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CallaFirestormBW -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/13/2009 9:18:32 AM)

quote:

Does your perception of high protocol practices fit the stereotype that I mentioned above? What experiences have you had that led you to that conclusion? Are you interested in protocol type settings or events and just haven't had the chance to attend something like that yet? Have you had fears about doing so? What do you think you as person would make you feel more welcome?


I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

I grew up in a "high protocol" family. It had nothing to do with D/s. My dad held a respected, and elected, position in the community, and there were a -lot- of rules that went along with how one associated with others, because of that. My parents didn't call them "protocols", they called them "manners". Because of that, when I think of being "mannerly", I think of the somewhat formal ways in which people interact with one another in order to smooth the boundaries between them and make everyone comfortable. I think, too, that for some of us who are a bit long-in-the-tooth, or who, like me, had parents who were -much- older when they were born, were from a different culture, or both (my parents were in their 40s, and grew up in Europe), "protocol", or the rules by which one knows how to interact in given situations, was much more commonplace than it is now.

Because of that, I think that some individuals are skittish of the whole idea of complex manners of interaction. It's interesting that this is often the case, when typically, manners were meant to make things -easier- for the people involved. They provided specific forms of behaviors that could be applied in specific situations, and these specific behaviors would assure that nobody would be insulted or hurt or leave situations open to misinterpretation.

One thing that has made this difficult is that the current common expressions of "manners" are based on an enforced "equality" and an embracing of a more 'casual' manner of interacting. People often see the more formal styles of manners as "snooty" or "pretentious", and make it plain that they are "just people", to the point of getting insulted if approached in a more formal way. It's been my personal experience that the dropping of formal "manners" (read: protocols) hasn't really benefited society, and, in many ways, may actually have -hurt- us.

Protocol is something we all learn. We learn how to treat one another, and how to respond in a variety of situations. These are -all- "protocols". Nobody knows a new protocol from the first instant xhe's exposed, but I always understood that the point of protocols were to ease an individual through those awkward first experiences by giving a foundation where they could stand firmly, clear about what came next, while they gathered information and understanding about how the inner workings functioned. These days, we just leave people hanging, hoping they'll figure it out before they insult someone or peeve someone so much that it ruins the entire evening... and then we make fun of them for being "idiots" -- what were they supposed to do? We took away any basis they might have had that would have generalized their behavior and prevented them from doing or saying something inappropriate for the situation by taking away the formalized structure of "protocols" that would have given them an organized, uniform platform from which to branch out.

I use formal protocols a -lot-. I think they're -very- beneficial when dealing with newcomers, or dealing with individuals who might need to go back to a point in their practice -before- they developed bad habits, to give them a foundation from which to build again in a more productive direction. When I require protocols for a servant, their protocol does -not- intrude on visitors or guests un-necessarily. For example, when I have a servant in-house, and I have a guest, the servant will have a series of protocols in place that explain what -I- expect hir to do to make my guest comfortable. The servant would offer to take any outerwear and hang it properly or place it in a predesignated location, would show the guest to seating appropriate to hir physical needs, and offer something to eat/drink. The servant would gracefully defer any questions which xhe was not authorized to answer, would gracefully but firmly defer any untoward familiarity (touching, petting, pinching, patting, attemts to kiss, etc.) and would back away three paces from the guest before turning hir back on the guest to attend to any requests for food/drink or to fetch me. A servant who has been in my home for a long time might adhere to these implicitly, or might improvise if the situation seemed to call for it, but xhe would be familiar enough with how I prefer things to be done that xhe wouldn't make the guest uncomfortable with hir behavior. With a newcomer, the parameters are still raw, so new servants are required to obey implicitly and without deviation, and the protocols are designed to make that possible while still making a visitor feel welcome.

In the same way, servants in our home address new visitors as "ma'am" and "sir". I don't care, when someone comes to call, whether xhe is a servant or a keeper in hir own home -- in my home, xhe is a guest, and is treated with the same dignity of any new visitor. Once I've gotten to know the person, and xhe's a returning guest, the protocols will be altered for hir comfort, but any new visitor will be treated the same way in my home. The uniformity means that any visitor who comes to see me will be treated cordially, regardless of hir perceived 'station', and this assures that, when there -is- a guest who requires 'kid gloves', my servant will not be flummoxed or fumble through the protocols -- xhe will have used them a hundred times before, and will be able to be gracious and grace-ful, and will come away proud of hirself for having navigated treacherous social waters with ease.

I also have personal protocols in place, for how -I- prefer to be treated. These are rarely spoken of in front of guests -- instead, my servant knows that, under X circumstance, I want certain things to be handled in a certain way. My servants don't have to ask me about my medicine in front of guests. They know that, at 6am and 6pm, I take XYZ. They bring it to me discretely, with the appropriate beverage, so that I can take it. When I have company and it is time for a medication that I can't take in front of company, my servants know to give me a polite signal -- a hand-raise, or to come in and speak with me discretely, at which point I will excuse myself graciously and attend to what I need to. The same goes if I have a client/pastoral-care issue/etc., or any other situation that would call me away from my guests. There isn't any fanfare, no shouting through the house for me, etc. The servants know to approach me and exactly what information to give me so that I know quickly and precisely what needs to happen next.

Private protocols are often "invisible" to guests. I don't expect them to know what's going on -- the whole point is for things to be seamless so that they don't -have- to deal with our private issues while they are visiting. I can have a servant in my home, and have my great aunt, Aunt T, visit and know that my servant won't do or say or present hirself in any manner that would make my aunt uncomfortable. I can even have my friend, the dungeon-master dominant "bear" in our home at the same time and not have to worry about something being done or said that would put -either- my friend or my aunt in a position of dis-ease. The protocols for dealing with guests are meant to make it possible for me to have visitors from a broad range of experiences and have them all be comfortable and well taken-care-of in my home, regardless of the situation.

This is where protocols really -are- a blessing rather than a curse. They enable us to take complex situations and provide clear rules so that we can behave appropriately in a wide range of situations. Protocols have taken a real beating, particularly in American culture, but it's been my experience that they're of great benefit in smoothing the rocky places where people come together.





kidwithknife -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/13/2009 12:44:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Does your perception of high protocol practices fit the stereotype that I mentioned above?  What experiences have you had that led you to that conclusion?

Not personally. I held those stereotypes for some time.  But then I started chatting to a couple of leathermen online and they broke a lot of those preconceptions for me.  And we get on fine, despite being at opposite ends of the spectrum as far as protocol is concerned.

quote:

Are you interested in protocol type settings or events and just haven't had the chance to attend something like that yet?

Not really.  If anything, getting to know more about the reality (as opposed to the stereotype) has just reinforced my view they aren't my kind of thing. All power to the elbow of those who do enjoy that though. 

quote:

Have you had fears about doing so?

Not really.

quote:

What do you think you as person would make you feel more welcome? 


Nothing as such.  I think that the only things that would make me comfortable would be those who would change the nature of the event.  And I certainly don't expect other people to change to suit my personal preferences.




kidwithknife -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/13/2009 12:52:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
One thing that has made this difficult is that the current common expressions of "manners" are based on an enforced "equality" and an embracing of a more 'casual' manner of interacting. People often see the more formal styles of manners as "snooty" or "pretentious", and make it plain that they are "just people", to the point of getting insulted if approached in a more formal way. It's been my personal experience that the dropping of formal "manners" (read: protocols) hasn't really benefited society, and, in many ways, may actually have -hurt- us.

Protocol is something we all learn. We learn how to treat one another, and how to respond in a variety of situations. These are -all- "protocols".

I'd agree with a lot of your post and I just wanted to pick these bits out.

It's certainly been my experience that all groups have their own "protocols" to deal with.  And that's no less true in those groups that pride themselves on informality and being non-hierarchal. If anything, it's the opposite.  Negotiating the waters of certain 'alternative' subcultures is positively Byzantine.  And they're made moreso by the fact so many of the expectations aren't even conciously acknowledged, let alone codified.




lobodomslavery -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/13/2009 1:57:36 PM)

High protocol would not be for me. Nopes. i dont have the energy to concentrate on someone else now. i gotta get myself right first. i have too many problems of my own
kevin




LadyPact -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/13/2009 5:19:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

LaT,  I'm not sure I understand your question.  Could you clarify it for Me, please?


Sorry for the delay in the reply. I kept myself busy with projects around the farm this weekend.

I am just curious what sort of activities make a situation high protocol in this venue. As I said, I am familiar with the specifics that make a military function high protocol, or some church services like a catholic high mass versus the laid back services of the church I grew up in.

I was just looking for an example of the type of thing that makes a BDSM function high protocol. I've only ever heard vague suggestions of such, in passing, in threads here. Or if there even is anything that could be considered remotely universal. Is it all too venue/group specific? The sort of thing that someone used to a high protocol event in NYC, would be lost at a high protocol event in Atlanta?



Sorry for the delay, LaT.  It was a busy Monday.

Usually, if a group or venue is planning a high protocol event, it's billed as such.  Some things do vary from place to place, but not so much that anyone would be lost.  There are some basics that I've found to be the same, even in different locations.  Things like senior D types (that's experience-wise, not age wise) speaking first and the not touching a sub that doesn't belong to you are pretty common.

I know the not talking/touching thing was one of the reasons you said you probably wouldn't enjoy the idea earlier in the thread.  I'm going to echo something that Calla mentioned.  It can be the very fact that there isn't any touching that can make a new s-type feel free from worry if that's a concern of theirs.

Thanks for the question.  If it wasn't quite what you were driving at, I'll be happy to try to do better.




DelilahDeb -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/13/2009 6:10:41 PM)

I was a guest at dinner which was fairly high protocol —at least by Eugene's laid-back standards. Dress varied with those attending from clean zippable jeans and non-holey t-shirt all the way to corseted black Victorian. Formal? Yes, it was a seated at table dinner served by our hostess' two subs-in-training—one sissyboy live-in maid, one sub handling additional tasks. Not my scene, but it was no more formal for guests than dinner at a good French linen-tablecloths-restaurant with skilled maître d'hotel and separate server. But not as formal as one with a sommélier.

High protocol is a phrase that, in my limited experience, can mean anything from micromanagement of one's slave, to complete objectification, and just about any variations in between.

Lady Delilah Deb




ImpGrrl -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/20/2009 8:24:43 AM)

FR:

My main problem with "high protocol" gatherings and expectations is the role-based behavioral expectations.  I don't do class systems - and that's basically what role-based behavioral expectations are.  There's the d-class and the s-class (no, we're not talking about cars here, LOL) - and each has their own set of rules.

I don't mind rules, in my relationship.  I certainly don't mind others having rules in their relationship(s).  But I don't want the two of them mingling.  I follow my rules, they follow theirs - and we get along just fine.




IronBear -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/20/2009 10:03:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl

FR:

My main problem with "high protocol" gatherings and expectations is the role-based behavioral expectations.  I don't do class systems - and that's basically what role-based behavioral expectations are.  There's the d-class and the s-class (no, we're not talking about cars here, LOL) - and each has their own set of rules.

I don't mind rules, in my relationship.  I certainly don't mind others having rules in their relationship(s).  But I don't want the two of them mingling.  I follow my rules, they follow theirs - and we get along just fine.


I guess that's where we differ. I grew up in and still believe in the class system. I disagree with your comment that class system is role play. I can understand it seeming such if you have never been born and lived in a class system society as I have but I can state that for those of us who follow the old and I believe better ways before this modern rubbish of being over casual to the point on impoliteness, our ways, manners and protocols are not role-play to be switched on or off, but it is how we live our lives.




ShaktiSama -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/20/2009 1:43:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact


Does your perception of high protocol practices fit the stereotype that I mentioned above?  What experiences have you had that led you to that conclusion?  Are you interested in protocol type settings or events and just haven't had the chance to attend something like that yet?  Have you had fears about doing so?  What do you think you as person would make you feel more welcome? 



My avoidance of high protocol situations is actually not confined to BDSM--I often avoid attending banquets and formal events associated with work, family and religion as well. I have never been inclined to blame others for this tendency. I think that some people take pleasure in dressing formally and attending events which involve the rituals of formality; others do not.

I'm one of the "not" variety, for the most part. I find both the clothes and the social formalities highly uncomfortable and restrictive. I do not feel that I'm expressing anything authentic about myself during these rituals, and I have a natural distaste for being told what to do, how to speak, what to wear etc.. Imposed authority = not my pleasure.





LadyPact -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/20/2009 1:55:31 PM)

You know, Shatki, it's really funny that you say that.  I was just writing in My journal recently about how odd it would seem to most people that I felt so comfortable wearing My leathers the other night.  No, it's not physical comfort.  It's something I can't explain that a lot of people wouldn't get.

The fault here is My own, for not being able to convey the thought.




ElizabethAnne -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/20/2009 2:03:54 PM)

Hello CallaFireStorm,

I have held many Gorean gatherings in our home, and at least ONE meal is what I consider "high protocol", and the rest are not quite as formal, but still I expect the slaves to serve AS I expect.  In fact, one of the aspects that I enjoy about Gorean life, is the standards that MANY (not all) Goreans demand from each other and from their slaves. 

While my parents are not from Europe, they indeed had rules growing up, they were called manners.  I find many people lack common sense ideas, such as not interrupting when someone else is speaking, walking between people talking.  While I take all that for granted, I am always surprised others do not. 


I personally do not enjoy a "free for all", I am far more comfortable with protocol, and I find myself growing more so as I get older.   The very LEAST I expect is manners, being polite, please and thank you never go out of style.  I enjoyed reading your post, and am very glad to find out there are "others" out there like me!

I wish you well,

Elizabeth




Rykune -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/20/2009 2:21:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
I grew up in a "high protocol" family. It had nothing to do with D/s. My dad held a respected, and elected, position in the community, and there were a -lot- of rules that went along with how one associated with others, because of that. My parents didn't call them "protocols", they called them "manners". Because of that, when I think of being "mannerly", I think of the somewhat formal ways in which people interact with one another in order to smooth the boundaries between them and make everyone comfortable. I think, too, that for some of us who are a bit long-in-the-tooth, or who, like me, had parents who were -much- older when they were born, were from a different culture, or both (my parents were in their 40s, and grew up in Europe), "protocol", or the rules by which one knows how to interact in given situations, was much more commonplace than it is now.


I nodded a great deal while reading this. Both of your parents were in their 40's whereas one parent of mine was in their 30's while the other was in their 50's.

In "his" day (for emphasis), things were said and done in a certain way.  Manners and even being ladylike, either would fit the reasons why. Even now, I can't shake some of those habits even in places or with company where they aren't understood. For that reason, I think that a "high protocol" event might suit me more than something laidback. If I knew how to go about it and had some general ground rules laid down beforehand, I think I'd be at ease with it. Depending on venue, of course. Wine tastings are not my sort of thing!




DesFIP -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/20/2009 2:55:41 PM)

Funny, I grew up in a high protocol family and as a result have the opposite opinion.
Entertaining heads of (minor) states, ambassadors, etc was the norm. Probably because I found that attention to my needs as a youth was not given and was indeed stifled in favor of impressing the visiting guests, I now have a strong dislike of such things.

I can do it, my kids can do it, but none of us would choose to. As I said, having a cousin married to an ambassador, I much prefer seeing her at a barbecue or pool party over attending an event at the embassy.

In terms of BDSM high protocol, my understanding is that s types don't speak unless spoken to by a d type. Would not that mean that single s types are unlikely to come to such a gathering since they don't have a d to introduce them? And therefore wouldn't there be a preponderence of single male dominants to single female submissives? How does it not turn into something unpleasant for single female subs if open to everyone in the community? If invitation only, of course, that's different.




ElizabethAnne -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/20/2009 3:01:28 PM)

Hello DesFIP,

Ours are invite only, and single slaves, or slaves that are attending without their owners are prepped ahead of time what to expect.  Also they are considered "house slaves" for lack of a better term.  Single Gorean Free also are aware of our home and our "rules", again for lack of a better term.

I wish you well,

Elizabeth




Andalusite -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/20/2009 6:15:03 PM)

LadyPact, I've been to two leather events, but they weren't high protocol, and nobody refused to talk to me until I figured out who their partner was. If I go solo, since I'm a switch, I don't know what the suitable protocols would involve (even aside from the fact that it depends on the individual gathering, and perhaps to some extent on the geographical area). I'm completely neutral toward most people in terms of D/s, and in my limited experience (mostly hearing about realtime gatherings online, and a few very awkward incidents in person) with high protocol, many dominants seem to feel they can order submissives and switches (especially women) around with impunity. I would not be willing to cooperate with that situation, since even though they are dominant, they have no authority over me as an individual. Even if I had a date for the evening, I don't have an established D/s relationship yet, so I would be unsure how to apply it to my interaction with him and other people there.

IronBear, I'm fine with high protocol vanilla events, and am reasonably familiar with the manners that would be expected of me. I don't have a definite BDSM role unless I have a partner who I have a D/s relationship with. When I'm dating someone new, I can react to them on a D/s basis, either as a dominant or as a submissive, depending on my chemistry/etc. with the individual person.

ElizabethAnne, do you ever invite non-Goreans to your parties (if you know them, and know that they are into D/s and/or BDSM), or do you prefer to only invite people who are already involved in that lifestyle?




goodpet -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/20/2009 6:29:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DelilahDeb
I was a guest at dinner which was fairly high protocol —at least by Eugene's laid-back standards. ...  Not my scene, but it was no more formal for guests than dinner at a good French linen-tablecloths-restaurant with skilled maître d'hotel and separate server. But not as formal as one with a sommélier.

High protocol is a phrase that, in my limited experience, can mean anything from micromanagement of one's slave, to complete objectification, and just about any variations in between.
Lady Delilah Deb


I have found this to be true also. We use the term but it varies widely as to just what it really means. I feel that is why it is so important to not only identify an event or dinner as "High Protocol" but to also clearly delineate what can be expected and is expected.  If it is not your cup of tea, like ImpGrrl's, then don't attend.  High Protocol is more about attitude and extending a level of respect and service beyond what you would normally expect for the situation or location.

We put on a Masters Dinner every 2 months or so, it is High Protocol and we let guest know we what we expect in general. We use the term "Formal Dinner" rather then "High Protocol" since it describes more the style. For us it is Masters or Dom at the table only.  Servers are in black and white with house aprons. The actual type of table service varies on if I am alone, if we are training new submissives or have experienced servers, and also on the menu. It is no more then what you would expect from a nice restaurant, and it is less, of course, then you would get from a 5 star establishment. But it is for just 4 to 6 Masters, in a private home, with good food and all with a formal twist on it.  I mean come on, reality is that I can't serve and put on a 5 star effect here at the house, but I can serve with a 5 star attitude and effort.

It is how we live, with a higher level of expected behavior and attitude. It is who we are, not a game or part time role. Some times it is more formal then others but the polite, respect, and expected protocols are there all the time.

~ann




IronBear -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/20/2009 6:35:56 PM)

ann, don't you also find that with the adaptation of both medium high and high protocols it encourages those involved to be more courteous and have better manners in daily life? I have. 




DesFIP -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/20/2009 6:51:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne

Hello DesFIP,

Ours are invite only, and single slaves, or slaves that are attending without their owners are prepped ahead of time what to expect.  Also they are considered "house slaves" for lack of a better term.  Single Gorean Free also are aware of our home and our "rules", again for lack of a better term.

I wish you well,

Elizabeth


Thanks, that is the only way I could see it working. As otherwise the unattached doms would feel free to harass unattached sub females.

However if it's invitation only, doesn't that wind up being a version of 'preaching to the choir'? You only invite those who you know will enjoy it, and others don't get a chance to experience it. Since if it's a public party, no single sub can be considered a house sub and therefore will not have any protection.




LadyPact -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/20/2009 7:30:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

LadyPact, I've been to two leather events, but they weren't high protocol, and nobody refused to talk to me until I figured out who their partner was. If I go solo, since I'm a switch, I don't know what the suitable protocols would involve (even aside from the fact that it depends on the individual gathering, and perhaps to some extent on the geographical area). I'm completely neutral toward most people in terms of D/s, and in my limited experience (mostly hearing about realtime gatherings online, and a few very awkward incidents in person) with high protocol, many dominants seem to feel they can order submissives and switches (especially women) around with impunity. I would not be willing to cooperate with that situation, since even though they are dominant, they have no authority over me as an individual. Even if I had a date for the evening, I don't have an established D/s relationship yet, so I would be unsure how to apply it to my interaction with him and other people there.



In My experience, any event that I've attended that's been labeled high protocol has asked that any switch when replying by RSVP pick which role they are going to be in during the event.  For example, if it's a dinner, you wouldn't sit at the table with the D types and serve at that same dinner with the s types.  As a switch, you could do either, but that would be your role for the duration of the event.

The portion that I highlighted above is not a situation that I have had in personal experience.  You have to remember that there are protocols for D types as well.  That not touching/interacting thing goes both ways.  If you would go to an event in sub role, the D types there aren't going to harass you out of consideration for the Dom you might have. 






Andalusite -> RE: High Protocol Practices (4/20/2009 11:31:58 PM)

Hmm, the closest thing to that locally that I've seen is http://www.twistedteas.org/
Men serve the women, regardless of BDSM orientation, at most of them, though female servers are occasionally allowed. I've seen their site before, but thought that it was only held farther away, so I think it might be worthwhile to check into. Thanks for the inspiration! As to the more formal dinners like you describe, I'll try to keep an open mind, and might explore it, but it sounds like it would be a bit odd without a partner or date there.




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