RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community?

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (Full Version)

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FirmhandKY -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 7:02:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u So you don't beleive we were involved in torturing prisoners at Gitmo? I think the better question to ask is, what is the basis of the report. The basis of the report is from 14 admitted AQ members, who have also admitted to mass killings of Americans, and have a political agenda to discredit the US. I guess, if Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, David Berkowitz and Charles Manson were the basis for an indictment of the US prison system, you'd all feel outraged as well? Or would you be a little more critical of the accusations? No, much of what is going on here is prayer at the liberal church of "bad america". Tell me ... has Obama maintained the Presidential exception for approval of "harsh interrogation methods"? Firm

slvemike4u -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 7:12:30 PM)
Perhaps you missed the actual point of my displeasure on this subject. I don't pray at the church of "bad america"....I happen to think America is, and should allways be, a shining light of freedom to those corners of the world where oppression is the norm. We tarnish that light when we adopt the methods we as a people decry.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 7:15:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Disagree with what? That the medical staff involved made "errors of judgement" at best? That they should be held accountable for their medical decisions? And that this is no longer about politics, but about medical ethics? What exactly do you disagree with? You insinuate that the torture was somehow justified: this is not the point of this thread. I think your disagreement is stewed in political arguments - that's why you're unable to make any kind of coherent case to justify this holy 'opinion' of yours. Nobody is damning you but yourself, and Owner and I aren't the only posters who argue alongside the same lines. Perhaps it bothers you that you are in the minority, but that's something you'd better be getting used to - in the end, your reasons are you own. I've made no statement one way or the other about the subject. With you, it is always about politics. You are an admitted partisan, willing to (I paraphrase) lie, condemn and distort in order to achieve your political objectives. You have so stated in the forum. barelynangel was quite rational, quite reasonable and logical on the subject, and you used snide remarks and condescension in an attempt to belittle and dismiss her insightful comments. I learned a long time ago that the basis of truth isn't subject to a vote, and just because the number of people who hold a similar opinion to mine is large, it doesn't mean my opinion is correct, and conversely that if a large number of people disagree with my opinion, that doesn't make my opinion wrong. So, I should take your umbrage serious, why, exactly? What I want to know - since you interjected - is why you believe that the 14 AQ members' statements are so credible that I should engage in a mass condemnation of the medical personnel who might have been present during their interrogations? Firm

slvemike4u -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 7:27:07 PM)
Okay lets not take the 14 "AQ" members word on this....there is ample alternative sources of information on what sort of pleasure palace was being run down there.

kittinSol -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 7:31:49 PM)
Don't take this badly: but however much you try, you're not a master of spin. You won't manage to divert from the subject of this thread. To others, I recommend they check out Oath Betrayed: Torture, Medical Complicity, and the War on Terror by Dr. Stephen Miles.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 7:35:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Perhaps you missed the actual point of my displeasure on this subject. I don't pray at the church of "bad america"....I happen to think America is, and should allways be, a shining light of freedom to those corners of the world where oppression is the norm. We tarnish that light when we adopt the methods we as a people decry. Mike, I'm not accusing you of such behavior. I'm discussing what I see going on with some members of the thread. An intelligent, unbiased observer could say that "torture" is what it is defined by each individual as being, and there can be (and are, constantly) disagreements on whether or not "harsh interrogation methods" are torture or not. The last administration had one definition. The current administration has (apparently) another definition. An unbiased observer would also question the reliability of the sources of accusations of torture, depending on the agenda of the people making the accusations. Are not these valid observations? Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 7:44:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Okay lets not take the 14 "AQ" members word on this....there is ample alternative sources of information on what sort of pleasure palace was being run down there. ahh, but Mike ... there have been no other discussion or links in this thread to any other such "alternative sources of information". Shall we wonder? Change the focus of the thread? Hijack? One of my points is that one should be somewhat critical of this report, simply based on easily discernible biases in the origin of the data. If you wish to discuss other "alternative sources of information", then I would submit that each such source is subject to the same critical analysis. This would change the entire focus of the thread, would it not? And, of course ... everyone knows the facts already ... don't they? Firm

slvemike4u -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 7:44:32 PM)
Firm,let me ask you this....how did you feel when your elected officials made an attempt to codify how much torture was too much torture.For me that is the crux of the issue....we, America should not have ever been strolling down that path...in my eyes that was Al Queda's greatest success. Would such a debate have ever taken place absent 9/11...would the search for euphemisms(enhanced interrogations,harsh interrogation methods) occurred at all Perhaps my vision of this country and what it stands for is naive.....

TheHeretic -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 7:49:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Tell me ... has Obama maintained the Presidential exception for approval of "harsh interrogation methods"? Firm Now, Firm. It just isn't fair of you to ask questions like that. [:D]

FirmhandKY -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 8:03:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Don't take this badly: but however much you try, you're not a master of spin. You won't manage to divert from the subject of this thread. Avoiding information and logic which does not necessarily support your point of view is not avoiding "spin", no matter how much you wish to claim otherwise. Firm

samboct -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 8:20:52 PM)
I'm sorry, but the more I think about this, the more muddled it seems. From my perspective- 1) I abhor torture and think that its immoral and useless. 2) The physicians or medical personnel at Gitmo clearly aided and abetted torture. I don't buy any of the argument that they may have "saved" lives- that would have been incidental to their intended function -which was to assist in torture by making sure it could be prolonged. I've already noted the disconcerting parallels with physicians that supervise executions. If the AMA and other doctors had any backbone, this practice would end in this country if all physicians would say that it violates their ethics. Unfortunately, some are willing to defer to the state for responsibility. There is one escape clause for the physians/medical personnel at Gitmo. Did they know they were going to supervise torture and what were their options once it was discovered? Were they threatened with incarceration in a similar facility with no recourse to lawyers? (The same treatment as the prisoners.) Such a threat would largely absolve them from responsibility since they were without free will in such a situation. However, my biggest grumble with punishing the physicians/medical personnel is that it's punishing the small fry and letting the big fish go. As far as I'm concerned there are parallels with the actions of the Bush administration in using lawyers to claim that they were operating within the law to accomplish immoral tasks as the Nazis. I suspect the legal arguments of both the Bush administration and the Nazis are deeply flawed- the Nazis were certainly illegal. If this is the case- then we need a war crimes trial for Bush and cronies. Convicting them of war crimes then allows punishment of those who facilitated their actions by following immoral orders. However, if the Bush administration is not convicted of war crimes- then why censure the doctors who have the same legal shield as those supervising executions- i.e. it was considered to be a legal activity? I don't see a way to ethically justify punishing the doctors/medical personnel if we don't at least try the people that gave the orders. Summary- If the Bush regime was illegal and is convicted, then those that took part in its crimes can be punished. However, if the Bush regime was deemed legal, then the actions of those operating within the law at the time cannot be punished- otherwise it's retroactive law. Sam

FirmhandKY -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 8:21:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Firm,let me ask you this....how did you feel when your elected officials made an attempt to codify how much torture was too much torture.For me that is the crux of the issue....we, America should not have ever been strolling down that path...in my eyes that was Al Queda's greatest success. Would such a debate have ever taken place absent 9/11...would the search for euphemisms(enhanced interrogations,harsh interrogation methods) occurred at all Perhaps my vision of this country and what it stands for is naive..... Mike, I wouldn't wish for you to change your vision of our country. I do not condone torture, and do not wish the US to practice it as a policy. I share this sentiment with you. We can, however, have a valid discussion about what interrogation methods we would be willing to accept. Actually, I hope that we as a nation will be successful in stopping terrorist attacks on our country without pain or bloodshed. If that happens, then I'll be very likely to admit that I'm wrong in how "harsh" of interrogations we should condone or allow. But experience has taught me that - however unfortunate - that will likely not be the case. And, so far, Obama has shown that he has some strong realist tendencies when it comes to foreign policy, which is why I asked about the "Presidential Exception". Firm

Owner59 -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 8:25:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Tell me ... has Obama maintained the Presidential exception for approval of "harsh interrogation methods"? Firm Now, Firm. It just isn't fair of you to ask questions like that. [:D] Again,this isn`t about the government or criminal charges(or the lack there of). Your obfuscations are weak and predictable.But this is outside of your narrow political aperture. It transcends your partisanship and game playing.Both of you. The government may let them off the hook but their colleagues don`t have to. Funny how neither of you stay on topic but a waste of time.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 8:27:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Tell me ... has Obama maintained the Presidential exception for approval of "harsh interrogation methods"? Firm Now, Firm. It just isn't fair of you to ask questions like that. [:D] I'm the Devil, I'm told. [:D][8D] I probably shouldn't have even brought it up, though, as there is enough for an entire other thread on the subject. Firm

Owner59 -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 8:32:34 PM)
I don`t think even satin would dump unwanted dogs on the street.

TheHeretic -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 8:38:10 PM)
Satin? Is that some new pop star or American Idol contestant I haven't heard of?

slvemike4u -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 8:44:52 PM)
Firm,the most recent statement on totrture policy(thanks for the legacy Bush and Cheney) was the 60 min interview on Jan 13th...in which he said...and I quote"I have said repeatedly that America doesn't torture,and I'm going to make sure we don't torture" he went on to say all this was an effort to "regain America's moral stature"

FirmhandKY -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 8:49:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 The government may let them off the hook but their colleagues don`t have to. In other words .... the legal system failed you ... let the mob have them? Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 8:52:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Firm,the most recent statement on totrture policy(thanks for the legacy Bush and Cheney) was the 60 min interview on Jan 13th...in which he said...and I quote"I have said repeatedly that America doesn't torture,and I'm going to make sure we don't torture" he went on to say all this was an effort to "regain America's moral stature" Bully for him. I hope his policies in this area are successful. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/8/2009 9:02:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Satin? Is that some new pop star or American Idol contestant I haven't heard of? nahhh .... just an attempted personal attack from someone who's vision of morality is monochromatic. Pretty funny, though. [:D] Firm

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