RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community?

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StrangerThan -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 8:12:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Stranger Than...is my position in this discussion somehow eluding you....or did I just completely misunderstand your last post? Must be eluding me. Apologies if it is. I admit to not being completely thorough in my reading though. Got a wild puppy, a pregnant woman, a pissed off cat, and my boss to deal with this morning. :)

slvemike4u -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 8:14:41 AM)
No worries at all...to be clear I think you summed up quite well how any American should feel about Gitmo and the goings on there.Have a nice day and remember to cut the mother to be some slack....

barelynangel -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 8:16:56 AM)
There are parameters people WORK UNDER. Its not a black and white situation. TO USE WORDS like torture instead of the WHOLE concept, will cause an emotional reaction because the mind is capable of creating its own situation and such. Murder is murder -- someone is killed by another -- of course there are differing degrees but still. Torture however, is such a vague emotionally reactive word, that more than just saying doctors participated in torture is ridiculous and emotional speaking. As much as people don't like it, these types of cases HAVE to be approached by the cold realm of facts and evidence along with experts and intent/motivation whatever you wish to call it. This situation can reasonably be discussed without resorting to the OUTCRY of TORTURE OMG. grins, your limitus test sorry, these situations are not simple. But again, if you want to say OMG they participated in torture, i guess as a civilian or an observer you have a right to your perception of being an observer mostly receiving third party information. Just out of curiosity, if you were watching these medical professionals in action outside of the TORTURE, would you be able to identify them BY THEIR ACTIONS that they were participants in torture? if you could not, would you trust doctors as a whole less? You again are being emotional based on what you THINK occured. Have you or anyone read statements and actual depositions of these medical professionals? Has anyone even remotely stopped and said we haven't heard from ..... Nope, you take media information and not applied the whole. You can have your opinion but just be careful about figuring people are guilty because what you see isn't always what is occuring. angel

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 8:18:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan Must be eluding me. Apologies if it is. I admit to not being completely thorough in my reading though. Got a wild puppy, a pregnant woman, a pissed off cat, and my boss to deal with this morning. What a day you're having, when dealing with your boss is the part you're probably looking forward to the most!

slvemike4u -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 8:23:52 AM)
Well barelynangel not using the word torture when discussing whether or not Doctor's should be sanctioned for participating in....er....torture is disingenuous at best,downright dishonest at worst.Would you be able to spot a murderer when he is not actually killing some one...of course not. If as a doctor you are asked to preside over an interrogation...supplying medical advice as to whether or not the pat...er vict...er prisoner can continue...you are involved in torture....It really is that simple. If it walks like a duck,quacks like a duck...well you get the point.

StrangerThan -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 8:30:54 AM)
Yeah, and I get to add a 3 year old to the mix after day care is over. (Puppy and cat are squaring off under my chair as I type.) And who says men aren't capable of multi-tasking? Lol

slvemike4u -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 8:46:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan Yeah, and I get to add a 3 year old to the mix after day care is over. (Puppy and cat are squaring off under my chair as I type.) And who says men aren't capable of multi-tasking? Lol Women usually.

TreasureKY -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 8:50:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol PS: KY, I just saw your post above... you really ought to see a quack for that thing [;)] your eye. Is picking on how often I use emoticons to express my amusement the best argument you can make? [:D] quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol "There are accepted roles for health professionals working in recognized, official, places of detention such as police stations and prisons wherein the health professionals have the health care and best interests of the detainee as their primary consideration. To this end, when a person enters an official detention facility or system, a medical assessment of their medical status is required in order to meet their current and ongoing health needs. In the case of a normal, lawful interrogation, a physician may be asked to provide a medical opinion, within the usual bounds of medical confidentiality, as to whether existing mental or physical health problems would preclude the individual from being questioned. Secondly, a physician may rightly be requested to provide medical treatment to a person suffering a medical emergency during questioning. This accepted role of the physician, or any other health professional, clearly does not extend to ruling on the permissibility, or not, of any form of physical or psychological ill-treatment. The physician, and any other health professionals, are expressly prohibited from using their scientific knowledge and skills to facilitate such practices in any way. On the contrary, the role of the physician and any other health professional involved in the care of detainees is explicitly to protect them from such ill-treatment and there can be no exceptional circumstances invoked to excuse this obligation. With the exceptions detailed in the above paragraph, any interrogation process that requires a health profession to either pronounce on the subject’s fitness to withstand such a procedure, or which requires a health professional to monitor the actual procedure, must have inherent health risks. As such, the interrogation process is contrary to international law and the participation of health personnel in such a process is contrary to international standards of medical ethics. In the case of the alleged participation of health personnel in the detention and interrogation of the fourteen detainees, their primary purpose appears to have been to serve the interrogation process, and not the patient. In so doing the health personnel have condoned, and participated, in ill-treatment." From the ICRC report. http://www.nybooks.com/icrc-report.pdf So who died and made the Red Cross, God? quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol 3. Their professional associations are responsible for any professional sanctions that will come their way as a result of their actions pertaining to the torture of prisonners. Exactly. Any associations that the medical personnel belong to... if they belong to any at all... will make the determination based on their own criteria and opinion. Any discussion here is an exercise in expressing our own personal opinions and quite frankly moot. I'm sure if you could manage to figure out the identify the individuals who participated, what their medical credentials are, and what particular code of ethics that they adhere to (i.e., the associations they belong to), you could contact those associations and they would be more than delighted for you to tell them what to do. I'm guessing they will be greatly relieved to find out that you've already determined that their code of ethics have been violated and that to consider otherwise is "a disingenuous exercise in trying to redefine 'medical ethics' in order to diminish the gravity of the facts in question". Whew! They sure dodged that bullet.

slvemike4u -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 8:52:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel Just a comment, perhaps you should look more closely at your friend kittnsol and her responses to people who don't agree with her i would say the forum but that would take you forever, just this thread alone. Just a thought before you start flinging things at people for the SAME THING your friend is doing. Just thought i would point it out so you don't look like a hypocrit condoning the same behavior in your friend -- unless of course your next post is going to be reaming her the same way for the same thing. We shall see i guess. angel And there I thought you were going to tell us how to discuss torture...while avoiding using the word torture...oh well,maybe the next post?

slvemike4u -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 8:55:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol PS: KY, I just saw your post above... you really ought to see a quack for that thing [;)] your eye. Is picking on how often I use emoticons to express my amusement the best argument you can make? [:D] quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol "There are accepted roles for health professionals working in recognized, official, places of detention such as police stations and prisons wherein the health professionals have the health care and best interests of the detainee as their primary consideration. To this end, when a person enters an official detention facility or system, a medical assessment of their medical status is required in order to meet their current and ongoing health needs. In the case of a normal, lawful interrogation, a physician may be asked to provide a medical opinion, within the usual bounds of medical confidentiality, as to whether existing mental or physical health problems would preclude the individual from being questioned. Secondly, a physician may rightly be requested to provide medical treatment to a person suffering a medical emergency during questioning. This accepted role of the physician, or any other health professional, clearly does not extend to ruling on the permissibility, or not, of any form of physical or psychological ill-treatment. The physician, and any other health professionals, are expressly prohibited from using their scientific knowledge and skills to facilitate such practices in any way. On the contrary, the role of the physician and any other health professional involved in the care of detainees is explicitly to protect them from such ill-treatment and there can be no exceptional circumstances invoked to excuse this obligation. With the exceptions detailed in the above paragraph, any interrogation process that requires a health profession to either pronounce on the subject’s fitness to withstand such a procedure, or which requires a health professional to monitor the actual procedure, must have inherent health risks. As such, the interrogation process is contrary to international law and the participation of health personnel in such a process is contrary to international standards of medical ethics. In the case of the alleged participation of health personnel in the detention and interrogation of the fourteen detainees, their primary purpose appears to have been to serve the interrogation process, and not the patient. In so doing the health personnel have condoned, and participated, in ill-treatment." From the ICRC report. http://www.nybooks.com/icrc-report.pdf So who died and made the Red Cross, God? quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol 3. Their professional associations are responsible for any professional sanctions that will come their way as a result of their actions pertaining to the torture of prisonners. Exactly. Any associations that the medical personnel belong to... if they belong to any at all... will make the determination based on their own criteria and opinion. Any discussion here is an exercise in expressing our own personal opinions and quite frankly moot. I'm sure if you could manage to figure out the identify the individuals who participated, what their medical credentials are, and what particular code of ethics that they adhere to (i.e., the associations they belong to), you could contact those associations and they would be more than delighted for you to tell them what to do. I'm guessing they will be greatly relieved to find out that you've already determined that their code of ethics have been violated and that to consider otherwise is "a disingenuous exercise in trying to redefine 'medical ethics' in order to diminish the gravity of the facts in question". Whew! They sure dodged that bullet. A small point to be sure,but aren't most discussions here just our opinions...consequently ,as you put it ,moot.I for one was never under the illusiion that anything "said" here matter at all...other than to speak to our own value's.

kittinSol -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 8:56:42 AM)
So... this is definitely a polarising issue then [&:] .

scarlethiney -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 8:59:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct "I challenge people to discuss this whole issue in detail without ever bringing in the word torture or prisoners or anything relating to this emtional trigger. I don't think people can because its not the actions people are discussing its the word TORTURE they are discussing." Good Grief! That's like saying discuss the actions of a camp guard at Auschwitz without using the word "murder". Here's a simple litmus test for you- and the board. 1) If you're a physician, you're there to practice medicine. Who's your patient- the sadist doing the torture or the person being tortured? 2) The role of physician is of a healer. If the physician cannot help the healing process (or at least make a decent stab at it based on available knowledge) then they are supposed to stand aside. 3) How can you possibly call a physicians actions which result in pain, fear, and physical and psychological damage to his/her patient with no possible health benefits anything other than aiding and abetting torture? Is this good medicine? Would it be good medicine in a normal doctor patient relationship? Consider the greater ramifications of your claim. If these medical personnel aren't condemned, then how do physicians build the necessary trust for caring for their patients? Would you go to a physician which thought that it was acceptable to allow the torture of a patient in his/her care? I'd punch him out! (and they can put me in jail for doing so.) If that's your defense of these physicians, then like many lawyers, you fail to examine the consequences of your actions. Your claim that ethics are not well understood is neither accurate nor relevant. From my perspective, the only possible defense of these physicians/medical personnel is claiming that the orders of the state trump personal ethics. This argument is the justification for physicians to be present at executions and the actions of the physicians at Gitmo are clearly similar and under similar circumstances. I agree with Kittin- this is one more reason to get rid of executions- because it allows a legal loophole for torture. Sam Perfectly put sam thanks!

barelynangel -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 9:00:11 AM)
oh vey, okay well let's see who knows all the ins and outs of what actually happened, why it was happening and the specifics of what the medics were doing as well as statements of people who actually KNEW what was happening. Who can take actual instances of what happened and place them in the specifics of the whole reasoning, motivation, and determination of parameters people had to work within. Or are people going to just jump up and down and say torture torture -- how awful and wrong based on their BELIEFS of what torture is. I mean hell to me beating someone black and blue is TORTURE and is not ethically responsible based on all the things that happen when it occurs as well as potentials but i bet many people would object to same. I also believe much of what people see as torture is a concept of aggressive interrogation. I am not condoning it, but yeah, unfortunately having seen what i have as to what humans are capable of doing to each other, i understand it. I have seen what humans are capable of doing to each other, and well, most people really have never been tested as to their ethical decisions. To me, these people were and until we know how they perceive it to be ethical, i can't condone it to be unethical. I have never had my ethics tested to this point, sure i can talk about it and discuss it with a bunch of nicknames online lol but i have no clue if in a situation how my ethics will come into play and how i will ultimately define them based on the ultimate of testing of my beliefs. But of you are simply trying to start crap with me because it makes you look cool, don't bother. Its not my definition of a cool person. angel

scarlethiney -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 9:02:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel quote: US citizen, torture is something you should despise What constitutes torture? Many times what many civilians would call torture is simply aggressive interrogation. angel And you know this to be true how????? What do you personally know about "aggressive interrogation"?? Please give qualified examples.[8\|]

ModeratorEleven -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 9:05:04 AM)
Ok folks, everyone needs to calm down here. XI

Aneirin -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 9:06:23 AM)
Ok, maybe all this is a storm in a tea cup, maybe the report has come out and in all reality nothing will be done about it, but, the least that should be done is the naming and shaming of these people. To be fair, these medics that participated in these activities, I don't suppose they did it under duress, if so, and they knew what they were doing they should hold no shame for their actions and there argue their case, it should'nt bother them and they can put that down on their resume, they aided in the torture of people. Now, if what they believe in is on their resume for all prospective employers to see, it is down to the employers to decide whether they want to employ them or not and there they might wonder about their public face when the information leaks out. But on the whole regarding those in the care professions, information should be available about a medics employment history, as who are we, the patient to know what our doctor has got upto in the past, who knows what history the medics are hiding, I wonder how much incompetance is in there, people reprimanded by medical boards, but not in the public eye. An old boy network so to speak.

kittinSol -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 9:07:27 AM)
I presume that you are not a doctor? This would explain why you have never been in the situation wherein you would have to choose whether to compromise your code of ethics or not. I trust doctors to do the right thing, not to participate in the mistreatment and abuse of prisonners. If you feel you're able to compromise your moral values, have at it. Personally, I prefer to live in a world where medical professionals don't choose to compromise theirs for the benefit of... of what again? That's right: absolutely fuck all.

slvemike4u -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 9:07:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel oh vey, okay well let's see who knows all the ins and outs of what actually happened, why it was happening and the specifics of what the medics were doing as well as statements of people who actually KNEW what was happening. Who can take actual instances of what happened and place them in the specifics of the whole reasoning, motivation, and determination of parameters people had to work within. Or are people going to just jump up and down and say torture torture -- how awful and wrong. I have seen what humans are capable of doing to each other, and well, most people really have never been tested as to their ethical decisions. To me, these people were and until we know how they perceive it to be ethical, i can't condone it to be unethical. I have never had my ethics tested to this point, sure i can talk about it and discuss it with a bunch of nicknames online lol but i have no clue if in a situation how my ethics will come into play and how i will ultimately define them based on the ultimate of testing of my beliefs. But of you are simply trying to start crap with me because it makes you look cool, don't bother. Its not my definition of a cool person. angel Well from a nickname on line I would suggest that what you proposed ,as far as an investigation into the actual Facts...is exactley what many of these nicknames are talking about.No one here is advocating wily nily sanctioning of medical personal without some form of due process from the professional associations. It does seem amusing that you would decry the lack of this process for the Doctors who presumably oversaw these "enhanced interogations" on prisoners denied the same rights...Doesn't this trouble you at all...or is it only the rights of these medical personal you are concerned with?

kittinSol -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 9:28:49 AM)
So who will it be, the CIA or the Red Cross?

samboct -> RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by med.community? (4/9/2009 9:43:28 AM)
It strikes me that arguing over the definition of torture in this fashion, i.e. what exactly were the specifics done- is a page right out of the Nazi handbook. Bear in mind that guards at Auschwitz were not hired to engage in mass murder- they were there for the security of the state and to assist in the elimination of sub-humans including Jews, gypsies homosexuals, Poles, Russians, the mentally retarded etc. Rather than using a narrow definition of torture- let's look at the conditions in these camps overall, shall we? How would any of you like to be kidnapped, taken to a prison, denied access to a lawyer, denied contact with your families and loved ones, denied knowing what specific crimes you were guilty of, and told that unless you "cooperated" you would be held indefinitely. And if somebody fingered you, you might be given an "aggressive interrogation". We threw away our laws and replaced them with what can at best be called legal chicanery over what constitutes allowable physical torture but this whole argument obscures the larger picture- to whit- false imprisonment to provide information is also a form of torture. Lawyers can argue over whether or not this is torture, but I suspect the rest of us are content to use Oliver Wendell Holmes precedent of his definition of pornography- "I know it when I see it." to define torture- and this most certainly qualifies. From my perspective EVERYONE in that camp has undergone psychological torture at a minimum, and clearly some were tortured physically as well. Arguing over the exact form of the physical torture is like arguing over the methods used in an extermination camp. Was hanging preferred over cyanide? How about shooting? Is the person who gassed another individual guilty of a different crime than a guard who shot an inmate? Lawyers can argue over such details- to me they're irrelevant. The actions of the Bush administration are one of the reasons that politics has deteriorated so badly in this country although I think things are improving. In contrast to some posters- I have the courage to not want to falsely imprison people for my own supposed safety, and I will accept the risk of dealing with another terrorist attack. We have acted as a nation of sniveling cowards, torturing people for our own "security" and the world and our country is a far worse place for it. Sam

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