RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill Sailors.

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 10:29:39 AM

LadyPact

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quote:

ORIGINAL: scarlethiney

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: scarlethiney
The problem is we are not making sure Americans have their basic needs met either. We are doing a crappy job right here at home. It is not a sin to say you would like to see the people in our country taken care of first. It also doesn't mean its a sin to care about helping others elsewhere.

Just a clarification....... the family members and friends I have in the military do not have the same view you do with regard to the "save the world" concept. Those friends and family in the military are honored to be of service and help to all people and they certainly don't begrudge anyone the right to have basic human needs i.e. food, medicine and money no matter where they live.

Your first sentence is absolutely correct. I'd agree with the second one as well. In fact, that is My issue with the whole thing. If we *were* taking care of our people at home, I'd probably have a better outlook at what we could possibly do for the rest of the world.

You kind of went downhill in the second paragraph though. The fact is, a lot of military dependents have trouble accessing their own benefits due to issues with pay or with Tri-Care. I've seen the people who's spouse is deployed get turned down for even food stamps because the money should have been deposited but there was some screw up or another. The AER (Army Emergency Relief) Office has people in it every day. These are the same people who aren't quite as concerned about getting the basic necessities covered for others because they are trying to cover their own.

For the record, the oath taken by our service men and women is to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. No where does it mention humanitarian services elsewhere.

I never quoted the Constitution of the United States with regard to the oath our service men and woman have taken. What I stated was that the service men and women "I" know don't agree with your sentiments and neither do I with regard to helping others in other countries.
Thank you, but I don't need statistics about facts on how our service men and women are treated by our own government. I am painfully aware of those plights as are my friends and family who also happen to be military personnel.
For the record ......everyone who is military or not does not have your negative view of assisting of others. But your correct it's not stated in the oath they took, it is something personal they believe in.

scarlet

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 1:38:22 PM

popeye1250

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For the record, not all of them believe the way you do, either. Just another reason why private contribution is the way to go, rather than foreign aid. That way, you could send your money to the places you think it should be spent and I could do the same.

Personally, I'd be buying groceries to take to the local food bank, but that's just Me.

Lady Pact, but that would make too much sense!
They want to "improve" a giant, entrenched govt. beuaucracy! How I wonder? More money? Hire another 100,000 papershufflers? Make them take a "pledge?"
I give money to homeless shelters, three of them.
If Mike wanted to give his money to Somalians fine! That's the way it's supposed to be done! It's *his* money.
We should all be able to give to the causes we want to and not have our govt confiscating our money to do things we don't want them to be doing.

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 2:00:16 PM

N4SDChastity

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Just wanted to know if you have been to a war college?.. If so...I'd love to hear your ideas of how something can be done...not how it can't...not the military way.

PS... I do hope you never get a chance to go to war.

Butch

Never been to War college, my friend. The do not let lowly enlisted attend such a lofty institution. But, that does not mean I am unfamiliar with the concepts, conventional and unconventional, taught there. 500,000 square miles (actually, its probably closer to 1,000,000) cannot possibly be covered effectively by and known force, or collection of forces. Oh, you may luck upon one or two support ships, as teh French has done, but to apply a suppressive force in such high numbers as to prevent piracy on the high seas... Think it through. Wishful thinking does not bring wishes to reality. Better to deploy ONTO the potential targets. Make them significantly less inviting. This type of deployment is not only much more practical, it is also more sustainable, and more deadly. Ambushes ALWAYS are.

And, I am a warrior, my friend. In mein and makeup. That I have not, yet, does not bother me. If I never, I will be more than OK with that. But, I have always fought for what I thought was right. Currently, my battles are to defend network infrastructures for the Fed. But I battle because it is who and what I am.

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 3:49:49 PM

calamitysandra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I don't care about "Aids in Africa" I care about "Aids in America."

How about starting to care about Aids (or starving/other problems) in the World?
Or would that, as you are so fond of saying, make to much sense?

I agree that there is a huge need to reform foreign aid, but to simply cut it, fuck 'em all?
This thinking of us vs. them lies at the root of many an evil in the world.

< Message edited by calamitysandra -- 4/16/2009 3:51:10 PM >

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 5:41:31 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I don't care about "Aids in Africa" I care about "Aids in America."

How about starting to care about Aids (or starving/other problems) in the World?
Or would that, as you are so fond of saying, make to much sense?

I agree that there is a huge need to reform foreign aid, but to simply cut it, fuck 'em all?
This thinking of us vs. them lies at the root of many an evil in the world.

Calamity, because I don't live in the "world" I live in the U.S.?

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 5:53:30 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: N4SDChastity

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Just wanted to know if you have been to a war college?.. If so...I'd love to hear your ideas of how something can be done...not how it can't...not the military way.

PS... I do hope you never get a chance to go to war.

Butch

Never been to War college, my friend. The do not let lowly enlisted attend such a lofty institution. But, that does not mean I am unfamiliar with the concepts, conventional and unconventional, taught there. 500,000 square miles (actually, its probably closer to 1,000,000) cannot possibly be covered effectively by and known force, or collection of forces. Oh, you may luck upon one or two support ships, as teh French has done, but to apply a suppressive force in such high numbers as to prevent piracy on the high seas... Think it through. Wishful thinking does not bring wishes to reality. Better to deploy ONTO the potential targets. Make them significantly less inviting. This type of deployment is not only much more practical, it is also more sustainable, and more deadly. Ambushes ALWAYS are.

And, I am a warrior, my friend. In mein and makeup. That I have not, yet, does not bother me. If I never, I will be more than OK with that. But, I have always fought for what I thought was right. Currently, my battles are to defend network infrastructures for the Fed. But I battle because it is who and what I am.

I don't intend to find them...but to make reaction time to an attack to be a few hours instead of days. That is the idea of spreading light attack carriers in a pattern. If a watchful crew makes an sos call at the first site I think a good portion of the time a response could counter a lot of attacks. One attack helicopter could play havoc with pirate crews. Rather than watch a million miles of ocean just watch and keep tabs on the location of passing ships.

After awhile and a few shot up pirate boats and crews I think the attacks will be greatly reduced if not stopped… Especially if a few Special Forces follow them home and say hello.

I don’t know you or if you are a warrior and it is not important anyway… I just wanted to know if you had some knowledge that allowed you to properly evaluate my suggestion… I see that you don’t. If you had I would have like to hear your educated ideas.

I do understand what you are saying about the vast area… but I think it is manageable with the proper commitment.

Butch

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 8:39:22 PM

N4SDChastity

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I don't intend to find them...but to make reaction time to an attack to be a few hours instead of days. That is the idea of spreading light attack carriers in a pattern. If a watchful crew makes an sos call at the first site I think a good portion of the time a response could counter a lot of attacks. One attack helicopter could play havoc with pirate crews. Rather than watch a million miles of ocean just watch and keep tabs on the location of passing ships.

After awhile and a few shot up pirate boats and crews I think the attacks will be greatly reduced if not stopped… Especially if a few Special Forces follow them home and say hello.

I don’t know you or if you are a warrior and it is not important anyway… I just wanted to know if you had some knowledge that allowed you to properly evaluate my suggestion… I see that you don’t. If you had I would have like to hear your educated ideas.

I do understand what you are saying about the vast area… but I think it is manageable with the proper commitment.

Butch

You don't need 2 years of war college to know that, while your concept does hold water (again, pun intended) I do not think it is the most practical. Yes, cutting down reaction time would allow you time on target sooner, you are expending a vast amount of resources, again, trying to cover an even more vast area. CBG's (Carrier Battle Groups - the dozen-ish ships that are tasked with hanging around with the actual Carriers) are not easy or cheap to feed and fuel for ANY amount of time afloat. The CAP (Combat Air Patrol - constant fighter-jets in the air, 24/7, patrolling the perimeter, plus about 125miles in every direction) and AWACS (google it) can pretty much keep track of several hundred square miles of ocean and EVERYTHING flying or floating in that circle. But, then what? Arbitrarily board and/or sink every non-aligned vessel we encounter? Impractical, mostly for political reasons (war is, after all, politics by other means... See, I've read some of the same books they use IN war college, for free, at my public library.). But, again, it takes a lot of fuel and manpower, and food, and sleepless watches to KEEP CAP and AWACS up and on station continously. And, while they are stuck doing THAT, WHO is going to watch whatever prolem area they were originally watching? 2-3 carriers, you say? They do NOT travel alone. You're talking maybe 50+ ships, pulled from somewhere else, to steam to one point in the ocean, just to hunt pirates. It would take weeks to get them ALL there. Weeks more to coordinate their efforts. And, if *I* were a Somali Pirate, I would simply pull in my crews and go littoral (means hanging close to shore), until the big, bad Americans run out of money and the voters get fed up with paying for a head-hunt that will gain them (the voters) NOTHING! You want me to continue extrapolating WHY your idea is a bad one? I could get granular in my analysis, if it would make my point better, but I doubt you are prepared to listen to that degree. And, I didn't even get into the manpower required, shipside, to launch and retrieve the amount of aircraft you suggest. Choppers, if I remember correctly. Lets diverge into that, briefly. It takes a stupendous amount of fuel to keep a helo airborne. Their functional range ain't that great. Plus, top speed, even for the attack choppers is limited by the laws of physics to about 240 mph, or so. Top speed burns fuel about 3-5X faster than cruise velocities. Figure maybe 3 hours flight-time, less if they have to be vectored to point y from point z in a hurry. Maintenance, weapons loading and unloading, refueling...

Yes, your ideal could work. Feel better? Vindicated?

[Mod Note: personal attacks removed]

< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 4/16/2009 9:04:11 PM >

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 9:04:34 PM

ModeratorEleven

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Settle down, folks.

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 9:09:11 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Task Force 151

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 9:36:48 PM

kdsub

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Damn …settle down…you are still coming up with why not …how about how to

Do a search on the Wasp Class carrier...I'm not talking a Nimitz Class

I never said it would be cheap or easy… That is why it would take a multinational coordinated force. 30 percent is better than 0 percent don’t you think? One in three intercepts over a period of time will do some damage. In the mean time there are other options. The Wasps would allow direct action on pirate bases.

I think…of course not knowing what the kollidge books say…it will eventually take some direct onshore action. The Wasp carriers would be the tools. If we do nothing they will eventually take an American flagged vessel with an American crew. If you have no assets in the area we will be helpless. With 1,500 Marines or special forces onboard a Wasp we have plenty of options... Or do we kiss their asses goodbye because it is expensive?

I am not the one claiming to know remember you are the “professed I read a few books so I know guy”. So how about how you would do it… or do you just do nothing.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/16/2009 9:42:47 PM >

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 9:40:04 PM

N4SDChastity

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Damn …settle down…you are still coming up with why not …how about how to

Do a search on the Wasp Class carrier...I'm not talking a Nimitz Class

I never said it would be cheap or easy… That is why it would take a multinational coordinated force. 30 percent is better than 0 percent don’t you think? One in three intercepts over a period of time will do some damage. In the mean time there are other options. The Wasps would allow direct action on pirate bases.

I think…of course not knowing what the kollidge books say…it will eventually take some direct onshore action. The Wasp carriers would be the tools. If we do nothing they will eventually take an American flagged vessel with an American crew. If you have no assets in the area we will be helpless.

I am not the one claiming to know remember you are the “professed I read a few books so I know guy”. So how about how you would do it… or do you just do nothing.

Butch

I already stated how to, if you paid attention.

Small teams deployed to American-flagged vessels.

Hit them when they try to hit us.

Simple.

Effective.

Cheap (cost of ferrying teams ship-to-ship, and could be done by the choppers you favor)

(tame enough for you two?)

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 9:50:01 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: N4SDChastity

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Damn …settle down…you are still coming up with why not …how about how to

Do a search on the Wasp Class carrier...I'm not talking a Nimitz Class

I never said it would be cheap or easy… That is why it would take a multinational coordinated force. 30 percent is better than 0 percent don’t you think? One in three intercepts over a period of time will do some damage. In the mean time there are other options. The Wasps would allow direct action on pirate bases.

I think…of course not knowing what the kollidge books say…it will eventually take some direct onshore action. The Wasp carriers would be the tools. If we do nothing they will eventually take an American flagged vessel with an American crew. If you have no assets in the area we will be helpless.

I am not the one claiming to know remember you are the “professed I read a few books so I know guy”. So how about how you would do it… or do you just do nothing.

Butch

I already stated how to, if you paid attention.

Small teams deployed to American-flagged vessels.

Hit them when they try to hit us.

Simple.

Effective.

Cheap (cost of ferrying teams ship-to-ship, and could be done by the choppers you favor)

(tame enough for you two?)

Don't you think that would just start a sort of arms race... with the millions they have extorted they can easily buy more powerful advance weapons. On board secuity teams would help...for awhile. Do you really believe that will be the final answer?

Butch

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 9:51:17 PM

kdsub

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I think maybe both options will need to be pursued... yours and mine.

Butch

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 9:53:53 PM

N4SDChastity

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And, here is my "softer" side...

Any money saved by NOT committing billions to chase down a few annoying fleas half a world away can be re-purposed towards feeding some of the hundreds of thousands of Americans who now wonder where their next meal is coming from.

In my tenure in the Military I, too, spent time playing Globo-Cop. I didn't like it, but I did it because I signed on the dotted line. It doesn't take a genius to figure this sssssshhhhhhhhtuff out (*I* did it, so that proves my point, and yours, too, I'm guessing). We can protect ours, and do some good (the general eradication of bad people with hard heads), at the same time WITHOUT simply throwing millions of manhours and billions in REAL dollars at every problem. Some deserve that level of funding and committment. This ain't one of them. The Navy has already shown that.

(I hope this doesn't go too far but) I see you as a future congressman.

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 9:58:38 PM

N4SDChastity

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Don't you think that would just start a sort of arms race... with the millions they have extorted they can easily buy more powerful advance weapons. On board secuity teams would help...for awhile. Do you really believe that will be the final answer?

Butch

You have no idea what your countries military is capable of, do you? No idea the stellar leaps ahead we already are, technology wise.

4 and out, right? You did your 4 and got out, didn't you? I'm guessing you were a, what, YN3? (Yeoman 3rd class, in case *anybody* thinks I am "insulting" Butch)

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 10:03:04 PM

kdsub

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Don't feel slighted again...but the political reality of US sailors being killed and imprisoned will not allow your naive view of what our tax money should be used for.
It would be political suicide and it will not happen.

You have to know this is true or your not thinking it through.

By the way I absolutely agree that we should not be the world policemen. But we need to protect our own.

Butch

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 10:08:06 PM

N4SDChastity

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Don't get it twisted. I stand firmly in the realm of reality.

Neither of our proposals stands a chance. Yours because it costs too much (yes, even with the smaller assault carriers), and mines because it costs too little. No defense contract companies would make much of the milliions that keeps the fat cats on the hill.

And, the hungry will continue to be so.

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 10:11:19 PM

Owner59

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Though we should try to help the situation as much as we can on the ground in Somalia,it`s perfectly legitimate to use force against armed bandits.

We should do both.

I`d like to point out that the fat cats in those ships were delivering food aid to the hungry.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/16/2009 10:13:01 PM >

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 10:17:07 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: N4SDChastity

Don't get it twisted. I stand firmly in the realm of reality.

Neither of our proposals stands a chance. Yours because it costs too much (yes, even with the smaller assault carriers), and mines because it costs too little. No defense contract companies would make much of the milliions that keeps the fat cats on the hill.

And, the hungry will continue to be so.

Lets wait a few months then revisit the thread... I bet there will be a marked increase in military assets in the region... and a military action on their lairs...but don't cut yourself short I think they will also add security to the ships themselves. It may be private teams but they would be incompetent not to do so.

Butch

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RE: Somali Pirates vow to go after American ships, kill... - 4/16/2009 10:37:13 PM

N4SDChastity

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I`d like to point out that the fat cats in those ships were delivering food aid to the hungry.

Thanks for joining...

NOT the fat cats I mentioned, I must say. But, thanks nonetheless. My current constraints confine my content, contrary to my considered contempt for your lack of attention.

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