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RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 11:13:46 PM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline 		One more aspect that prevents me from agreeing with more restriction by law; I am more afraid of loss of liberty, then I am of dying.

Kim

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one voice

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 11:21:17 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Is the need to register a weapon a loss of liberty worth dying over.
Is the need to have a background check(presupposing you can pass one)a  loss of liberty worth dying for.
Even the most ardent gun rights defenders would not take that position.Though they resist these things they rally there resistance around the slipper slope theory.Once the gov't knows about my weapons they can take my weapons....and I need my weapons to resist the gov't...is the usual refrain.
Even that is silly,if the U.S. gov't were ,with the support of the U.S. armed froces want to take private weapons...who is going to stop them.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to cpK69)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 11:26:03 PM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline 		My stance is simply, without liberty, there can be no justice.

(rephrase) Aren't the things you are calling for in your last post, already in place; I said further.

Kim

Additional thought, if something were to happen, where it was nescary for troops to take action on home ground, I believe their collection of firearms would be in an effort to protect them; I’m not really going to be a thought to them. I would like to continue to be able to protect myself, and no, it does not have to mean against Gov. 


< Message edited by cpK69 -- 4/12/2009 11:33:16 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/13/2009 12:49:16 AM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Now excuse me,but if you are going to discuss mass murders,and choose to omit or restric guns from the conversation....then you are most assuredly guilty of intellectual dishonesty.And Philo there is absolutly no irony in that statement.


...and if you are going to restrict the conversation to only the subject of guns, as you have, you are also most assuredly guilty of intellectual dishonesty. Do you get it now?
This subject is about more than bloody gun control. This thread was started as a way to try and have a conversation about the subject that didn't begin and end with guns. Because the subject is way more than that. It's about why people pick the damn things up, or choose other means of mass murder. Bombs, poison, even cars. You have done more than anyone else to mire the thread and narrow the focus to the subject of guns. You have consciously and vociferously resisted anyones efforts to talk about anything but guns. You have restricted the conversation and you first bandied the phrase 'intellectual dishonesty' about.
Do you understand why i am so disappointed in you?

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/13/2009 1:43:37 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		 can't tackle the reasons people resort to spree killing but I still think the form these killings take is important.

If bombs are primarily associated with political motivations, where the desire is to kill a crowd rather than personal acquaintances, the only other parallel to gun sprees in my memory are a few attacks using samurai swords. As with the fetishizing of gun violence, such swords have a vivid and iconic screen history. Stand up, Quentin Tarantino and any number of Japanese chambara directors.

You'll be quick to point out that in all these films, the protagonist is up against similarly-armed opponents. But perhaps that's where the disconnect is; perhaps the shooter feels as though the ideas and viewpoints of his victims, particularly towards him, are the weapons they hold. Maybe this justifies it in his mind?


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Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/13/2009 4:46:27 AM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: painpup

I'm sorry  when i get excited there's always a lack of punctuations and capializations and yes I also lived in NY city  But all i did was offer up a good book to read so read it or not for it does explain alot
It explains a lot only if one accepts the authors point of view.There are alternative points of view.....you do realise that don't you?


Yes Mike, there are alternative points of view....you do realise that don't you?
Mike, you seem like you're in a very fowl mood, have you been into the cooking Sherry?
Fowl Mood? Popeye...no not me I'm peach kean.Just get ticked off when people try to conduct a conversation while telling you to ignore the most relevant aspect of the fucking conversation.
By the way ...the word is foul.No charge for the spelling lesson.


You know mike, we have enough gun control debates running around. What is driving the killings over the past few years isn't the guns. It is rage. You can hide it under depression, suicidal tendencies, whatever wrapper makes you feel better, but the bottom line to it is rage.

Someone wrote on this thread that mass killings have been consistent throughout history. Maybe so. I don't remember them though. Maybe I'm just more sensitized to news now than I used to be. Maybe it's a case of having recognized a problem, I pay more attention.

I've used a gun once in life in defense of home. I was 13. I consider myself lucky to have been taught about them and raised around them. Otherwise you'd be flapping and flailing about this topic with someone else, because I'd most likely be dead. It wasn't an assault rifle, handgun or hunting rifle that served the purpose. It wasn't even a very powerful shotgun. It was a .410. So you can be condescending all you want to be about defense of home. For some of us, it is a real debate, not a bullshit one thrown up out of intangibles.

I do not support any legislation that leads to a loss of liberty. Period. That goes for attempts to limit and ban abortions even though I don't agree with many of them. It goes for the right of the racists to air his or her views, just as it goes for the right of the oppressed to air his or her views. I don't denounce either. Freedom and liberty mean exactly that to me. And don't give me some shit about what freedom and liberty are worth. If my decisions leads to the end of my life, so be it. I fly many weeks of the year. I was on one of the first flights after 9/11 where the entire plane load of people consisted of myself and 3 others. Everytime I walk through those gates at an airport, I have the distinct feeling that terrorists won a major concession from the American public, not because they were successful, but beceause we, as a whole, are cowards. It irritates the fuck out of me.

When it comes to guns, I have no problem with controlling them from the standpoint of criminals, or those with mental issues. I have absolutly no problem with targeting the offenders with stricter punishments. I have no problem executing offenders. That's all I'm going to say on that topic because this thread is not about that topic.

It is about the rage that is driving the killings, and one aspect of that rage is the kind of behavior you are evidencing. You refuse to discuss anything about it without your pet peeve thrown in. I don't know you personally, and you seem intelligent enough, but the action is that of an infantile screaming fit because someone can't have whatever it is they want. This country has devolved into a nation of screaming fits, from Republican talk radio to all the fractious groups demanding their moment in the sun at the expense of other people. It has devolved into a country that glorifies frailty on one hand, while raising a nation of self-centered and indulgent people.

I could go on and on, but unlike many, I have a job and need to work. You can return to railing against your favorite subject, ignoring all the reasons one would decide to end a shitload of lives, and wishing for blanket legislation that will mostly affect people who do none of the above.

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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/13/2009 5:30:59 AM   
MadAxeman


Posts: 4171
Joined: 8/28/2008
From: UK
Status: offline 		Too many disaffected people have access to high end weapons that are inappropriate for home defence alone.
They seem to want to be the anti hero in their own movies.

There may now be too many guns to make regulation fully effective. But surely it can be one of the measures used to address the problem of copycat spree killing. Having fewer automatic  weapons available would slow the trickle down effect of them reaching the angst ridden and crazy.

Kittinsol doesn't wear pants.

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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/13/2009 5:39:02 AM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline 		mike's arguement isn't about automatic weapons. Those are already fully licensed and take a while to get. Anyone getting them legally already goes through a stringent vetting process. Many rifles can be configured to fire fully automatic, but are not sold that way. Mikes debate is about guns period. He doesn't give one damn why anyone would use them, just that they did.

I keep hearing words like outside, disaffected. So tell me, what's creating the outsider/disaffected syndrome. Again, I don't think it's that complicated, but maybe that's just me. Maybe when I look at the different pressures exerted on people today and think ya know, eventually people are going to crack, I should be surprised.

I'm not. Sad maybe, shocked at what's done maybe, but surprised? No.  

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--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/13/2009 5:41:00 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman
Kittinsol doesn't wear pants.


Knicker elastics make for handy catapults. I'm in the mood for a massacre now.

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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/13/2009 5:55:23 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		I haven't read most of the thread but here is my thoughts:

People also have to be aware of the times, we have internet, utube, phones with cameras that you carry around with you. Mass killings are up to me because the ideas are readily available and the understanding of what this really is == is overshadowed by the "fame." Kids are killing kids because they get a hold of these weapons, but its news because the AMOUNT of people killed. How often do you nationally hear about crimes that take place in schools against one kid or a few over a course of a couple months? People want to bann things and try and control everything because that is what they feel is the solution, but all the banning does is take away things from the RESPONSIBLE people. I am not sure if people recognize this but when you make something illegal the RESPONSIBLE people are the ones who abide by the law, its the ones that have always been IRRESPONSIBLE who end up getting past the ban so to speak.

Banning doesn't solve the issue. I hate guns, i have seen up close and personal what they are capable of. I won't touch one, and i have worked and lived and socialized with people who wear guns as most people wear watches or carry their keys.

What it will take is people BECOMING responsible. You can't attempt to shelter people simply because you feel that will keep the bad stuff away -- it won't, all it will do is allow people to remain ignorant because they don't have to deal with the issue. Its like a parent who keeps their child at home because they are afraid of what the outside world may teach their child, not recogizing that child will have to be a part of that world at some point. If you bann everything that could hurt people or be misused, you are simply placing people in ignorance because irresponsible people will still get a hold of the illegally banned item. Look at drugs. The illegally banned ones. Yeah, banning them have really stopped the drug problem in the US.

You can't parent the world by taking away things - adults aren't children and the government isn't a parent, all you can do is responsibly educate and hope those who are responsible will outnumber those who are not.

angel

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RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/13/2009 6:20:49 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


...and if you are going to restrict the conversation to only the subject of guns, as you have, you are also most assuredly guilty of intellectual dishonesty. Do you get it now?
This subject is about more than bloody gun control. This thread was started as a way to try and have a conversation about the subject that didn't begin and end with guns. Because the subject is way more than that. It's about why people pick the damn things up, or choose other means of mass murder. Bombs, poison, even cars. You have done more than anyone else to mire the thread and narrow the focus to the subject of guns. You have consciously and vociferously resisted anyones efforts to talk about anything but guns. You have restricted the conversation and you first bandied the phrase 'intellectual dishonesty' about.
Do you understand why i am so disappointed in you?


If I might interject here, I have to wonder who is really being intellectually dishonest.

We have a thread here about gun violence claiming that guns have nothing to do with the violence.

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/13/2009 6:23:42 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		"Knicker elastics make for handy catapults. I'm in the mood for a massacre now."

Aha!  Success!!!  We've done it, we've done it.... Kittin taking off her knickers!!  I count at least two at this point thinking that posting on this thread is no longer a waste of time (Mike and me.)  Any others willing to fess up?  I suspect it may be a pretty long list.....

Sam 

P.S.  Mike- in reference to your earlier apology- none needed-I don't think you crossed over any lines.  I've been in debates where what I thought was the key point was off the table, so I understand your frustration.  I don't agree with you in this case- but I think we've both cool with that.

< Message edited by samboct -- 4/13/2009 6:26:56 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/13/2009 6:36:00 AM   
MadAxeman


Posts: 4171
Joined: 8/28/2008
From: UK
Status: offline 		Are you the Cunibomber?

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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/13/2009 6:55:23 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		A clitorist.

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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/13/2009 7:14:29 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

mike's arguement isn't about automatic weapons. Those are already fully licensed and take a while to get. Anyone getting them legally already goes through a stringent vetting process. Many rifles can be configured to fire fully automatic, but are not sold that way. Mikes debate is about guns period. He doesn't give one damn why anyone would use them, just that they did.

I keep hearing words like outside, disaffected. So tell me, what's creating the outsider/disaffected syndrome. Again, I don't think it's that complicated, but maybe that's just me. Maybe when I look at the different pressures exerted on people today and think ya know, eventually people are going to crack, I should be surprised.

I'm not. Sad maybe, shocked at what's done maybe, but surprised? No.  
Infantile ?
Dissapointed in me ,from another poster?
Refusal to discuss anything other than guns?
"He doesn't give one damm why anyone would use them,just that they did".
If you people aren't careful I may become disaffected and/or feel like an outsider....and I don't live that far from Virginia.If you catch my drift....
My viewpoints seem to have been hijacked by others while I slept.Why anyone here feels confident enough to parphrase and explain my point of view is beyond me.
Allow me to "correct" the distortions that have occured while I slept.
To Philo who is so dissapointed in me....I entered this conversation pointing out that to discuss spree killings of recent weeks while excluding guns was intellectually dishonest.Nothing you nor anyone else has said concerning deeper issues has moved me from that position.Sure we can banter about all the deeper issues you want.....but eventually ,if you are going to discuss shootings you better be prepared to discuss the readily available access to these weapons.....You and others acted like I had farted in church for bringing guns into the conversation...newsflash Guns are the conversation,and as long as guns are the weapons of choice for those that would commit these atrocities they will continue to be so......that,in my mind deals with your condescending dissapointment.
StrangerThan beleives he is now qualified to speak to my beleifs......do me a favor Stranger ,get the facts straight concerning your own position before explaining mine to others.The automatic weapons ban was allowed to expire under George Bush...it has not been reinstated.These weapons can be sold with no documentation at any gun show in 30 states.I am not advocating seizure of guns....I do not hate guns,fired them as a kid myself.but to have a conversation about the outsider/disaffected and what drives him to murderous rage and ignore the fact that....oh yeah there is an automatic weapon in dad's/grandpa's closet is rediculous
There will allways be the dissafected...the outsider,the put upon.It is the nature of life that some will allways feel outside the circle.Why, here in America do we have such levels of violence coming from these people...oh wait don't go there don't mention the guns......see how silly that is.
Binghamton ,a dissafected immigrant who had done such a poor job of assimilating to American culture he still spoke broken english after 9 years,had learned enough to obtain a pistol liscence.His recent immigration would seem to argue against the "it's in the American character" argument...but his ease of obtaining his permit would seem to bolster the armed society argument.
Cho ,with a history of mental instability....able to legally obtain his weapons.32 dead
Yes Stranger,we have laws woefully inadequit laws...laws that the NRA and the rest of the gun lobby insist have the teeth removed before passage
On the issue of laws I would submit the evidence of their uselessness has been splashed across the front pages and tv screens for the last 4 months in record numbers.
Now go on and castigate everything I said,drive me to feeling more of an outsider....more put upon by others.....but please remember I am an American endowed with an inalienable right to arm myself and shoot untold numbers of my fellow citizens if I get picked upon too much.
To MODXI...that was said with tongue fully in  cheek and no animosity at all....seriously just having fun here....Mike

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/13/2009 8:02:23 AM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

If you people aren't careful I may become disaffected and/or feel like an outsider....and I don't live that far from Virginia.If you catch my drift....


Once you start feeling disaffected, or outsiderish, then maybe you'll have viable input on the topic at hand. The discussion is not about the killing sprees. It is about what drives them or initiates them. The only intellectual dishonesty involved is insisting that weapons must be discussed as an initiating factor. That's like saying every time you discuss middle eastern issues you must discuss the fact that two planes flew into buildings in New York, otherwise you are intellectually dishonest.

And I stick by the infantile comment. There are plenty of places here to accomodate the discussion you want to have.

This is  not one of them. If you need me to repeat that, I will.

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/13/2009 8:20:11 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

If you people aren't careful I may become disaffected and/or feel like an outsider....and I don't live that far from Virginia.If you catch my drift....


Once you start feeling disaffected, or outsiderish, then maybe you'll have viable input on the topic at hand. The discussion is not about the killing sprees. It is about what drives them or initiates them. The only intellectual dishonesty involved is insisting that weapons must be discussed as an initiating factor. That's like saying every time you discuss middle eastern issues you must discuss the fact that two planes flew into buildings in New York, otherwise you are intellectually dishonest.

And I stick by the infantile comment. There are plenty of places here to accomodate the discussion you want to have.

This is  not one of them. If you need me to repeat that, I will.
Yes you seem quite adapt at repeating yourself,but your analogy stinks....trying to have this conversation while omitting guns...is more akin to discussing the middle east while avoiding the issue of  a Palestinian Homeland.
Just to clarify one more time since comprehension seems to lag behind your repetitive skills.
I never said guns were an initiating factor.My assertion all along has been that they are too available, too readily accessible to those that have allready been ,shall we say"locked and loaded' towards violence.The gun comes last...in the tragedy that follows.
But I forgot ,you don't want to have that conversation......you know it occurs to me the  conversation you want to have could probably be readily found on some NRA chatroom...hell it is probably a 24/7 thing...you could jump in at any time.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/13/2009 8:43:02 AM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline 		I'm repetitive because some aspects of society require it, especially the infantile aspects. There is a similarity between ums and dogs that is appropriate here -  that being they are insistently persistent upon whatever single track holds their attention at the moment.

We can debate your issue in another thread if you wish. If you have nothing to discuss regarding the topic, how about leaving it. No disrespect intended, but you have managed to hijack it quite well and therefore void most of the discussion on it. That's infantile. Elsewhere you are not, but here you are.  

By the way, if you're close to VA, but north of it, I'm teaching a class up there in a few weeks. Want to have a sit down discussion, lemme know.

< Message edited by StrangerThan -- 4/13/2009 8:45:30 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/13/2009 9:13:46 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

I'm repetitive because some aspects of society require it, especially the infantile aspects. There is a similarity between ums and dogs that is appropriate here -  that being they are insistently persistent upon whatever single track holds their attention at the moment.

We can debate your issue in another thread if you wish. If you have nothing to discuss regarding the topic, how about leaving it. No disrespect intended, but you have managed to hijack it quite well and therefore void most of the discussion on it. That's infantile. Elsewhere you are not, but here you are.  

By the way, if you're close to VA, but north of it, I'm teaching a class up there in a few weeks. Want to have a sit down discussion, lemme know.


Actually, you hijacked his thread for this trite bit of nonsense, trying to pretend that guns aren't a factor in gun deaths.

(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/13/2009 9:18:01 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

I'm repetitive because some aspects of society require it, especially the infantile aspects. There is a similarity between ums and dogs that is appropriate here -  that being they are insistently persistent upon whatever single track holds their attention at the moment.

We can debate your issue in another thread if you wish. If you have nothing to discuss regarding the topic, how about leaving it. No disrespect intended, but you have managed to hijack it quite well and therefore void most of the discussion on it. That's infantile. Elsewhere you are not, but here you are.  

By the way, if you're close to VA, but north of it, I'm teaching a class up there in a few weeks. Want to have a sit down discussion, lemme know.
Infantile,ums and dogs....no thanks I'll pass on the class.
Perhaps I would leave the conversation if posters would stop engaging me with their repetitive and infantile attempts to make a point where none is?
Since it seems that won't happen any time soon I will once again state my position...I have reread your OP three times now during the course of this discussion(in an attempt to make sure my position was solid) in it you state and I quote"just about every thread on violence and GUNS devolves into a debate on regulation.registration,limits something along those lines.
So there you have your line ,first paragraph, from your op...you wish to discuss violence and guns....but don't want to talk about guns......Now that is quite frankly rediculous...an excersise in selective thinking ,and in a phrase I keep coming back to intellectual dishonesty.
A conversation that could have been fashioned quite readily in the offices of the NRA....lets talk about Lung Cancer but don't mention cigarettes...surely there are underlying reasons some smokers get cancer while others don't.
Now if this is the conversation you wish to have,under these restriction's ...have at it...but you don't get to do that,while responding and refuting my sentiments...and expect me to leave you alone to do it.


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 140
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