RE: Why the GOP is unraveling.

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DarkSteven -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/7/2009 7:21:37 PM)
Here's what I consider an unbiased article.

Owner59 -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/7/2009 8:23:10 PM)
I heard a friend say today that Spector could/should have been the catalyst to reform in the GOP. He was right.But instead of taking on the extremists leaders,he quit. Kinda lame b/c when the GOP has it`s reformation,it`ll be moderates like Spector taking over the leadership. Great article, Dark.

CruelNUnsual -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/8/2009 7:58:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 I heard a friend say today that Spector could/should have been the catalyst to reform in the GOP. He was right.But instead of taking on the extremists leaders,he quit. Kinda lame b/c when the GOP has it`s reformation,it`ll be moderates like Spector taking over the leadership. Great article, Dark. totally wrong, as usual. When the GOP finds solid leadership it will be a return to conservative principals, not moving even further to the left, that returns them to power.

DomKen -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/8/2009 9:13:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 I heard a friend say today that Spector could/should have been the catalyst to reform in the GOP. He was right.But instead of taking on the extremists leaders,he quit. Kinda lame b/c when the GOP has it`s reformation,it`ll be moderates like Spector taking over the leadership. Great article, Dark. totally wrong, as usual. When the GOP finds solid leadership it will be a return to conservative principals, not moving even further to the left, that returns them to power. Returning to traditional conservative principals would be moving toward the center. The present far right that has controlled the GOP for at least 25 years is not the traditional center right conservatives. Personally I'd like to see the return of a center right right political movement in this nation but the GOP needs to be consigned to the dustbin of history. Two attempted coups by impeachment is two too many.

CruelNUnsual -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/8/2009 9:42:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 I heard a friend say today that Spector could/should have been the catalyst to reform in the GOP. He was right.But instead of taking on the extremists leaders,he quit. Kinda lame b/c when the GOP has it`s reformation,it`ll be moderates like Spector taking over the leadership. Great article, Dark. totally wrong, as usual. When the GOP finds solid leadership it will be a return to conservative principals, not moving even further to the left, that returns them to power. Returning to traditional conservative principals would be moving toward the center. The present far right that has controlled the GOP for at least 25 years is not the traditional center right conservatives. Personally I'd like to see the return of a center right right political movement in this nation but the GOP needs to be consigned to the dustbin of history. Two attempted coups by impeachment is two too many. You obviously have no clue what a "conservative" is if you think Bush was to the right of traditional conservative principals. This and the post on "conservative thinking" are prima facie evidence that liberals have no clue what conservative principals are, or are trying to move everybody to the left for the inevitable change in power. The Democrat party was being proclaimed as "irrelevant" as recently as 6 years ago. The left fringe (well represented on this board) are making the same mistake.

philosophy -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/8/2009 9:45:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual You obviously have no clue what a "conservative" is if you think Bush was to the right of traditional conservative principals. This and the post on "conservative thinking" are prima facie evidence that liberals have no clue what conservative principals are, or are trying to move everybody to the left for the inevitable change in power. The Democrat party was being proclaimed as "irrelevant" as recently as 6 years ago. The left fringe (well represented on this board) are making the same mistake. ...ok, so that we can get some idea of what you mean by 'left' and 'right', what do you define as a centrist position?

CruelNUnsual -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/8/2009 10:21:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual You obviously have no clue what a "conservative" is if you think Bush was to the right of traditional conservative principals. This and the post on "conservative thinking" are prima facie evidence that liberals have no clue what conservative principals are, or are trying to move everybody to the left for the inevitable change in power. The Democrat party was being proclaimed as "irrelevant" as recently as 6 years ago. The left fringe (well represented on this board) are making the same mistake. ...ok, so that we can get some idea of what you mean by 'left' and 'right', what do you define as a centrist position? Far Left;Centrist;Far Right (scale of -5 to 0 to +5): US role in the world: America is at fault;America first but engage allies when possible;Nuke now ask questions later National Health Care: Single payer run by the Government; Current combination of private care with government aid; You only deserve what you can pay for Federal Government's role: We know whats best for you; Invididual rights tempered by necessary and limited laws/regulation; Keep your hands off my ________ (fill in the blank) Taxation: share the wealth; progressive but limited; keep your hands out of my pocket Welfare: A car and HD TV and unlimited numbers of children are rights; safety net; fuck em if they cant find a job after 3 months Abortion: Unlimited including late term; limited by time and/or health of the mother; always illegal parental notification Death Penalty: Never; sometimes; frequent and limited time for appeals The Constitution/Supreme Court: A living document subject to re-interpretation by the SCOTUS; stare decisis,* limited SCOTUS ability to re-interpret; strict constructionists Torture: fraternity hazing practices are torture; list of acceptable practices subject to Presidential override; the ends justify the means Obviously my opinions, not any standard definitions. I am about a +1 if the issues are equally weighted, +2.5 on the most important issues. Any other hot button issues? Edit: I put Pelosi/Reid at -5, Obama -4, McCain -1, Bush 0

philosophy -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/8/2009 10:38:20 AM)
My sincere thanks for that. i can tell it was a fair bit of work, but it does allow me now to more accurately understand what you mean by 'left' and 'right'.

DomKen -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/8/2009 11:18:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Returning to traditional conservative principals would be moving toward the center. The present far right that has controlled the GOP for at least 25 years is not the traditional center right conservatives. Personally I'd like to see the return of a center right right political movement in this nation but the GOP needs to be consigned to the dustbin of history. Two attempted coups by impeachment is two too many. You obviously have no clue what a "conservative" is if you think Bush was to the right of traditional conservative principals. This and the post on "conservative thinking" are prima facie evidence that liberals have no clue what conservative principals are, or are trying to move everybody to the left for the inevitable change in power. The Democrat party was being proclaimed as "irrelevant" as recently as 6 years ago. The left fringe (well represented on this board) are making the same mistake. You honestly think GWB is a traditional conservative? Just compare his policies with those of his father, the only traditional conservative president since RMN. Bush I ran the CIA under Ford, when the US really was under mortal threat, but didn't authorize torture either as DCI or as POTUS. Bush I made good faith efforts to balance the budget, including raising taxes when it was clear lower taxes hadn't increased revenue as the supply siders claimed it would. Bush I was a true internationalist and believed in building a coalition to achieve an international goal.

kittinSol -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/8/2009 11:43:15 AM)
John Stewart: "They're eating ethnic food, dressed in casual clothes. They're like us!"

CruelNUnsual -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/8/2009 1:21:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Returning to traditional conservative principals would be moving toward the center. The present far right that has controlled the GOP for at least 25 years is not the traditional center right conservatives. Personally I'd like to see the return of a center right right political movement in this nation but the GOP needs to be consigned to the dustbin of history. Two attempted coups by impeachment is two too many. You obviously have no clue what a "conservative" is if you think Bush was to the right of traditional conservative principals. This and the post on "conservative thinking" are prima facie evidence that liberals have no clue what conservative principals are, or are trying to move everybody to the left for the inevitable change in power. The Democrat party was being proclaimed as "irrelevant" as recently as 6 years ago. The left fringe (well represented on this board) are making the same mistake. You honestly think GWB is a traditional conservative? Just compare his policies with those of his father, the only traditional conservative president since RMN. Bush I ran the CIA under Ford, when the US really was under mortal threat, but didn't authorize torture either as DCI or as POTUS. Bush I made good faith efforts to balance the budget, including raising taxes when it was clear lower taxes hadn't increased revenue as the supply siders claimed it would. Bush I was a true internationalist and believed in building a coalition to achieve an international goal. You must have misread what I said. Removing the double negatives I said he is left of traditional conservatives. and in my later post put him left of center, ie well left of traditional conservatives. Bush I was to the right of Bush II but left of TCs, as was Nixon. The closest to a conservative position would have been Goldwater, and Reagan close behind.

DomKen -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/8/2009 9:30:36 PM)
Reagan a traditional conservative? You're kidding right? Reagan's antics so distressed Barry Goldwater that Goldwater actually opposed many of his measures. I do love how the right wingers are trying to dump GWB anywhere but on the extreme right where he so obviously belongs. He appointed "struct constructionists" to federal benches at all levels. While he didn't nuke anybody he did act unilaterally almost without exception. Basically you can go point by point down your list, most of which are the John Birch society or so positions not Goldwater's, and GWB is on or close to the red text on every one. Goldwater would have been outraged over GWB unilaterally withdrawing from the ABM treaty, he did sue Carter over that same issue. Traditional conservatives were fiscal conservatives, concerned with a balanced federal budget and pro business tax rates, and believed that international cooperations, as characterized by the UN and NATO, was the proper way to conduct foreign affairs. They stayed out of social issues. Social conservatism is the offspring of the Dominionists and their so called religious right.

CruelNUnsual -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/8/2009 9:54:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Reagan a traditional conservative? You're kidding right? Reagan's antics so distressed Barry Goldwater that Goldwater actually opposed many of his measures. I do love how the right wingers are trying to dump GWB anywhere but on the extreme right where he so obviously belongs. He appointed "struct constructionists" to federal benches at all levels. While he didn't nuke anybody he did act unilaterally almost without exception. Basically you can go point by point down your list, most of which are the John Birch society or so positions not Goldwater's, and GWB is on or close to the red text on every one. Goldwater would have been outraged over GWB unilaterally withdrawing from the ABM treaty, he did sue Carter over that same issue. Traditional conservatives were fiscal conservatives, concerned with a balanced federal budget and pro business tax rates, and believed that international cooperations, as characterized by the UN and NATO, was the proper way to conduct foreign affairs. They stayed out of social issues. Social conservatism is the offspring of the Dominionists and their so called religious right. As I said, dont try and comment on how conservatives think or what conservatives are. You dont have a fuckin clue.

Lorr47 -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/8/2009 10:05:40 PM)
Do republicans want to win elections or return their party to a "purity" that will guarantee their status as a minority party for years to come. If they want to win elections, they should look at how Pat Buchanan is handling the matter. (MarsBonfire has a coronary when I praise Buchanan but Buchanan is defending Obama every week on the McGlauchlin (sic) Report while holding fast to his populist conservative principles.) The republicans have the chance to tactically back Obama in his attempt to mend the economy while not taking much heat if it fails. The republicans have this opportunity because the democrats are not supporting Obama during the latest votes. America has changed but the republicans refuse to analyze the change. The voters , in my opinion, would look favorably on the republicans becoming the loyal opposition; more loyal than the democrats. And, I very much doubt if the majority of voters would blame republicans' Loyal Opposition for any failure. Then again it depends on whether you want to win or want purity for purity's sake.The vast majority of Americans like Obama and I feel that they like Obama for many of the reasons they liked Reagan.

Owner59 -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/8/2009 10:48:16 PM)
This is the GOP`s future. He`s leading the 'believers' into the ditch and is way to full of himself to give a shit. Recently, GOP leader Eric Cantor Jebb Bush and 'Mitt' started a something called the "National Council for a New America"(boy that smells fishy) and went on a "listening tour",until dearest leader, told them to stop. They stopped listening......lol Bunch of sheep.....bahh bahhh ahh....[:D] Until the extremists like Rush are purged,the GOP will continue toward irrelevance.Limbaugh jumped the shark when he went from shock jock entertainer/clown to wanna-be political guru.

CruelNUnsual -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/8/2009 10:52:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lorr47 Do republicans want to win elections or return their party to a "purity" that will guarantee their status as a minority party for years to come. If they want to win elections, they should look at how Pat Buchanan is handling the matter. (MarsBonfire has a coronary when I praise Buchanan but Buchanan is defending Obama every week on the McGlauchlin (sic) Report while holding fast to his populist conservative principles.) The republicans have the chance to tactically back Obama in his attempt to mend the economy while not taking much heat if it fails. The republicans have this opportunity because the democrats are not supporting Obama during the latest votes. America has changed but the republicans refuse to analyze the change. The voters , in my opinion, would look favorably on the republicans becoming the loyal opposition; more loyal than the democrats. And, I very much doubt if the majority of voters would blame republicans' Loyal Opposition for any failure. Then again it depends on whether you want to win or want purity for purity's sake.The vast majority of Americans like Obama and I feel that they like Obama for many of the reasons they liked Reagan. Its not a matter of "purity for purity's sake". Left unchecked Obama's policies will do serious and long term harm to the economy. "Loyal opposition" can only serve to enable that damage. I agree that they like Obama for similar reasons to Reagan's INITIAL popularity. The difference is Reagan's policies worked, both domestic and foreign policy. Obama's cannot work long term, and any semblence of support will taint any future GOP leader's chances. The Dems were "guaranteed to be a minority party" a very short time ago. How did they overcome that? By becoming far more radical, not more moderate, and presenting a contrast to policies that were portrayed as failures every chance they and the MSM had. Buchanan is dead wrong.

Owner59 -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/8/2009 10:56:28 PM)
How did they overcome that? george bush..... Thanks george.

CruelNUnsual -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/8/2009 11:08:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 This is the GOP`s future. He`s leading the 'believers' into the ditch and is way to full of himself to give a shit. Recently, GOP leader Eric Cantor Jebb Bush and 'Mitt' started a something called the "National Council for a New America"(boy that smells fishy) and went on a "listening tour",until dearest leader, told them to stop. They stopped listening......lol Bunch of sheep.....bahh bahhh ahh....[:D] Until the extremists like Rush are purged,the GOP will continue toward irrelevance.Limbaugh jumped the shark when he went from shock jock entertainer/clown to wanna-be political guru. If you read anything deeper than the Huffington Post or bothered to watch the entire clip you would know that Cantor was pushing back at Rush, not caving to him.

Lorr47 -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/8/2009 11:10:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 This is the GOP`s future. He`s leading the 'believers' into the ditch and is way to full of himself to give a shit. Recently, GOP leader Eric Cantor Jebb Bush and 'Mitt' started a something called the "National Council for a New America"(boy that smells fishy) and went on a "listening tour",until dearest leader, told them to stop. They stopped listening......lol Bunch of sheep.....bahh bahhh ahh....[:D] Until the extremists like Rush are purged,the GOP will continue toward irrelevance.Limbaugh jumped the shark when he went from shock jock entertainer/clown to wanna-be political guru. You have to be brain dead to follow any instructions or suggestions from Rush Limbaugh. The klutz could not even graduate from college and even flunked dance class. College certainly is not necessary for success but finishing something you start does show some character. Has he ever finished anything he started? Even during the Bush administration Limbaugh was warned that his employees would no longer be allowed to take the fall for his drug buying. I am waiting for Limbaugh to be arrested and neo conservatives saying that Obama has it in for him. Limbaugh was warned during the Bush administration. To allow your employees to be convicted for your actions is the height of moral decadence. If Limbaugh has the health problem I have heard , perhaps a better choice of tactics would be to lose some weight. Limbaugh's entire existence shows a sick hedonism that betrays low self esteem and no morals. And, they take orders from Limbaugh? How does Steele explain away this last episode. Previously Steele portrayed Limbaugh merely as an entertainer who does not have any leadership authority. Oh well, when you have a ship of clowns there has to be a chief clown. I am merely a liberal who thinks Obama is our best and probably last chance. Don't ask me about congress; that ship of fools.

Lorr47 -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (5/9/2009 12:15:23 AM)
quote: Its not a matter of "purity for purity's sake". Left unchecked Obama's policies will do serious and long term harm to the economy. "Loyal opposition" can only serve to enable that damage. I agree that they like Obama for similar reasons to Reagan's INITIAL popularity. The difference is Reagan's policies worked, both domestic and foreign policy. Obama's cannot work long term, and any semblence of support will taint any future GOP leader's chances. The Dems were "guaranteed to be a minority party" a very short time ago. How did they overcome that? By becoming far more radical, not more moderate, and presenting a contrast to policies that were portrayed as failures every chance they and the MSM had. Buchanan is dead wrong. When this economic mess started most economists were of the opinion that this event was so gigantic and so without precedence that there was no right answer. Lately, when I watch a news show the economists are no longer saying that there is no correct answer. The vast majority say Obama is doing the correct thing but not enough of it. In other words, the stimulus packages should be much larger with less tax cuts (Because the bang for the buck of a tax cut is substantially less than spending and represents adherence to the discredited trickle down theory.) Bush had the right idea but the wrong man, Paulson. I expect mammoth payoffs will be uncovered. Additionally,Paulson engineered a $13 billion payment from AIG to Goldman and another $100 billion plus payment to European banks. Hopefully Obama can avoid such pitfalls with the help of people like Summers. I would submit that some republicans are seeking purity for purity's sake. Republicans are virtually the only ones lobbying against what the rest of the nation wants. Republicans are virtually the only ones lobbying against what the vast majority of economists deem necessary. Ignoring what the American people wanted got the republicans in this fix in the first place. Compounding the initial mistake denotes a fanatic's loyalty to discreted theory. As to your Reagan assertion: I think it was several years ago there was a rather long program devoted to Reagan's legacy. I am trying to remember where I saw it because the contents surprised me. The program revealed that the only reason Reagan had a good legacy was the super human efforts taking by Bush in his term as president to stop the economy from tanking because of Reagan's economic theory. My estimation of Bush (the elder) went up substantially by virtue of the program. After the program I felt that Bush was seriously underestimated. If Bush had not taken the action he did there would have been a Reagan legacy, that of a senile old man whose conservative economic theories lead the U.S. into a deep recession. From the reports I have seen, I am hopeful that a clear change will be indicated by the late fall of 2009. Don't go harping on the unemployment statistics. Unemployment statistics are virtually the last to give an indication of an upturn. The bottom line is that I am not going to change your mind, and unless a lot of people change their opinions, you will not change my opinion.

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