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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 9:05:31 PM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		I'd say that translating that as "First- do no harm." certainly conveys the intent of the oath, even if the literal words are different.
 
I'd say that translating that as "First- do no harm." certainly conveys the intent of the oath, even if the literal words are different. 

I agree.  Only in a terminally warped mind would that be consistent with helping a torturer.




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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 9:12:22 PM   
chiaThePet


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Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the chief planner of the Sept. 11 attacks, told investigators that when
he was waterboarded, his pulse and oxygen level were monitored, and that a medical attendant
stopped the procedure on several occasions.

Unfortunate that most of the medical personal on hand to monitor the almost 3000 victims of
the September 11th attacks were pulverized along with them.

If only they could have stopped the procedure.

chia* (the pet)


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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 9:19:18 PM   
maybemaybenot


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Status: offline 		well said, chia  !

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 9:26:33 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
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From: Jersey
Status: offline 		Yes but other suspects, possibly innocent,  were being held and tortured as well.   Or at least, that's how it read to me.

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 9:32:00 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

Yes, it is quite complicated actually. Death is not the only way to alleve the suffering of the terminally ill. I do it every day. Palliative practitioners can alleve pain and suffering quite nicely with the right combinations of medicine, emotional, spiritual and hollistic support.
It's a topic for anothe thread, but you need look no further than Holland. Depression and arthritis are now classified as terminal illnesses and one qualifies for euthanasia with these diagnosis. People have been ethanized against their wishes to " open up a bed" for a non terminal patient.  So, yea, it's complicated

Sorry for the hijack.



The larger issue can certainly be made complex, the broader the perspective you choose to apply, but in the context of your simply-stated question, I don't think it's complicated at all. You asked how we who support assisted suicide reconcile the apparent contradiction between assisted suicide and the physician's obligation to do no harm. In general terms, that's my answer. A human being who is dying a painful death has the right to die in comfort and in peace, and forcing them to suffer longer and more deeply than is necessary is the greater harm. In the case of your specific examples, my answer would not apply, because those examples fall a lot closer to simple murder than assisted suicide. I would probably not consider those morally or ethically valid reasons to help someone end their life.


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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 9:39:53 PM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		To the poster's who wondered how much worse it might have been without a doctor there to monitor the interogation,I have one question.Are You Kidding Me?....Do you believe for a minute the doctor present was there for the benefit of the prisoner?His one sole function was to make sure no mistakes were made,dead men are not known for supplying intelligence....actionable or not(99% complete garbage garnered from these "sessions")

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 9:48:10 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet


Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the chief planner of the Sept. 11 attacks, told investigators that when
he was waterboarded, his pulse and oxygen level were monitored, and that a medical attendant
stopped the procedure on several occasions.

Unfortunate that most of the medical personal on hand to monitor the almost 3000 victims of
the September 11th attacks were pulverized along with them.



Even more unfortunate (for your argument, at any rate) is the fact that it's a total non-sequitur, even though it apparently has some visceral emotional appeal to you.


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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 9:50:40 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		The Dr. is there to keep the patient,errr... victim alive so he can be further tortured.

That`s not medicine.That`s skulduggery.

Bringing up 9/11?

That`s disgusting.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/7/2009 9:52:13 PM >

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 9:57:19 PM   
chiaThePet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet


Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the chief planner of the Sept. 11 attacks, told investigators that when
he was waterboarded, his pulse and oxygen level were monitored, and that a medical attendant
stopped the procedure on several occasions.

Unfortunate that most of the medical personal on hand to monitor the almost 3000 victims of
the September 11th attacks were pulverized along with them.

If only they could have stopped the procedure.



Even more unfortunate (for your argument, at any rate) is the fact that it's a total non-sequitur, even though it apparently has some visceral emotional appeal to you.



I respectfully disagree.

chia* (the pet)


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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 9:58:33 PM   
chiaThePet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The Dr. is there to keep the patient,errr... victim alive so he can be further tortured.

That`s not medicine.That`s skulduggery.

Bringing up 9/11?

That`s disgusting.


Yes, it was.

chia* (the pet)


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Love is a many splendid sting.

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 10:12:07 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		What I meant was hiding behind the 9/11 tragedy to justify torture was disgusting.

And btw,no information was extracted from KSM,in spite of what vice-treasonist dick cheney has claimed.

The ends never justify the means.Unless the ends are to become the evil we profess to be against.

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 10:17:17 PM   
chiaThePet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

What I meant was hiding behind the 9/11 tragedy to justify torture was disgusting.

And btw,no information was extracted from KSM,in spite of what vice-treasonist dick cheney has claimed.

The ends never justify the means.Unless the ends are to become the evil we profess to be against.


I stand by my words.

Directly in front of them.

chia* (the pet)


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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 10:18:22 PM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

A human being who is dying a painful death has the right to die in comfort and in peace, and forcing them to suffer longer and more deeply than is necessary is the greater harm.


I absolutely agree with this. To allow that is malpractice, however, pain and suffering can be alleviated without euthansia in most cases. We both agree that pain and suffering is the greater harm. We disagree on how to treat pain and suffering.
I forget the exact percentage, but in the neighborhood of 80% of patients who said they would  be euthanized if legal, said if their pain and or suffering were controlled, they would not seek euthanasia. < in the US> That speaks volumes to the poor job that is currently the standard of care we provide to terminally ill patients.

                      mbmbn

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 10:23:02 PM   
slvemike4u


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Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Chia I find your humor irreverent,acerbic and thoroughly enjoyable.....but IMO you couldn't be more wrong here....just my opinion.

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 10:24:56 PM   
chiaThePet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Chia I find your humor irreverent,acerbic and thoroughly enjoyable.....but IMO you couldn't be more wrong here....just my opinion.


I find I'd like to have unbridled sex with you.

Right or wrong.

chia* (the pet)


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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 10:26:19 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

To the poster's who wondered how much worse it might have been without a doctor there to monitor the interogation,I have one question.Are You Kidding Me?....Do you believe for a minute the doctor present was there for the benefit of the prisoner?His one sole function was to make sure no mistakes were made,dead men are not known for supplying intelligence....actionable or not(99% complete garbage garnered from these "sessions")


No, I am not kidding you, but there always exists a flip side to every action right or wrong. What I do want to know, is wtf are the western world doing when they engage in torture to extract information, information which might not be there in the first place. What message is sent out when these abhorrent practices leak into the world's  public arena, perhaps we can sort of accept it might happen in some parts of the world, but the US and with that I suspect the UK can hold it's head in shame too, as somewhere in it, the brits will be involved, they usually are.

But, Abu Ghraib, GTMO and now this, I think you should be asking was the information gleaned worth the disgrace brought to the country.


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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 10:29:25 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Chia I find your humor irreverent,acerbic and thoroughly enjoyable.....but IMO you couldn't be more wrong here....just my opinion.


Me too. At the risk of inspiring a fit of crazed Chia sexual frenzy in my general direction as well.


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Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 10:31:10 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Sounds torturous...

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 10:31:16 PM   
chiaThePet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Chia I find your humor irreverent,acerbic and thoroughly enjoyable.....but IMO you couldn't be more wrong here....just my opinion.


Me too. At the risk of inspiring a fit of crazed Chia sexual frenzy in my general direction as well.



Sorry babe, not into Bears.

chia* (the pet)


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Love is a many splendid sting.

You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 10:33:12 PM   
chiaThePet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Sounds torturous...


What the hell?

Might make your hair grow.

chia* (the pet)


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Love is a many splendid sting.

You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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