RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (Full Version)

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subtlebutterfly -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/9/2009 12:39:34 PM)

I believe you always start with some kind of respect for a person, at least you don't start off by disrespecting them.

Out in the real world..I don't think it matters a thing. Within the lifestyle..it could matter, depending on each persons definition of submissive/slave.
In my opinion it doesn't matter.
and in terms of respect..I have respect for myself..and that's kind of all I need. I don't feel the need to prove myself to anyone but myself.
If the person doesn't respect me then so be it, it's not my problem. Would I like them to respect me? of course..but as I said..it's their problem, not mine.
As long as I can justifiably have respect for myself I believe others will have respect for me too. Those who don't.. they simply are not my problem.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/9/2009 12:49:12 PM)

quote:

...So, i wonder if that also intereferes with my ability to be submissive? i mean, how do you turn it off?...


this slave has no idea, really.
 
she has only been able to turn "submissive" off, situationally, by acting as if she was really dominant.  it works out ok with the four-legged variety of pups, but with people, not so much in the long term.  she has spent serious time working on her acting skills in front of a mirror to improve.
 
there was a brief 3 week period of time at age 19, out of her 42 years, that this slave spent as independent and dominant over her life and it didn't turn out very well at all.
 
sorry this slave can't be of much more assistance, but perhaps someone else can give you some experienced perspective that would help.
Edited by Merc:
quote:

this slave has no idea, really.

I do...
Respect is not label driven for the simple reason that most often the label doesn't represent the nature of the person who has applied it to themselves. It is not uncommon where a self represented 'submissive' is a dominant leader. Conversely, a representation of 'dominant' can be a person who sits around playing with his flogger waiting for someone to give them permission to use it on them. I can respect both ends of the paradigm or neither depending upon the person behind the label. 

These labels are so people know a person's sensation preference more than anything else and are totally irrelevant to whether I "respect" them. Hang around, interact, show yourself to be a person of integrity and I respect the hell out of you. Sub or Dom, female or male; that doesn't change just because I've seen you hanging from a swing in my backyard with your ass up in the air and your balls in a vice screaming like a baby while getting hit by a paddle.

We are ALL slaves to our desired sensations. Having the confidence to act upon them is admirable whether that results in a person being a dominating submissive, a submitting dominant, or submitting submissive and dominating dominant. How you are with people, and how you interact with them while recovering from the last sensation and waiting for the next is where personal respect is either earned or not.

It maybe just me, but a collar doesn't generate instant disrespect anymore than seeing a person wearing a flogger or single-tail on their belt generates respect. I give everyone I see who is 'out there' confidently representing themselves in any 'lifestyle' manner credit for being 'public'. Respect comes over time and experience. Not that anyone should seek it or need it.



Missokyst -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/9/2009 1:16:02 PM)

good timing on this post. 
In my own group we are having a minor bruhaha about something similar.  A newcomer to my group recently introduced herself and said she thought she is submissive.  Another group member welcomed her.. and stated that submissives should use the lower case when giving out their name.
Holey smokes..! lol the furor this caused.  I don't mind that one person chooses to dictate this policy within their own domain, but it should not be set as a "rule" within another. 
I like the guy, and he does this stuff IRL more than most people I have met.  But that minor faux pas, by not saying this is how he chooses to do it, caused an uproar.  Which.. lol for our group is great.  It gets people talking.

BUT... although I, who is sub, and runs the group gets a fair degree of respect among us will never get that same validation from a few die hard subs or doms who have the idea that the dom is always right.  Or that the dynamic of dom over sub carries across the board.

Some people just need to feel that one way immediately means respect.
We just live with it.
Kyst



colouredin -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/9/2009 1:44:41 PM)

Some people are assholes some people arent. Some people make interesting additions to a group, some dont. Some have reputations which may or may not be true. Its not just BDSM or sub vs dom its people, anywhere. I am sure that some assholes dont want to talk to people or dont value their view because of their oriantation just like some people assume I am stupid because I am a woman or had a wonderful upbringing because I am middle class. There are always people with prejudice.



MsFlutter -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/9/2009 2:21:41 PM)

credibility is credibility - from whom it springs is, to me, typically irrelevant. I have never discounted an individual's wisdom or practicality based on whether they are dominant or submissive.



LaTigresse -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/9/2009 2:42:10 PM)

Then there is the whole issue of what is credible, and worthy of respect, to one person is worthless to another.



NorthernGent -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/9/2009 3:01:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

So is our "standing" in our communities only valid as long as we are being "good little girls" and not making waves or speaking out?  



That's the problem with groups/communities. Hierarchies form and 'respect' is given according to group politics. But, it's rather like a celebrity complaining about the media - if you don't like group behaviour, then don't join the group.



SailingBum -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/9/2009 3:30:22 PM)

girls,boys, gay straight bisexual makes no dif to me I can respect you, think your credible.  However I can disagree and think your views are wrong all at the same time.  2 different issues

BadOne



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/9/2009 3:37:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

It's just like the contra temps in opera. It''s a bit like in Carmen with all the soldiers, or the male lead with all the rebels or male doms together, and they're all there assembled on stage, and this male lead is striding across the stage in the opposite direction singing, Men! Men! I want to talk to you.. and they're all stood there like lemons behind him.

And it's like the virgin that he's in love with is like a brown or purple velvet double decker bus, this huge domme woman, and she's of course singing the high notes, Ohhhh! Ohhhhh!, and he's supposed to be the young grenadier or gunner and he's about 59 years old and wearing these beige tan tights with ample cleavage. And he's singing, Men here's what to do...

We'll attack the castle, and then we'll pinch all their stuff and fuck off. And then you get the leading woman, or the diva, and he will walk over to her and sing, I'm going away now. I'm going away, over the hill, until I'm gone, gone, gone away.. Over there, down the valley, up that mountain over there.. And away over there as far as you can see... Over the horizon..

Oh you could see it if that hill wasn't in the way...

And she turns back to him and sings Ohhh! Don't go away. Please don't go away. Please don't go over there.. Oooooh! Don't go away.

Yes I must he sings I must go away.. Away from here.. Away from you.. You're not submissive.. And your mother gets on my nerves.. I'm going over the hill..I'm going over that hill which you can't see...But once I get to the top I will tell you if there's any decent munches there..

O Gustav she sings, Stay here, I'll give you all my money, we'll find you female slaves.. I'll join in any time you like.. My mother knows some submissives too... We can set you up in business..

That is of no interest to me he sings back. I'm not interested at all, I'm not interested because.... I'm going away, I'm going away over that hill, down the valley, I'm going away...

And then the lights dim.. There's a sort of reddish light being shone on the two of them.. And he sings I'm going away, I'm going away, I'm going away over the hill.. Over there, over there, over there, I'm going away..

And then two more male doms appear and start singing He's going away, he's going away, over the hill, he's going away..

We all know, he told us earlier, he's going away, over there, he's going away, going away...He's dumping her, she's fucking crap, he's going away, going away.. He doesn't care, Over there, he's going away..

And then the lights go dim again and the entire company comes in, all the male submissives, female submissives, switches, female dommes, male doms, fetishists and even Moderator 11, and they stand together and sing He's going away, away, far over there..


Holy smokes. I've really got to learn Italian. Carmen's one of my favorite operas, and yet all these years I never dreamed that was what they were saying.



IronBear -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/9/2009 4:05:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

Whenever I see these threads started on what goes on in the local community it just makes me - and I'm sorry, but I just can't help myself - have these mental images of The Collarme Opera which like most operas is two thirds too long.




I agree here although I liken Collarme as being more like the dreaded "Days Of Our Lives" than opera which I love and especially Carmen which I will happily listen to regularly. And no I do not sing opera under the shower, in the dunny or anywhere else. I sing blues and C & W for fun and Italian Love songs for pleasure. Still stella lass, you gave me a much needed laugh with your synopsis.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

So is our "standing" in our communities only valid as long as we are being "good little girls" and not making waves or speaking out?  



That's the problem with groups/communities. Hierarchies form and 'respect' is given according to group politics. But, it's rather like a celebrity complaining about the media - if you don't like group behaviour, then don't join the group.


Personally I have no issue with hierarchies provided they are formed on both experience and management abilities. What does irks me is the cliques which tend to exclude those who are not arse kissing and ego stroking the leader of the clique. I find brown noses most unattractive.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/9/2009 6:00:15 PM)

Here's an anecdote, Erin.  This was years ago, when we were having Ater Lorum events.  I was DMing as usual, and having to WORK!  Why?  Because the men were consistently interfering with the women's scenes!  "Helping" by offering a toy, arranging rope, all sorts of little things that they would never have tolerated.

So, the next day on Michigan BDSM I posted a post about how we really appreciate the gesture guys, but we will ask for your assistance if we need it.

Can you say FLAME?  Wooooooooo!

The Gorean contingent was the worst.  One local charmer said that I was "on the rag or off my meds or both" for having posted such a statement.  Another was shocked that I would be so sexist!   When my crew piped up to speak on my behalf they were told that I was a respected member of the community and I DID NOT NEED to be defended!

All RIGHTY then!  [:D]

(the one who made the "on the rag" remark will not even make EYE contact with me!  honestly, I got a laugh out of the whole interchange, most of all because the men who were flinging shit would never in their DREAMS have spoken those words to my face.  Which is too bad, because I would have respected their opinions a great deal more...)

The moral?  If we are paid respect in our hometown, it is by virtue of aggressively maintaining our turf.  I don't know how it is elsewhere, but a woman's voice is not the one listened to first.



Andalusite -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/9/2009 6:16:18 PM)

I don't expect a show of respect from anyone. I've only had trouble with a couple of people being disrespectful, but I don't think it was due to my BDSM orientation. I tend to be a bit socially submissive, especially with strangers who are older than me. Some people have assumed that that means I'll also be submissive toward them on a D/s basis, and so I had to set them straight on it. Three of them have argued with me about it, so I told them off and avoided interacting with them further.



AlexandraLynch -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/9/2009 6:54:11 PM)

As a female dom who is the only one at my local munch, I'm very careful about how I act and project myself in lifestyle situations. (Including here.)  But the person who founded our local munch is a sub woman, and she and her collar sister are the people to talk to about things at the play parties. If need be, their dom will come in and talk to people. But they are both women who have the ability to stand up not only for themselves, but the really excellent space we have created for kinksters in our local munch, and do so as required. I respect them totally, and respect people who submit as much as people who dominate.



slaveluci -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/9/2009 7:37:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Now I know there are a whole bunch of folks out there who see the whole idea of a "community" as an illusion. But those aren't the folks I am interested in hearing the opinions of. I don't say that to be disrespectful in the least...but if you can't grasp the concept of being involved in a circle of the same people for many years as a "community", then I doubt that your feedback could be relevant to those of us who do see it that way.

As one who is vocal about having no desire to join a "community" - local or otherwise - I feel the need to clarify a bit here. It's not that I can't "grasp the concept" of it. On the contrary, I totally grasp it and want nothing to do with the drama and headgames. As Northern Gent said, if you don't like group behavior then don't join the group. I don't, so I don't. That doesn't mean I can't "grasp" the concept. End of clarification[;)]

luci



littlesarbonn -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/9/2009 8:03:50 PM)

My first mistress and I kind of had some problems with this because I was very well known in the bdsm community. I was involved in a lot of groups, and I did a lot of the background work for these groups, so that everyone knew who I was, but I mainly kept to the shadows. Well, my mistress was one of those rock star mistresses that got a lot of attention pretty much everywhere she went, and I was always very proud to be with her. However, when we started heading into community-based situations, she was always taken aback because people knew who I was and often made a huge point of wanting to come over and talk to me, when I was with my owner. In the beginning, it was kind of stressful because she really didn't know what to make of it (I don't think she'd ever been in a situation where she wasn't the center of attention and quite honestly, the life of the party). Then she sort of realized it was a part of her ownership of me (she had put the collar on someone who had this sort of attention, and she was mature enough to actually start thinking it was pretty cool).

That didn't always work with everyone after her, however. And now, fortunately, I've been so out of the community now that most people don't know who I am, so I doubt that would be a situation ever again (at least not in the near future).



LadyPact -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 6:32:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Having been very active in my local lifestyle communities for many years now, and having conducted myself within those communities with a high degree of integrity that has been proven consistent over the course of many situations that have put it to the test, I had come to believe that I had "earned" a certain level of respect that should not be dependent on orientation. Afterall, while I am submissive to my partner I am most certainly not submissive or in service to all. I'm beginning to wonder now though if it is all just really an illusion.

When the shit hits the proverbial fan...does a submissive voice carry the same weight or credibility as a dominant one? To take it out even farther, does a dominant females voice carry the same weight as a dominant male voice? Watching some recent events play out from a "fly on the wall" perspective suggests to me that I've been kidding myself in my thinking that outside of our own personal relationships where we knowingly and consentually engage in power exchanges, we would have equal standing within our communities.

So is our "standing" in our communities only valid as long as we are being "good little girls" and not making waves or speaking out?  

Now I know there are a whole bunch of folks out there who see the whole idea of a "community" as an illusion. But those aren't the folks I am interested in hearing the opinions of. I don't say that to be disrespectful in the least...but if you can't grasp the concept of being involved in a circle of the same people for many years as a "community", then I doubt that your feedback could be relevant to those of us who do see it that way.


It's an interesting topic, Erin.  Thank you for bringing it up.  I think it might be something that you and I have discussed (or something somewhat related) before.  The timing is interesting as it came up by another party about a month or so ago with Me.

Two parts of My opinion on the matter would be that it depends on the amount of time one has spent in the community and the type of people making up that local community.  Another factor is how the person was seen by that community, regardless of their relationship status.  That was probably pretty vague, so let Me explain.

A while back, I was talking with someone who had the good fortune of being under consideration by a prominent leather Mistress.  She had been a part of that community for a very long time and was very respected.  The submissive had only been in the community for a couple of years, and was very pleasantly surprised at the opportunities being associated with this Domme afforded.  New friends, additional social invitations, and so on.

Long story short, things didn't work out between the two of them.  The submissive found out very quickly that any elevated social status that he had, ended when that dynamic ended.  In fact, he'd only had it because the Dominant who had him under consideration had it.  The only reason he'd acquired it was from her coat tails.

The reason that I'm relating that little story is because, quite often that is the way these things work out.  I know it's not especially what you want to hear, erin, but many times the "community" will side with a D type over a s type.  At least until a period of time goes by and people realize it was the s type with more integrity.

Why this happens, I really couldn't say.  I have no basis in logic for why people automatically side with the D type.  My speculations on the matter wouldn't amount to a hill of beans, so I'm not even going to post them.  As I believe we've discussed before, it is something that happens.

What I'm better at addressing would be your second question.  That being the one about if a female Dominant's voice carries the same weight as that of her male counterparts.

In My personal experience, I would have to say that it does.  I moved here to GA less than four years ago and only got involved in the community for less time than that.  In that short amount of time, My name's become pretty good here and in some of the surrounding communities as well.  I attribute that to a few factors.  One is that I hear I'm a reasonably skilled Top.  Another is that some very long standing members of the Atlanta community took a liking to Me when I showed up on the scene.  (I often ask one who has thirty plus years in the lifestyle why he is and has always been so good to Me.)

I don't think I'm unique to this.  I've seen it be the same for other female Dominants who have been long standing members of the community or have very good Topping skills be just as highly respected as the men.



thishereboi -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 7:18:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Oh it has nothing to do with validation or a personal quest for a high level of respect. It is about being taken seriously though and not being ridiculed or condescended to. For the record, this post is NOT about me. Watching what is going on on another thread on these boards right now has me wondering....


I don't see that attitude in people I meet in real life in this area. I know MiChatOhs was run for years by a committee of submissives and I never noticed that they didn't grt treated with respect in the community. For the few years I was on the committee I never noticed it either. I have seen this attitude on the forums, but I try to ignore it. I think the interenet tends to bring out the worse in some people.



kdsub -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 7:36:50 AM)

Ladypact maybe I am misunderstanding but to me at least, respect has nothing to do with inclusiveness in social circles. I respect many people but do not choose to associate with them on a social basis.

The fact that the sub was not included in a group of friends after the breakup has nothing to do with people respecting him.

Butch



LadyPact -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 7:54:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Ladypact maybe I am misunderstanding but to me at least, respect has nothing to do with inclusiveness in social circles. I respect many people but do not choose to associate with them on a social basis.

The fact that the sub was not included in a group of friends after the breakup has nothing to do with people respecting him.

Butch



You'd be amazed at how many places I end up going, things I get to do, and people I get to rub shoulders with because of the respect angle.  You certainly don't think it's all due to My award winning personality, do you?  LOL.



GreedyTop -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 8:28:24 AM)

I think it's your great legs, Lady P ;) 



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