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Submissive as a respected member of your community. Rea... - 4/9/2009 10:44:51 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Having been very active in my local lifestyle communities for many years now, and having conducted myself within those communities with a high degree of integrity that has been proven consistent over the course of many situations that have put it to the test, I had come to believe that I had "earned" a certain level of respect that should not be dependent on orientation. Afterall, while I am submissive to my partner I am most certainly not submissive or in service to all. I'm beginning to wonder now though if it is all just really an illusion.

When the shit hits the proverbial fan...does a submissive voice carry the same weight or credibility as a dominant one? To take it out even farther, does a dominant females voice carry the same weight as a dominant male voice? Watching some recent events play out from a "fly on the wall" perspective suggests to me that I've been kidding myself in my thinking that outside of our own personal relationships where we knowingly and consentually engage in power exchanges, we would have equal standing within our communities.

So is our "standing" in our communities only valid as long as we are being "good little girls" and not making waves or speaking out?  

Now I know there are a whole bunch of folks out there who see the whole idea of a "community" as an illusion. But those aren't the folks I am interested in hearing the opinions of. I don't say that to be disrespectful in the least...but if you can't grasp the concept of being involved in a circle of the same people for many years as a "community", then I doubt that your feedback could be relevant to those of us who do see it that way.

_____________________________

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"
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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 10:54:19 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

does a submissive voice carry the same weight or credibility as a dominant one?

I'll say yes; HOWEVER, I need to also state something else. You said
quote:

  I had come to believe that I had "earned" a certain level of respect that should not be dependent on orientation.

I am nitpicking here BUT...in your eyes you may have earned it; BUT, in the eyes of others, probably not. It's the word 'earned' that you use; it gives off a certain expectation that since you have done and been this and that, you should automatically be given respect. As I said, I am nitpicking really...the wording just struck me as wrong...but, I do agree with you. If your actions have been those that would generate the respect of others, then nine times out of ten, you will be shown that respect.
quote:

  does a dominant females voice carry the same weight as a dominant male voice?

From my own perspective, absolutly. But then, I was 'trained' a bit differently than most. My late husband was Gorean; therefore FC and FW's were given the same respect that a man was.
quote:

So is our "standing" in our communities only valid as long as we are being "good little girls" and not making waves or speaking out?   

Since I make it a habit not to get involved in the 'local groups and such', I really could not answer that. From a general standpoint though, I would think that a submissives voice, especially one that is knowledgeable, holds just as much weight as that of a Dominant.

Just my thoughts though.


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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 11:01:27 AM   
SingleRarity


Posts: 320
Joined: 9/13/2006
Status: offline 		Ahhh, it's coincidental that you posted this today. I don't have an answer per say, but I do have a story.  On another board I frequent I encountered a dominant male who said the following."Depending on the situation, she will be ignored, after all she is just a slave."  He also mentioned that he doesn't expect other Tops to introduce their slaves to him.  

I have no problem that a dynamic like that might exist between a couple (it's their prerogative of course), but when a Dom/Doms extends their belief that all subs/slaves are disposable, it would make it hard for any sub or slave to become respected or a community leader.

Daddy's Ballerina, e

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 11:14:19 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		I don't believe it matters what orientation a person is or sex, to be respected.  You attend event or places and either your cool or your aren't.  A proven track record or not.  I don't see that as 'earning' anything.
 
It's no different to any other setting.  And there are assholes in all who judge people by their looks or sex.  I doubt the orientation makes any difference.  Bdsm isn't going to be different from any other group of people, bigots are bigots.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 11:14:31 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I guess it depends on the ever-debated definition of "submissive". For me...my submission is strictly sexual... it does not extend to any other part of my being.

Some would say I am not submissive in the classical since...I happen to believe there are many flavors and degrees of submission and to restrict a definition to my or your version of submission would not match reality.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/9/2009 11:15:33 AM >

(in reply to SingleRarity)
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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 11:17:54 AM   
MarcEsadrian


Posts: 852
Joined: 8/24/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Does a submissive voice carry the same weight or credibility as a dominant one? To take it out even farther, does a dominant females voice carry the same weight as a dominant male voice?


I'd say that depends upon the listener (or reader) and their inherent biases, of course. To each their own. For the sake of balance, I try to focus on what is being said, not who is saying it. Wisdom, tact, wit and an overall good argument has a way of speaking; it's not seated in an orientation, accolade, clique or celebrity status for me. In short, knowledge, wisdom and integrity stand on their own, and it's a shame we'd dismiss seeing them due to any number of exterior factors that really have nothing to do with possessing those virtues.


(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 11:23:27 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Regardless of orientation......people earn my respect over time, by being the type of person I respect.

None of that has anything at all to do with their dynamic within their personal relationships or their gender. It comes from actions, not words. Although words can sometimes be actions, examples: lying, gossiping, backstabbing, etc.

When it comes to a, he said, she said, type issue.......I usually watch and listen, put the info with the background of the people involved together with the current situation, and feel that the truth is more near the centre. One person's truth is not always another's. Add to that, most people communicate like crap, regardless of gender or personal orientation. Then toss in all of our personal filters and assumptions.....more distortion.

I will listen and empathize if I gave half a damn about the person. Saying something like "I am sorry you are going through such a difficult time" doesn't cost me anything. Otherwise, I've found it's just best to keep my nose out of most of the fray.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 11:26:14 AM   
YoungBlondeSlave


Posts: 953
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline 		i don't know about "earning" any level of respect. But, as long as you behave in respectable ways and always maintain your curiousity and desire to learn through this events that you attend and you then become a source of information and admiration from others then that should be good. What level of respect are you looking for? If you have the love and respect of your Dom/Master then who else would matter? How much do you need to feel validated?

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 11:37:23 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Judged solely on my albeit limited interaction with the local scene and on the two groups I was a member of until I chose to void the "public" scene, I have seen that mostly Dominants of both sexes have equal authority and that those sub./slaves who are out there doing things for their groups and are those types who are likely to gain respect in the mundane society, do so in the BDSM groups too. Of course there is the usual and expected amount of back stabbing and rubbishing of people (usually behind their backs) but that will happen no matter where you are anyway.

I do understand what IrishMist was saying though from my many years in the Gorean Community, and concur that both here in Australia and in the US where I spent considerable time with a number of my Gorean Peers, tghat both FCs and FW were given the same respect that a man was.

On a personal point, I will give respect to those who in my eyes have earned it and equal weight to all people no matter their status or gender/orientation providing they are not continually talking shit. We don't have to agree for me to value their views.


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 11:39:09 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Oh it has nothing to do with validation or a personal quest for a high level of respect. It is about being taken seriously though and not being ridiculed or condescended to. For the record, this post is NOT about me. Watching what is going on on another thread on these boards right now has me wondering....

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to YoungBlondeSlave)
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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 11:43:18 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Another thing I thought of as it pertains to the ongoing subject of "respect".

Most people want it as a matter of personal validation. It feeds something within themself. I'm not sure how it relates to personal insecurities but it seems to go together more often than not. The most insecure are often the ones that demand "respect" the loudest. Which, all too often, has the reverse effect. At least in my eyes.

To me, the key seems to be to focuse of doing what is right. Right for me, right for the people that have trusted me with parts of their lifes, and right for the world around me. If that earns me some small measure of respect....yippie!! If not, I am probably oblivious to it because I am busy minding my business, doing what I need to do, fulfilling the obligations of my life.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 11:47:08 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Oh it has nothing to do with validation or a personal quest for a high level of respect. It is about being taken seriously though and not being ridiculed or condescended to. For the record, this post is NOT about me. Watching what is going on on another thread on these boards right now has me wondering....


If it's a board issue, then you have to take into consideration (yeah here I go again) - no face, no inflection, no hand gestures.
But honestly erin, does it really matter?   All you need to take with you is who did the condecending (in your opinion) and who didn't and you know who's advice/recommendations/behaviour you can trust.  If it's someone you are friends with, then go to them and share your thoughts and feelings.  A real friend or genuine person will take your feelings into consideration and maybe explain their behaviour with you.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 11:47:45 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Oh it has nothing to do with validation or a personal quest for a high level of respect. It is about being taken seriously though and not being ridiculed or condescended to. For the record, this post is NOT about me. Watching what is going on on another thread on these boards right now has me wondering....


Oh Erin, online stuff is just nothing to me. I know I don't know ANYone on here enough to determine whether or not I want to really respect them or not. Too much room for creative exaggeration.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 11:50:11 AM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		I don't consider myself part of a 'lifestyle' or 'local community' but it's always entertaining to me when someone underestimates my formadibility because of my sex, stature, or generally not loud carriage.  Just gives me more impact if the need arises.  :> 
  Davan

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Waiting is

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(in reply to LaTigresse)
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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 11:54:41 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Oh Erin, online stuff is just nothing to me.


Oh I have to agree. Even though the thread I'm talking about has people involved who are part of my real life world. What I think is interesting though is that I believe that some of the things that are being said are at least in part a reflection of how people feel. Sometimes I wonder if it is even a more accurate depiction of what goes on in people's heads....even though in the real life world they would never have the balls to let it come out of their mouths. If it is AT ALL accurate it certainly tells me who wouldn't make it across a table from me for more than 30 seconds.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LaTigresse)
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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 12:01:35 PM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		I find that I recognize People not Lifestyle orientation. I do not care what your genitiles you have or what superiority you place in them. If I value you as a person I listen to what you have to say, If I do not agree with your opinion again no matter what your gender or orientation I voice the fact that I do not agree.

What I offten do find is that there are people who feel that because you do not agree with this it has something to do with there Gender or Orientation. One of my Coworkers is convinced that she has problems with one of my Bosses because she is a Girl, when in reality it is because she is kinda hard to deal with. I am able to handle her and so I let her vent to me about the fact that her ovaries are to blame for the friction between the two and I play the go between. Makes the office happier and everything gets done and no one is setting someone else up for a problem.

The People who complain the loudest about Gender or Orientation are those who find it is more important to be agreed with or seen in a positive light then it is to just stand behind your opinions. I know that my opinion is not always the most popular but it is my opinion none the less and  as such valid if only to me. I will do what I can to explain my opinion, explain why I disagree with someone elses opinion, or accept that we do not agree and try to move on. However it is when someone wants to convince me that *I* am wrong because *They* are right and that is the only basis for their objection. People who assume that you don't agree with them because they have breasts or because they don't beat their chest and wag their penis around to me show that they just cannot accpet that other people have opinions that do not match theirs.

I will openly admit that I find this most common with women who are in power or a precieived place of power. I find that they are this way because.... well .... lots of men do feel that because they have breasts they aren't capable of worthy thought.

Back to the office analogy, we have a client who my co worker can not deal with, because he really does believe that because she is a women she doesn't know what she is talking about, no matter what she tries to tell him he wants to talk to someone else (Male) to confirm it with. His Mentality FEEDS the belief for her that Men assume she is inferior or stupid and make her opinion invalid.

Yeah, Ther most certainly are those who are among the "No Girls Allowed" Mentality I think they are morons and I am willing to listen to anyone, I will agree when I agree and I will disagree when I disagree but it have nothing to do with Gender.

As for the Submissive side I find this one hard to answer. I know many submissives who carry themselves very well and although I know they are submissive to their Master and I recognize that I see them as equal parts of any conversation. However there are also submissives who speak as if they are lower or not worthy of an opinion and I admit that when they say things like "I know I am just a lowly sub but I think ........." I honestly do find it hard to take them with any ammount of authority because they haven't presented any amount of authority to begin with.

I guess it's all in how you carry youself. At least it is for me.

Steel

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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 12:06:19 PM   
YoungBlondeSlave


Posts: 953
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Oh it has nothing to do with validation or a personal quest for a high level of respect. It is about being taken seriously though and not being ridiculed or condescended to. For the record, this post is NOT about me. Watching what is going on on another thread on these boards right now has me wondering....


Everywhere, every day there is ridicule and condescension. It's always going to be a problem, there is no way to eradicate it. However, the people who are worth your time and efforts will take you seriously and realize that you know your stuff. i've run across the same problem and i find it occurs mostly when, what i call "Schmucky Doms" come across subs who know more than they do lifestyle-wise or in general. These morons think that just because they are Doms it automatically adds another 100 IQ points, while being a sub drops 100 points.

i've run intellectual circles around these guys and yeah, they tend to get more hostile but they also lose a lot of respect for "picking on" me. Especially because this lifestyle is supposed to be based on tolerance and understanding (at least, in my opinion) and having someone get on their high horse about one thing or another is just a total waste of time and energy that usually isn't worth even the time it takes to think of a clever retort. i've had Doms snitch on me to other Doms for being rude and disrespectful and it sort of elevates my standing because i'm not the one running to someone else saying "they were mean to me, they hurt my feelings, punish them!!"

Just be you, be true to yourself and you shouldn't have any problems live your life inside and outside of the lifestyle in a way that you can be proud of and you shouldn't have any worries. If anything arises you seem the type that can hold your own and not have anything to worry about. i mean, sure there are a lot of Doms (and subs) who think that subs should just be robots in soft shells with no thoughts or opinions other than "i must obey Master!!" But, they're really not worth your time anyway, are they?

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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 12:14:40 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		this slave has never been an independent member of the local "community"...so she has no first hand experience with it. when this slave was a "newb", wild horses couldn't have dragged her into community events alone.  she sought someone out with experience who had the integrity, strength and smarts to guide her through it before she went to a community club, munch or play party.
 
why?
 
because it had been this slave's lifelong experience (before her discovery that BDSM, D/s and M/s dynamic based relationships and local community gatherings of these allegedly like-minded folks even exist) that if anyone views you as "submissive" that means they also perceive you as somehow less than.  less than intelligent, less than mentally competent, less than important, less than desirable for a Long Term Relationship, etc., so yes...her opinion, her views, etc. were perceived as not as important as the "normal" folks' who weren't inclined to submit to others...if they were ever considered at all.
 
it actually suprised her at first that the same attitudes about that inclination to submit to others existed within the "community of alleged like-minded folks".
 
from an outsiders prospective...those that identify as submissive in our local area are the ones this slave would vote most likely to start up a munch group or "police" an event.  most are independent and dominant over their lives...they only choose to submit in the context of fun and relationships and are definitely NOT meek when it comes to the rest of the world!

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 12:22:28 PM   
YoungBlondeSlave


Posts: 953
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

...from an outsiders prospective...those that identify as submissive in our local area are the ones this slave would vote most likely to start up a munch group or "police" an event.  most are independent and dominant over their lives...they only choose to submit in the context of fun and relationships and are definitely NOT meek when it comes to the rest of the world!


you are absolutely right, i know for a fact that i'm definitely that way (independent and dominant over my life). But, living by myself and working where i work demands that i not be meek. So, i wonder if that also intereferes with my ability to be submissive? i mean, how do you turn it off?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Submissive as a respected member of your community.... - 4/9/2009 12:24:01 PM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		Whenever I see these threads started on what goes on in the local community it just makes me - and I'm sorry, but I just can't help myself - have these mental images of The Collarme Opera which like most operas is two thirds too long.

It's just like the contra temps in opera. It''s a bit like in Carmen with all the soldiers, or the male lead with all the rebels or male doms together, and they're all there assembled on stage, and this male lead is striding across the stage in the opposite direction singing, Men! Men! I want to talk to you.. and they're all stood there like lemons behind him.

And it's like the virgin that he's in love with is like a brown or purple velvet double decker bus, this huge domme woman, and she's of course singing the high notes, Ohhhh! Ohhhhh!, and he's supposed to be the young grenadier or gunner and he's about 59 years old and wearing these beige tan tights with ample cleavage. And he's singing, Men here's what to do...

We'll attack the castle, and then we'll pinch all their stuff and fuck off. And then you get the leading woman, or the diva, and he will walk over to her and sing, I'm going away now. I'm going away, over the hill, until I'm gone, gone, gone away.. Over there, down the valley, up that mountain over there.. And away over there as far as you can see... Over the horizon..

Oh you could see it if that hill wasn't in the way...

And she turns back to him and sings Ohhh! Don't go away. Please don't go away. Please don't go over there.. Oooooh! Don't go away.

Yes I must he sings I must go away.. Away from here.. Away from you.. You're not submissive.. And your mother gets on my nerves.. I'm going over the hill..I'm going over that hill which you can't see...But once I get to the top I will tell you if there's any decent munches there..

O Gustav she sings, Stay here, I'll give you all my money, we'll find you female slaves.. I'll join in any time you like.. My mother knows some submissives too... We can set you up in business..

That is of no interest to me he sings back. I'm not interested at all, I'm not interested because.... I'm going away, I'm going away over that hill, down the valley, I'm going away...

And then the lights dim.. There's a sort of reddish light being shone on the two of them.. And he sings I'm going away, I'm going away, I'm going away over the hill.. Over there, over there, over there, I'm going away..

And then two more male doms appear and start singing He's going away, he's going away, over the hill, he's going away..

We all know, he told us earlier, he's going away, over there, he's going away, going away...He's dumping her, she's fucking crap, he's going away, going away.. He doesn't care, Over there, he's going away..

And then the lights go dim again and the entire company comes in, all the male submissives, female submissives, switches, female dommes, male doms, fetishists and even Moderator 11, and they stand together and sing He's going away, away, far over there..

_____________________________

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(in reply to mistoferin)
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