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RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/14/2009 12:04:57 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Philo- minor nitpicking point- well maybe not so minor. There's an assumption here that people that go on this rampage are mentally ill. I'm not sure of that- in just the same way that I don't think Hitler was mentally ill. There's a difference between mental illness and character flaws. The assumption that we're making is that these folks suffer from depression. Treat the depression and the urge for mucking goes away. What if that's not right?

...actually i'm not postulating depression. To be perfectly honest i'm hypothesising a new condition....organic sociopathy. Sociopathy not as an intrinsic mental health problem but as a response to external events.
i think we need to be careful when we suggest that people like Hitler were not mentally ill but rather had character defects. It's a thin line. The problem with the character defect idea is that it allows us to write some people off. The advantage of treating such people as if they were mentally ill is that we don't give up.
Giving up on people by agencies like schools may be part of the problem we are discussing.

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RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/14/2009 12:16:15 PM

cpK69

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I'm kind of at a lose. I know what my problem was; my perseption and personality, combined with environment, but without comparison...

Perhaps an understanding in similarities, between the causes of the specific cases we have at hand, could be useful?

Kim

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RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/14/2009 12:22:57 PM

cpK69

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Oh yeah, I meant to ask. Is it unreasonable to think that the equipment being used today could have some effect; not necessarily the one that pushes someone over the top, but perhaps causing a constant “close to boiling” sensation?

Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 4/14/2009 12:23:16 PM >

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RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/14/2009 12:48:24 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Well, it seems that we have three people here discussing depression and all of us have some first hand experience.

To the point on Kurt Cobain-he had the resources to dramatically change his life should he have chosen to do so. Most of us do not. Yet he chose to end his life instead- I suspect as an act of rage against Courtney. (I'm absolutely guessing here- never met the gent or her.)

In terms of people going mucker- can involve women (I don't like Mondays) and I'm pretty sure that some of the people who've gone postal are not young. And yes, the accident rates in the workplace bear out the phrase (I think I'm repeating myself here.)

Mike- knowing a bit about talk therapy and how unspecific most of the drugs are, I have a few problems with your statements.

1) Clinical depression can be treated by both drugs and talk therapy. Talk therapy has been shown to alter brain chemistry long term. I wouldn't be surprised if the results are far longer lasting than drug therapy which often requires constant maintenance- suggesting that drug therapy is a palliative- treating symptoms rather than the underlying disease. However, it's a disease and can be diagnosed like any other without recourse to herculean efforts. Our mental health system used to be far more robust than it is now- thank you Ronnie Rayguns. (Seems to be a common refrain out of me- I really despised that man.) so it will require some rebuilding- but what else is new?
2) Situations which cause depressions in some individuals do not cause depression in others. Thus, I'm not sure the population that needs to be treated for depression is as large as you think.
3) As noted earlier, it's quite possible that our society is unhealthy, and that these muckings are just another symptom.

General comment- I find what trips me up in these types of discussions is not what I know, it's not what I don't know, it's what I don't know I don't know- hence I try to be careful with assumptions.

Sam

A couple of things Sam....Cobain 's life was altered by his stardom and success....his clinical depression (if that's what he suffered from,I'm just speculating) would have kept him from enjoying those fruits.Cobain's drug use and life style would have been a major inpediment to any attempt to intervene in his downward spiral.
As a complete aside,I actually had the pleasure of meeting the widow Cobain...at one of those places which are supposed to remain anonyomous...but since she has talked about it ,I consider myself released from that burden.One of the many rumors swirling around Cobain's death is her involvement...I find those hard to beleive.Someone there had told her one of my issues was my fathers suicide,she sought me out and we spent many hours discussing the aftermath of such an event....If as rumored she had anything at all to do with that man's death she is a far better actress than I would have previously given her credit for.
Sam on your points...
1) If I was sloppy (and I was) in my previous post concerning the use of anti-depressants...I apologise .No doctor worth his diploma would prescribe and for get.Of course these drugs are to be taken in tandem with talk therapy...sorry for that error
2) agreed,some can better handle the ups and downs of life.Indentifying those that are at risk though would seem to be enough all by itself to overwhelm the mental health services....life is a bitch
3) a diseased society...a novel idea...not very hopeful though...and if in fact that were true....than we are led inexoribly back to my favorite subject...a need to put a lid on certain tools...not to mention sharp knives.
Sam if I started worrying about what I don't know or even what I don't know enough to know I don't know....I would never post....But that brings me to a favorite saying (which obviously I have never heeded) of an elderly family friend...."It is better to keep one's mouth shut and risk the world thinking your a fool,than to open your mouth and confirm it"

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RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/14/2009 4:40:07 PM

StrangerThan

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090406/ap_on_re_us/mass_shootings_why

Seems as much guessing from the experts as the article doesn't say much than is already known. Typically male, typically white... that describes a lot of groups, including politicians.

Some other thoughts, these are planned executions, even maybe obssessed executions but not compulsive. In most cases, the urge to do so has probably been sitting around for a long time and probably in most cases well hidden. Note the article does say most have no history of brushes with the law nor of mental illness.

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RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/14/2009 5:28:32 PM

samboct

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Philo

Sorry- the difference in between mentally ill and character defect is important. A woman once wrote to Freud and asked him to "cure" her son of homosexuality. Freud's response was that since he didn't consider homosexuality an illness, it couldn't be cured. If you're going to use mental health resources, one had better make sure that there's an actual illness. As an aside- I'm not sure Hitler was all that different then the individual rulers of various fiefdoms in the Middle Ages who were bent on consolidating power and often didn't mind a body count to go with it- Hitler just had technology on his side.

Mike- I bow to your first hand experience with the widow Cobain and will happily accept your version of events. As noted previously, I was guessing.

In terms of your ideas on the combined use of anti-depressants and talk therapy- I wish! No, our treatment of mental illnesses has been making giant leaps backward thanks to the influence of big pharma and some academics who had very little experience with the illnesses they were trying to cure. I had an organic prof who was convinced that the right compounds would cure any mental illness, and that psychiatrists were a dying profession. His viewpoint has largely won out, and it's been a disaster. Most anti depressant meds are prescribed by either psychiatrists who don't follow their patients or GPs.
2) First step in solving a problem is admitting one exists. If our society is sick, then blindly hoping it isn't is unlikely to improve things anytime soon.
3) Pretty sure your elderly friend was quoting Mark Twain. From my perspective, the 'net is a wonderful resource to at least have a fighting prayer of thinking what you know- you actually know. I must admit, there have been times when I've shot from the hip when posting, only to do the google search a bit later, and need to apologize. But hey- it's a learning experience...aren't they all?

Stranger-

That article doesn't do a lot for me. I'm underwhelmed with the FBI's profiler division and forensic science- well, isn't much of a science. I do know that there are people who've studied the subject and once got my butt reamed by a pretty girl who corrected on the use of the term "sociopath" which she says is not particularly useful- it's just pop culture. What does strike me though, is that the author of the article also mixed together serial killer and mucker.

Sam

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RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/14/2009 6:30:09 PM

slvemike4u

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Sam,wow I guess that just seemed so obvious to me I felt comfortable assuming it was so.It certainly was in my case.If just to talk about the side effects.
2)how does one go about "curing" a society?....Hell we can't even "cover' a society.
3)That sneaky old bastard,BTW....how are you so sure the old family friend I was referring to wasn't Mark Twain.

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RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/15/2009 3:24:54 AM

cpK69

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From the artical:

quote:

"It's the constellation or coming together, the perfect storm of someone's last shot at something. For them, there's just no other way out. Or if there's another way out, they don't choose it, because they're going to punish somebody."

I’m not sure I agree with this statement, at least not in the terms it is stated, and not as an all the time situation.
1. I suspect that sometimes, the thought is about protecting someone/thing.
2. I believe the reason they don’t choose another way, is because they are convinced, what they see is the only way.

quote:

"I'm sure that he was on a suicidal rampage, but first he decided he was going to get even," Levin said of Wong, who killed 13 before ending his own life. "And just like every other mass killing I've studied, his motive — his primary motive — was revenge."

Here’s an example of what I meant by lying. If his ability to speak proper English was the initiator, it seems more accurate to say, his primary motive was self hate, topped by too many competitors standing in his way.
Perhaps he had concluded there was no way he could be successful, and thought he would help clear the path for a few who are, more worthy then him. Otherwise, why not try to get them all?

quote:

"I think that people that are on the edge, that are contemplating such tragic events, sometimes all it takes is that being highlighted in the media for them to go, 'You know? I could do something like that, I'm THAT angry,'" said Safarik. "It's in their face on the television, and now it's in their thinking pattern.

"It becomes an option that, perhaps earlier on, wasn't an option for them."

To believe that a person suddenly sees it on some type of monitor and says “oh, hey, I think that’s for me”, is a total crock of shit. My only question would be, who’s he trying to kid? The only aspect being addressed is timing.

quote:

Many other people "have all these symptoms, but they never get the disease," Levin said. "They may blame other people for their problems. They may be isolated so they have no support systems in place. And, yet, they don't hurt anybody."

Some of the realizations that led to my reaching the point of “make or break”:

I am not a capitalist, and will never make it as one. I suck at being a traditionalist. The things that interest me most, are things that seem least important, to the mass majority (majority rules). I am an outlier to outliers. Others started looking ‘dead’ to me.
Up until I got into D/s, a few years ago, I never knew what it felt like, to not be at ‘just below boiling’ emotionally. I had seen a little glimpse of hope, so when I came to the above conclusions, I began to feel as though any sense of content, would be based on settling; going through the motions. The whole situation did come off as a very, cruel joke.

The more I think about it, the more it seems reasonable to consider the possibility, the people who act on these behaviors, reach a point beyond depression. Having someone say to me, in reference to their involvement, in the war with Vietnam, “Hey, we knew it was wrong, but we did it anyway”, blew my mind. Pills that make me feel ‘nothing’ would not have helped; I was already feeling numb, but close to hysterics. People telling me, “it is all going to be all right”, didn’t help. And from my past experiences with psychologists, seeing one, wouldn’t have helped either.

The only thing that ‘saved’ me is that I asked to be shown the truth. (I shit you not.) I am doubtful that many think to ask that, or that they hit bottom, or that they have the same perspective, that is internally instilled in me, so that they would even think to look for it in the same place as I did.

Not saying they would need to, but for me; I am doubtful anything less would have sufficed.

Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 4/15/2009 3:27:05 AM >

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