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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 12:05:01 AM   
SnowRanger


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There is a school of thought that says "Alcohol (or other form of impairment) equals intent."  The theory follows this logic:  you intended to drink; you intended to get impaired; you intended the results of that impairment.  In Vino Veritas (well you get the idea).

One of my absolute hard limits is no drugs or alcohol before or during play. PERIOD

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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 12:36:48 AM   
stella41b


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With respect to the defence argument - risk awareness should never undermine or replace responsibility and the fact that there had been some drinking and also that both had ventured out to a safe depth for only one of them indicates at the very least that this awareness of risk was at best impaired, therefore the defence argument based on RACK is a weak one.

I would also question the validity of 'legally intoxicated'. This would only apply to my mind if you were driving or operating some sort of machinery and not in some hazardous environment such as the sea.

In order to bring about a conviction of first degree murder there needs to be evidence of some action which would be premeditated and which would result in the unlawful death of the other person. There is not enough evidence to suggest first degree murder.

However there is evidence of wilful negligence first off with the level of intoxication through alcohol, secondly through not responding to the woman struggling and thirdly through holding the woman down physically by the top of the head during the act.

I would therefore conclude with a verdict of guilty of second degree murder or the causing of death through diminished responsibility, in other words manslaughter.



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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 8:43:05 AM   
marie2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DvilsDom

Lady Pact,  I have talked with her and have the permission to repost her remarks, so here it is from Our Local Group...My first thoughts were, not enough information here to judge. To many unanswered questions for me, how much life insurance did he have on her? Was there someone else he was seeing? What were their finances like?

But then there was one question that answered it for me. Did he have his penis still? If so then it had to be an accident because if some one had their penis in my mouth and decided to drown me, well that would be gone before I was.

With penis..... innocent, without penis..... guilty

Helen

that is her remarks, God love that woman, a Damn Good Submissive


It doesn't matter, penis this or penis that.  He's already admitted to engaging in a breath-play game.  The bottom line is he's guilty of causing someone's death.   There might be a question of whether or not it was intentional, but even if it wasn't, he still participated in something that he knew was, at a minimum, dangerous and potentially life-threatening. 

I know the RACK enthusiasts and bdsm freedom zealots don't like to hear this, but it doesn't mean diddly squat if the girl consented.  Her consent to an illegal act is completely moot, since the sub doesn't have the authority to trump the law.

So it's not a question of whether or not he's guilty, it's a question of guilty of what....Murder, Manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, negligent homicide etc. 

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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 8:48:08 AM   
redheadredhead


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Guilty

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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 8:57:19 AM   
subangi


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I would imagine that if she were struggling, he would have had bite marks on his penis. When you truly cant breath, you panic , and do whatever you can to breath.  It makes no sense to me. 

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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 9:15:25 AM   
YoursMistress


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It's a sad story at least, to be sure.  I suspect that between impairment and distraction, his judgment on how long is too long and how much struggling is too much was insufficient to ensure the poor woman's safety.  Guilty. 

I have trouble saying that there would be bite marks, etc., as I don't know exactly what would happen in such a circumstance.  Determining that would require a series of controlled experiments which seem far more sinister than the case presented. 

yours


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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 9:30:58 AM   
CarrieO


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DvilsDom

The defense states that according to RACK, risk aware consentual
kink, that as T/they had done this numerous times before there was
no reason for Him to have questioned the safety or sanity of the act
any more than He had before. And that she was in fact a very
intelligent, very eager and willing participant in said act and in
fact initiated it, and as such she was aware of the risks she was
taking and felt they were minimal enough to proceed anyway.



This is what stood out for me in this post.  To claim that she was aware of the risks involved with this type of play leads to me understand that he also was aware of the risks. In other words...living with the consequences of your actions.  He chose to take part in what could be termed risky behavior while under the influence (legally or not) and in doing so is accountable for the outcome. He may not have intended to cause the death of this woman, but he needs to accept his role in her demise.

Guilty. The question is now one of to what degree.



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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 9:38:02 AM   
MissMorrigan


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Without a doubt - guilty of manslaughter regardless of 'rack' activities between them in their relationship. He is ultimately responsibile for her wellbeing.

As to the amount of alcohol consumed to qualify as 'legally intoxicated' or otherwise. Each person is different and while one or two drinks to the average person is considered unlikely to cause impairment, to someone such as myself who is a vitual teetotaller, one drink and I am drunk. I once saw a professional advance driving team undertake a test... there were required to perform a series of tests, take a break while consuming ONE small unit of sherry, then retake the test 30 minutes later. Every single person made errors they hadn't previously and each proclaimed that they did not feel any effects from the alcohol consumed.

Non-damage to the man's penis is still no indicator of innocence. When a person is gagging on an object they aren't able to bite, same if the end of the object is in the throat or so I'm led to believe by those in the medical field and I am in no way offering to be the guinea pig to disprove this. 

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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 9:51:04 AM   
Lashra


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I think he is guilty of neg homicide. He knew he should not drink and play, he should know that a human being cannot stay under the water indefinitely without breathing and if he admitted her saw her flailing about he should have had the common sense to let her up immediately. It is a tragic, stupid, senseless death. But sense none of us were there it is really hard to say what actually happened.

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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 9:56:49 AM   
cpK69


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I do not see enough evidence in the information provided, to believe beyond resonable doubt, he was the cause of her death.

Not Guilty.

Kim

Edited because sometimes, I get comma happy.  

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 4/19/2009 10:16:00 AM >


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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 10:44:53 AM   
thornhappy


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I'm just amazed that anyone could do that in salt water.  Did she keep her eyes shut the whole time?

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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 10:56:09 AM   
cpK69


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Ya know, there was one time, I was possitive I was breathing under water, or at least not feeling as though I needed air; the only reason I got my head out of the water, is being able to hear my friends asking each other if they thought I was alright.  Of course, I was drunk at the time.

Even with my 'underwater breathing abilities', don't think I would be successful at compleating the task; salt water or otherwise.

Kim

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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 10:56:25 AM   
subangi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

I'm just amazed that anyone could do that in salt water.  Did she keep her eyes shut the whole time?
My thoughts exactly!!!  I love the ocean but to have to taste whilst performing a function...wow!

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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 11:42:02 AM   
sambamanslilgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DvilsDom

To many unanswered questions for me, how much life insurance did he have on her? Was there someone else he was seeing? What were their finances like?


with this line of questioning, there's a noticeable hint of premeditated murder


my opinion - the guy's guilty of negligent homicide.

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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 3:54:24 PM   
porcelaine


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a truly sad case. both are responsible, she consented to sex under unwise circumstances as did he while both were knowingly under the influence. he's guilty of negligent homicide. death was never part of the bargain.

porcelaine


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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 3:55:59 PM   
RumpusParable


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Going just on what's there, guilty legally most likely... personal opinion-wise, just a sad accident.

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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 3:57:58 PM   
CatdeMedici


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Guilty on two counts:
 
Negligent Homicide
 
Aggravated Stupidity

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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 4:28:28 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DvilsDom

A couple, Dom/sub for many years, in their mid 30's, living as D/s
for several years real time decided to go on a well deserved
vacation to Bermuda. While there, as do a lot of other couples,
they have a couple of beers but are not legally intoxicated. In
broad daylight they decide to go out into the ocean together. As He
is several inches taller than she is they go a little more than
waist deep on Him but she wraps her legs around Him, He carries her,
etc. They are amorous and hugging and kissing, etc and she decides
this would be a good time for a little teasing under water so she
starts to give Him a blow job. (you can see where this is going
huh?) Occasionally she comes up for air then goes back and is
obviously enjoying it. They have practiced breath play before, and
in fact have done this same under water scenerio before without
incident. However this time He sees no sign of distress from her.
No resistance when He places His hand on her head, no fighting or
struggling from her to indicate she is out of air. Nothing until she
goes lax and floats up to the top at which point He notices, takes
her back to the beach and CPR is performed to no avail. the sub
died. cause of death: drowning. The man, Dom, is arrested and
charged with manslaughter.

The prosecution states that at the time of arrest He did make a
statement that she was flailing around slightly in the water at one
point but He took it for her trying to stay under the water. They
also state at the time of His arrest He had scratches on His thighs,
presumably from her nails. He says it was incidental in her trying
to keep herself in the position to finish the blowjob as the waves
were moving her around a bit and making it harder for her but that
He never even noticed them. He admits He held her head under water
during the blowjob but for a few seconds only and then He'd let go
and she'd come back up for air. This was a normal practice for them
and had been done by them, as ive said, several times before.

The defense states that according to RACK, risk aware consentual
kink, that as T/they had done this numerous times before there was
no reason for Him to have questioned the safety or sanity of the act
any more than He had before. And that she was in fact a very
intelligent, very eager and willing participant in said act and in
fact initiated it, and as such she was aware of the risks she was
taking and felt they were minimal enough to proceed anyway.

also of note: in the coroner's report there was no semen in her
stomach contents indicating that the drowning occured as a result of
her trying to swallow. she had no underlying heart or other health
problems that would have contributed to her death and she was not
legally intoxicated but she did have some alcohol in her blood.

these are the facts as Ive read them. if there are other
extenuating circumstances Im unaware of them. so whats your opinion:
is He guilty of manslaughter/ murder, or not guilty?



Something tells me this ain't a real story (or he indeed murdered her).

If it was....he'd be missing his dick.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 4/19/2009 4:29:14 PM >

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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 4:39:40 PM   
Arpig


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Like Lookie, I disbelieve the story, however, if it were true then I would say yes, guilty of whatever the local equvalent of Manslaughter/Negligent Homicide is.

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RE: Guilty Or Not - 4/19/2009 4:49:48 PM   
marie2


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I also think it's a hypothetical, but it's not really out of the realm of possibility that something like this could happen, or has happened.

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