RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (Full Version)

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SteelofUtah -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 8:40:03 AM)

I think there is a Social Mentality for some people who seem to think that the more people who speak highly of them the more important they are. This was most of my problem with the first community I joined. I didn't care if you were a Dom or a sub, I wanted to talk and hang out with you. Those who got all bent of formality quickly became someone I no longer wanted to associate with.

Most of the problems that I have had have been with Dominant Women who wanted me to treat them differently that I would anyone else and when I refused claimed it was because they were female.

One perfect example was when I was sitting at the SinCityD/sNetwork Munch and some Domme came over, she had never said more than 3 words to me, set down her purse and said "Watch This and make sure no one takes it." I looked at her and said "I'm not going to be responsible for your purse and maybe try asking next time." her next words were "I'm not your submissive don't talk to me like I am." At this time the little hampster on the wheel in my brain took a half step and for a moment was doing somersaults in the wheel as I tried to asertain how me telling her it's nice to ask and that I won't be responsible for someone's purse especially someone I don't know was treating her like "My" sub but her basically telling me to watch her property was not the same thing she was accusing me of.

I run into women like this all the time. Usually ones who are active in the "Community" either who Host Munches or Parties and who do it for the sole purpose of being known, rarely to make anything "Better" in the community.

Now before anyone thinks I'm singleing out a gender, I know MANY more Men who act as though the WHOLE world revolves around them because thier Mamma called them "Sun". These wastes of space are common but there are so many of them that in any given social group they have a large enough base of "Friends" that to any argument there is people who rally for them. I tend not to have to many problems with them. Why? Because I have a Penis and they aren't interested in Penises they want Pussy and they think every woman is a just dying to service them.

Yes there are MANY men like this. Vanilla and Kink world over. Many but not all. Just as not every sub is looking for a kinky bedroom life and really has no desire to submit not every Dominant Male assumes because someone has tits that they are subserviant or a bitch. The way it is preceived is where I think the issue lies.

If one assumes that because someone doesn't care for them that it is because they are a Dominant Female when the reality is that they aren't liked because they are a raging bitch, then the Dominant Female is part of their own problem. Just like if a Dominant assumes that because they are a Dominant that they have the freedom to treat anyone as a lesser being without an agreement to such and rage about how rude a Dominant Female is when she doesn't cower before him then he is part of his own problem.

If you feel that you have to value your own status more than carring yourself in a polite manner then it is easy to argue that one must agressivly hold onto any leverage they get, I , however choose to just enjoy what I do and not fuss over who thinks I am this and who thinks I am that. In Recovery we are taught what other people think of us in none of our buiness, you offer yourself to be open to discussion on how one feels but you don't try to force them to feel some way about you that doesn'y come naturally.

Steel



LadyPact -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 8:49:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

I think it's your great legs, Lady P ;) 

You are too lovable for words some days, GT!



thetammyjo -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 9:17:24 AM)

A person who has shown him/herself to be of value in a community will always have my respect regardless of their scene role or identification.

However part of the reason I left our local community and was a bit pleased when it fell apart is that I did see how submissives, especially males, were devalued by a number of people. That really pissed me off especially when it was directed toward my own slave but it did piss me off in general. When I could no longer be a leader in that community for academic and work reasons and things got worse it just showed me that that had truly been a good community for me and my household. Which is very sad because I gave 5 very active years of my life and tried to stay involved after that for about six months before it stopped being worth my time and effort.



SteelofUtah -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 10:30:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
You'd be amazed at how many places I end up going, things I get to do, and people I get to rub shoulders with because of the respect angle.  You certainly don't think it's all due to My award winning personality, do you?  LOL.


When I met Robert Dante it wasn't because I was respected it was because I knew someone who knew Robert.
When I met Jay Wiseman it wasn't because the community whispered in peoples ears about how honorable I was
When I went to Bond-Con it was cause I bought a Ticket and the Parties I went to were because people thought I was a cool person to have at the party.
Now I will be going to Folsom this year and I was invited because it would be fun not because I am a respected member of some community but because I have friends who think I would enjoy it.
When Sin was around in Vegas I got to do Demo's with Master Len and know most of the girls from his movies in person because I went to 20 or so Sunday Workshops at his house because I was interested in what he did and he was interested in sharing.

None of these happened because I maintained or gained an elitist position within a community but because I have always tried to just be myself and make new friends with similar interests to my own.

I don't think you need to be treated with a preceived amount of respect within a community to make friends who are well known I think you just need to be yourself.

I woud LOVE to have you at any thing I did LadyP because I like the Person who you are, not your position in the community not because you are a Dominant Female but because YOU as a person are someone I like knowing.

Steel



softness -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 10:46:56 AM)

I feel lucky in that (generally speaking) the local scene demonstrates respect to people who are regarded as worthy of it *regardless* of their orientation. Once the "new meat" thing got old and people got to know me I was treated with as much respect as anyone else. The people who I mix with at munches/parties/clubs/events etc tend to be more interested in the individual rather than their job title .. if that individual is someone worthy of respect then that is demonstrated.

Sadly though the thing I encounter again and again is the "good girl" *head pat* "nice little subbie" and that will always rile me. Perhaps it will change as I get older, however the fucktards that belive a submissive is somehow a retarded child needing help to survive trapped in an adult woman's body seem to treat submissives of any age in this manner. I do not expect respect from them because they do not understand me and will rarely put aside the time or energy to change that. Due to this I have a very hard time respecting them.




Stephen123456 -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 10:59:06 AM)

The first step is ALWAYS to have SELF-RESPECT, and after that, show that same respect to others. Do those two things, and you will have the respect of those worth knowing, because those people live by that same credo. To quote from the song "Respect yourself", "If you don't respect yourself, ain't nobody gonna give a good two hoots".



LadyPact -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 11:46:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

When I met Robert Dante it wasn't because I was respected it was because I knew someone who knew Robert.
When I met Jay Wiseman it wasn't because the community whispered in peoples ears about how honorable I was
When I went to Bond-Con it was cause I bought a Ticket and the Parties I went to were because people thought I was a cool person to have at the party.
Now I will be going to Folsom this year and I was invited because it would be fun not because I am a respected member of some community but because I have friends who think I would enjoy it.
When Sin was around in Vegas I got to do Demo's with Master Len and know most of the girls from his movies in person because I went to 20 or so Sunday Workshops at his house because I was interested in what he did and he was interested in sharing.

None of these happened because I maintained or gained an elitist position within a community but because I have always tried to just be myself and make new friends with similar interests to my own.

I don't think you need to be treated with a preceived amount of respect within a community to make friends who are well known I think you just need to be yourself.

I woud LOVE to have you at any thing I did LadyP because I like the Person who you are, not your position in the community not because you are a Dominant Female but because YOU as a person are someone I like knowing.

Steel


Hi Steel,

First I want to say that I very much appreciated your comment.  As I've been thinking more and more about the move west, I get more and more excited about the opportunity to meet some of the amazing folks of CM.  You'd shock Me if you didn't think you and your andi are certainly prominent members of that list in My head.  (My regards to her.  I hope she is well.)

I do have to tell you though, I happen to get away with more than I probably should in a lot of areas.  Free passes to events, comped stays, etc that I'm really not entitled to.  (In fact, I've had to insist on paying on a few occasions.)  I honestly don't have a good reason for this whatsoever.  I've been told by a couple of organizers that I'm good for business.  Bringing Me in seems to make people think it will bring others in.  I have no clue if that's true or not.  It seems to and I don't debate the point.

Between you and Me, (and the wonderful folks reading) I don't think I'm all that special.  I think I'm just an average person who does the things I like and how I like to do them.  I'm not pin up beautiful, exceptionally intelligent, or expert in a lot of areas.  I think what I do have in My corner are things like wearing the leather I enjoy and having some at least average skills.  Of course, every Lady Pact action figure comes with a pretty well stocked toy bag and <gasp> she actually knows how to use them.

While we're on the subject, I'd LOVE to attend anything that you'd put on.  I still enjoy the heck out of learning from others, just as much as I enjoy teaching people the things I know.  To Me, it's not a contest or some kind of thing where people don't show each other the fun stuff so they can feel special because they are the only one who knows how to do it.  Just don't be surprised when I'm like a kid at Christmas when I learn a new skill.  (Maybe you can help Me with My knots.  LOL.)  I get just as excited when I get the chance to teach someone something else.

Best Regards As Always,


LP



lusciouslips19 -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 12:03:05 PM)

A forceful strong woman is viewed as a raging bitch the man a leader. And as viewed on a different thread, a female dominant was pounced on and the views of 1 dominant woman and 2 submissives were minimized.  One Person posting even said he just glanced at the submissive victims post but wanted to hear from the "accused" before deciding. SO the female views seemed to carry much less weight.

Our society may have come far in its treatment of woman but I believe it has a long way to go. Woman are still minimized, demeaned or downright loathed on such an unconscious level.  But belive me, its there. Reminds me of the Gwen Stefanisong"I'm just a girl in the world, thats all I'll ever be". Men are predators and women are prey. Prey does not get respect. Prey is loathed by many. WOman is either the madonna or the whore in manys eyes.



LaTigresse -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 12:09:02 PM)

Now see Luscious, I just view the world through totally different eyes than that.

Everywhere I look I see men THINKING they are running the show when in actuality most of them are being manipulated, in some way, by their women.  Very often, I hear them men admit, it is their SO that really runs the show. I also see women as being much more vicious, especially with one another, and often it is the WOMEN that give the men the preferential treatment, not the men. Women are often horrible to one another.

I think for the most part, at least here in the US, the bulk of grown women that are prey are prey because they chose to be. I know I don't feel like prey, I don't feel treated badly by men on the whole. In fact, I prefer to work in a mostly male environment. Although, if I was to second guess every word and nuance of every male I come across, I could find a reason to be offended or feel degraded. But I don't. I expect to be treated on the merit of my work, personal integrity, etc. That is my focus and that is what I get. The rest.......I don't even acknowledge or give attention to. Therefor, it doesn't thrive.



lusciouslips19 -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 12:10:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Now see Luscious, I just view the world through totally different eyes than that.

Everywhere I look I see men THINKING they are running the show when in actuality most of them are being manipulated, in some way, by their women.  Very often, I hear them men admit, it is their SO that really runs the show. I also see women as being much more vicious, especially with one another, and often it is the WOMEN that give the men the preferential treatment, not the men. Women are often horrible to one another.



Yes, many have resorted to indirect power. But that doesnt make what I said or the experience of many women invalid.



LaTigresse -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 12:16:36 PM)

I don't make it invalid, I simply feel that if you are going to focus energy on it, it will flourish and thrive and that will be what you see and experience.

To me, it just comes down to the whole concept of "we teach others how to treat us" or "we get what we ask for/demand/expect"



mistoferin -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 12:26:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

A forceful strong woman is viewed as a raging bitch the man a leader. And as viewed on a different thread, a female dominant was pounced on and the views of 1 dominant woman and 2 submissives were minimized.  One Person posting even said he just glanced at the submissive victims post but wanted to hear from the "accused" before deciding. SO the female views seemed to carry much less weight.

Our society may have come far in its treatment of woman but I believe it has a long way to go. Woman are still minimized, demeaned or downright loathed on such an unconscious level.  But belive me, its there. Reminds me of the Gwen Stefanisong"I'm just a girl in the world, thats all I'll ever be". Men are predators and women are prey. Prey does not get respect. Prey is loathed by many. WOman is either the madonna or the whore in manys eyes.



That is indeed the thread that spurred my thoughts for this one. See the funny thing is is that the community being discussed in that thread is a community that I am also a part of. What surprised me is that the women of that thread are well respected members of the community. I, myself, have always enjoyed respectful treatment in that same community. I've never felt like my views are invalid and whenever I have gone to the leaders of the various groups with an issue I have always felt as though I was taken seriously. I'm not a drama queen and I don't fly off the handle at the slightest thing...so when I have spoken up about something I've always felt that my concerns were taken seriously. I've had leaders of the groups in that area ask for my opinions on different matters over time and I've always felt as though they view my opinions as equally valid as I am also a leader in my own community. I have never felt as though they were viewed as "less" because of my orientation or gender.

I was really rather gobsmacked though when I saw what was happening on that other thread. I saw women who were respected members of their communities, who have become over time, well respected members of THIS community...being torn apart, ridiculed, chided, disbelieved, accused of exaggeration. It made me wonder if all of the respectful treatment I am so used to may only be "fair weather" in nature here.

The other really sad thing that has been a result of that thread is that I believe that the community has gotten somewhat of a black eye that it really doesn't deserve. There are soooooo many extenuating circumstances and facts that can't be fully discussed here that would make the situation far more clear and understandable. There are many amazing people in that community and I'm afraid that that "one bad apple's" rot has potentially tainted them in the eye of the public. I would really hate to see anyone look in poor judgment of the entire community because of one member....or because of decisions that have been made the way they have been because of many factors that can't be discussed here.

It just blew me away to see a woman who has shown herself over many years to be of high integrity to have her intentions ripped so easily apart. A fine woman that I am proud to call friend.



lusciouslips19 -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 12:28:24 PM)

Well sexism does exist and pretending its not there does not make it go away. Many who have gotten ahead  in life and their carrer may think they have overcome it, until they are steamrolled by it. Whether its the treatment of women on the boards or a club when people arent listening to a submissive about a problem she has encountered or a woman in business who hasf ound out that she is getting paid 10,ooo less than a man in the same position.



subtlebutterfly -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 12:40:26 PM)

Actually..this getting paid less than a man ...thing..there was this lecture held by a professor who specializes in the job environment and all that shit.
He made a point out of saying that there is actually NO difference between the negotiation position a female is in and the negotiation position a male is in, when it comes to salary.
The only difference is that women ask for something that they know they COULD get..when the man asks for what they know they can't get. Of course that ends up with people not getting the same salary for the same job.
I actually think it's true, and I don't think sexism does necessarily exist because the males are males and women are women, it's just the different way of thinking.
I'm sure that..if there were two people (lets say they have the same background..same everything) if the woman had the same way of thinking as the man, they could get equally far. Some women get far..that's probably because they focus on the male traits..but not the feminine traits when it comes to business.
I don't think it's the mens' fault that sexism exists. It's just a different way of thinking, it's like comparing apples and oranges. It's a scientific proof that our brains aint the same. Of course the results of our actions do not become the same.
As long as people can negotiate about things..there's always going to be a difference. However men have been out in the market, working, much longer than the woman has...blah I'm just gonna shut up.[8|]



LaTigresse -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 12:47:18 PM)

All I know is that when I quit seeing myself as a victim, I quit becoming one.

However, if it makes people feel better to sit around whining about how bad their lot in life is........they had better not get their panties in a bunch when I refuse to join in, listen for too long or continue to take them seriously. I've got more important things to do than piss and whine "oh poor me, I was born without a dick and all the dicks are being mean to meeeee..."

I kinda like " THANK GOD I was born without a dick!!!" much better.[:D]



NorthernGent -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 12:47:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

Woman are still minimized, demeaned or downright loathed on such an unconscious level.  But belive me, its there.



I have the good fortune to be dating a woman who considers herself to be a feminist - it's a first for me - it's interesting to hear her point of view.

She has a point in one sense: of course women play second fiddle to men when it comes to positions of authority, but there have been prominent women throughout history and to suggest otherwise would devalue the role played by women in important issues such as the beginning of the end of the slave trade (many of the quakers who campaigned for the end of slavery in late 18th century Britain, were women - an act that ultimately led to the British government abolishing slavery before most others and sending ships/soldiers to Africa to enforce the ban).

I think, however, she falls foul of the same stance as yours above. She insists she is at a disadvantage in her workplace because she is a woman, and, as per any self-fulfilling prophecy, it materialises. Ultimately, disadvantaged or not, no one is going to lay it on a plate for you - there's no such thing as something for nothing in this life. To suggest women are loathed is ridiculous considering hetrosexual men spend an inordinate amount of time trying to find a suitable mate.

On the OP, I suppose if power is your goal, then, yes, perhaps women/submissives will be marginalised. On the other hand, if making friends is your goal, then I can't see why women/submissives will be any less respected. Perhpas the trick is to stay away from the power games and their followers.



subtlebutterfly -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 12:58:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

All I know is that when I quit seeing myself as a victim, I quit becoming one.

However, if it makes people feel better to sit around whining about how bad their lot in life is........they had better not get their panties in a bunch when I refuse to join in, listen for too long or continue to take them seriously. I've got more important things to do than piss and whine "oh poor me, I was born without a dick and all the dicks are being mean to meeeee..."

I kinda like " THANK GOD I was born without a dick!!!" much better.[:D]


agreedagreedagreed
*mumbles periods hormones notbeingabletopeestandingwithoutalmostfallingova* yeah.....definitely.. MUCH better[8|]



lusciouslips19 -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 1:01:54 PM)

Too bad only the man is acknowledging it exists.I  appreciate the acnowledgement NorthernGent. I believe to call woman who complain about  sexism whiners is a problem too. As women I suppose its better to be a queen bee than to want to acknowlege the others facing that glass ceiling.



LaTigresse -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 1:09:21 PM)

Luscious, I believe you are completely missing my point, whether intentionally or not.

I never said it doesn't exist. I am saying that focusing on it, whining about it, is not productive. It only feeds it. If that is your desire and goal, yippie for you.

I believe, and have proven to myself, that a different tactic is much more productive. I don't like excuses for failure and don't give myself the, ever so easy, gender excuse.



lusciouslips19 -> RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community. Real or illusion? (4/10/2009 1:16:47 PM)

Perhaps others have not faced what I have. I was not seeking authority. Just to exist in the world without being demeaned. Let me tell you about the time I cried to my boss about the busboys in the restaurants hitting on me and how it was making me feel. What did he do about it? he planted a kiss on me.
Or the restaurant pizza joint wuith the drunken son of the owner. He let a customer choke me as a joke. I went to talk to the other son who dimissed me.  They even let him back to the restaurant.  I needed the money so I stayed. I hadto confront the man who put his hands on me myself.  But after the night that the drunken son slapped me acroos the face, I walked out and pressed charges. I went to the EEOC. The EEOC lost my paperwork and when i went to court the cook who witnessed it was their to stand as a witness against me and the police supervisor was there too as he was a friend and customer of theirs. This was downtown chicago.

So call me a whiner or a victim mentality. Likely you have never been in a position where no matter what you did justice would never prevail.



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