RE: Hard Limits

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SilverMoonSlave -> RE: Hard Limits (4/19/2009 10:38:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RavenMuse Nice to see a girl viewing limits the same way as I do. Within a relationship My girl doesn't have limits, she lives within Mine. I have a duty of care which covers the rest. Hard limits are things that would damage My property causing her HARM... I will happily hurt her but there is a world of difference between hurt and HARM. If, to take an extream example, I ordered My girl to jump off a cliff..... That would be in direct contradiction to My duty of care and thus I would not BE the person she believed in and submitted to... she would rightly withdraw consent and leave if I tried to force the issue. Less extream examples however can be less clear cut. If the Master believes the action would NOT cause HARM (However unpleasent the girl may find it isn't relevant) but the girl believes it would... then it would be discussed. Wether she is able to point out some factor I haddn't accounted for and thus show Me that I did have reason to change My decision isn't the point here, if both are still of the same opinion after such a discussion..... The end of the day she either trusts My judgement or she doesn't, if she doesn't, then We are at an impass. Either she takes that leap of faith and is shown I was right (Risking that she was right, but no Master worth their salt would push that hard unless They where 100% sure!) or she removes consent and walks. Thank you. That is how I can see a relationship with a Master will be. To trust that he has my and our best interests at heart.

SilverMoonSlave -> RE: Hard Limits (4/19/2009 10:43:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LovingMistress45 I believe all people have limits (or don't dos - kind of like that phrasing) and have a right to them. I also agree with Domin8tingUrDrmz that it is the owner that sets the slave's limits. Now having said that I also believe that one does not enter into a slave relationship quickly as it does mean giving up those rights. The potential slave should get to know the one they are considering very well before becoming that dominant's slave. It is important that the potential owner's hard limits are in agreement with the slave's. However, reality is that anytime a slave feels that he/she is not being respected he/she can walk out the door. So in a way saying the limits are set by the owner is not totally accurate. Very good point!! That has been a sticking point with me... coming across Doms who think that immediately I will do absolutely anythng asked of me. When I tell them that I require a deep caring and trust for a person to be able to submit fully, they understand, but are perturbed.

SilverMoonSlave -> RE: Hard Limits (4/19/2009 10:45:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder I made it easy on myself. I chose a Master who has the same limits as myself...but then again I never had a huge giant list of them. Mine were simply things that would have caused me to go to jail, kill me or harm me so much I'd end up in a mental ward. LOL.. but a good point none the less! As is my wish, to meet someone with similar proclivities.

SilverMoonSlave -> RE: Hard Limits (4/19/2009 10:49:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catize quote: Now this concerns a situation where you have initially discussed desires and needs and then later on a Master wants you to do something that you know will cause you harm either mentally or physically. There are several things about hard limits discussions that frustrate me a great deal. My hard limits are mine. It doesn’t matter that my dominant has some of the same hard limits. They were mine before I met him, and they will still be mine if he is no longer in my life. It’s all well and good to talk about trust that the dominant will not cause me harm; but I feel the dominant should trust me; trust that I am able to define harm for myself. Trust that I have valid reasons for those hard limits and I’m not just making it up to avoid things. Trust that when I say “I can’t” it doesn’t mean “I won’t” or “I don’t wanna.” It really means that I cannot do it. A dominant can have any damn limit he/she wants. That’s the nature of D/s. But a discussion of a dominant’s limits goes like this: D. :I don’t do X.” s. “OK” <scratches it off the list of possible fun stuff we’re gonna do.> On the other hand, a discussion about a submissive’s hard limits goes on and on; explanations, painful revelations which may not even have an impact on the dominant’s final decision, the knowledge that the dominant may bring it up again in the future, ‘revisit’ the option to see if that limit has changed, or to see if I have “grown” in my submission. It is my opinion, based on past experience, that pushing hard limits has little to do with my well-being and has a lot to do with the dominant wanting it all at any cost. (The above is a strongly held opinion, and as always YMMV) Damn good points!! Thank you! I love where you mention "...but I feel the dominant should trust me; trust that I am able to define harm for myself. Trust that I have valid reasons for those hard limits and I’m not just making it up to avoid things. Trust that when I say “I can’t” it doesn’t mean “I won’t” or “I don’t wanna.” It really means that I cannot do it" Sums it all up eh?

RealSub58 -> RE: Hard Limits (4/19/2009 11:05:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMoonSlave quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Plenty of hard limits threads. Yes, and I feel like a complete dolt for posting. Chalk it up to my frame of mind seeing the other posts as not quite hitting what I was getting at... but I see they were on the mark just in another form. My apologies. This is gonna sound like a snobbish and uncaring reply to the OP, but why the hell did ya post if ya agree with everything everyone seems to say? Just to get noticed? And with slave attached to your name, you must have already known that you would agree with everything. So I am gonna assume some other dolt made you question what you already understood for yourself. Mr Barker says it well ~~ 'Make what your heart instructs, and don't let anyone persuade you to compromise with your own truth.'

littleone35 -> RE: Hard Limits (4/19/2009 11:43:06 AM)
Master knows my hard limits and respects them. He has most of the same limits as well. One thing we do was a hard limit at first and now it is something i like. I decided to try it because itis something he really likes. With anyone but Master it would be a hard limit. Master would never say ok we are going to do this if he knew it was a hard limit. He knows that if he broke one of my hard limits i would be gone. He knows that because we discussed it right from the start. If something changes and i want to try something that was a hard limit i would tell Master, then of course it would be up to him if we did it or not. He would never make me do anything the would harm me in any way Mentally, emotonlly or physically. He loves me and would never do anything to harm me. Matt's littleone

catize -> RE: Hard Limits (4/19/2009 12:24:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RavenMuse quote: ORIGINAL: catize I feel the dominant should trust me; trust that I am able to define harm for myself. I am the one setting the perameters of the relationship, the definitions are Mine and if the girl can't accept those she can find someone else with whom she is more compatable because she ain't compatable with Me. This is not about who sets the parameters. It is about trust and that it should be a two way street. It is about my dominant giving credence to my insight and honesty. And if he does not know me well enough to rely on my insight and honesty, if he cannot trust me to define harm for myself, then we need to take time for that to happen. And if he is not willing to take that time, then yes, we would be incompatible.

RavenMuse -> RE: Hard Limits (4/19/2009 12:43:26 PM)
No we wouldn't be. Information can come from any source but the decisions only get made in one place..... Mine

DesFIP -> RE: Hard Limits (4/19/2009 1:22:34 PM)
Some limits we have in common, others are individual. Neither of us is into scat or e coli. But he would do inverted suspension without a qualm. I'm the one with the vertigo therefore I'm the one who lists it as a hard limit. Now I'm the one who wanted to do breath play, but he's hard limited it because there is no way to reduce risk to zero. We have different limits but the same objective, happiness of both parties in the relationship and the continuation of the relationship. And on those occasions where we are of absolutely opposite opinions we have discovered that it really means there isn't enough info to make the decision and it needs to be referred to a professional.

SilverMoonSlave -> RE: Hard Limits (4/19/2009 2:18:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealSub58 quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMoonSlave quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Plenty of hard limits threads. Yes, and I feel like a complete dolt for posting. Chalk it up to my frame of mind seeing the other posts as not quite hitting what I was getting at... but I see they were on the mark just in another form. My apologies. This is gonna sound like a snobbish and uncaring reply to the OP, but why the hell did ya post if ya agree with everything everyone seems to say? Just to get noticed? And with slave attached to your name, you must have already known that you would agree with everything. So I am gonna assume some other dolt made you question what you already understood for yourself. Mr Barker says it well ~~ 'Make what your heart instructs, and don't let anyone persuade you to compromise with your own truth.' Too funny! No, I did not anticipate agreeing with anything anyone will post. Not at all. And no, no other dolt made me question myself. I know my answer to my question, and I stand firm! Having slave attached to my name does not mean I do not have a mind of my own. I was just curious as to what other think. That is all there is to it. LOL! Get noticed? I've been on this site for over a year and before today I posted all of what.. 4, 5 posts! Please!

catize -> RE: Hard Limits (4/19/2009 3:12:47 PM)
RavenMuse, I (obviously) do not always agree with you, but I find your posts and opinions to be clear and thought provoking. I do greatly appreciate your philosophy of Duty of Care and wish more of those who would be dominant considered it as important as you do. I don’t set limits frivolously. Something has an “ick” factor? NOT a limit! Something scares me? NOT a limit! Something I’ve never done before? NOT a limit (at least until I’ve tried it!) Something I don’t like but is not harmful? NOT a limit! My opinion on this subject is admittedly colored by past unpleasant experiences, ranging from not being heard at all, as well having an agreement and then was constantly bombarded with complaints that I had that limit. (Those men are clearly no longer in my life). I’m not arguing against the dominant making the decisions and setting the parameters. I guess I just don’t understand why my definition of harm cannot simply be accepted for what it is---the truth. catize

RavenMuse -> RE: Hard Limits (4/19/2009 3:20:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catize I’m not arguing against the dominant making the decisions and setting the parameters. I guess I just don’t understand why my definition of harm cannot simply be accepted for what it is---the truth There is no 'argument' either way. That is simply how things run in this household. your definition would be accepted for what it is... information. Now you seem sensible enough that discussion of each issue would probably lead Me to agree but it isn't the girls decision (In this household) that is My job.

trainedobedients -> RE: Hard Limits (4/19/2009 5:23:02 PM)
Hard limits. I agree with the opinion that slaves have none and the hard limits are set by their owner. Submissives have choices and maybe hard limits. I am a slave and have none, thought I would never drink his pee and did when he ordered me to. It was degrading and fulfilling at the same time. We, before accepting his collar, discussed all these until we both got bored with it and the result is that we are both on the same page. I feel a lot of slaves/subs jump into quickly. It should be more than taking care of your scratch, we talk about relationships.

VelvetCruelty -> RE: Hard Limits (4/19/2009 5:30:23 PM)
I am sick to death of the slave/submissive argument. A twue slave has no limits, a submissive has choices - my ass. You are a human being, you always have choices. If you feel something will bring you HARM either physically or emotionally and you have let your dominant know ahead of time that it is a HARD LIMIT. Then, gawdamn it, IT'S A FUCKING LIMIT. If they cannot, or will not accept that, then run for the hills! The creed of BDSM is supposed to be SAFE, SANE AND CONSENSUAL. You beautiful lady, should never accept anything less. I do wish you luck and safety in your search. [:)]

catize -> RE: Hard Limits (4/19/2009 8:47:01 PM)
[sm=cheering.gif] quote: If you feel something will bring you HARM either physically or emotionally and you have let your dominant know ahead of time that it is a HARD LIMIT. Then, gawdamn it, IT'S A FUCKING LIMIT. [sm=champ.gif] [sm=applause.gif]

marysdream -> RE: Hard Limits (4/19/2009 9:14:21 PM)
hi i think sub/slave whatever you choose to call yourself...first off we are humans! we are allowed to have hard limits. if a D/M states otherwise i would question his integrity..and sanity! good luck ree!

marie2 -> RE: Hard Limits (4/19/2009 9:47:30 PM)
GR So far, I've never had a "hard limit's" issue with anyone I've been involved in. I've been pushed beyond things that I didn't think I could do and I've even been sort of head-fucked into a thing or two that I didn't feel ready for, but the bottom line has always been that I was aware of myself and aware of the fact that I was out of my comfort zone and I always allowed it willingly to happen. And I haven't regretted it yet. However, I've not yet had a situation or relationship where I had to lay something out on the table and say....for instance (this is a fictional example)....I was raped 10 yrs ago and the assaillant slapped me in the face and called me a bitch, and now I think it would do me psychological damage to be slapped in the face and called a bitch by my master. First of all, I wouldn't even be with a man so fucking stupid that he would try to push through something like that, and second of all, if he was all poofed up with ego about being the big manly man who made the decision not to go there, after considering my input as useful information, I'd be laughing my ass off, because no matter how you slice it, it would be the sub's self-awareness and ability to convey that awareness, that saved her the damage. Bottom line, know yourself, trust yourself and find a partner who gives you the credit for it.

RavenMuse -> RE: Hard Limits (4/20/2009 12:37:44 AM)
quote: I'd be laughing my ass off, because no matter how you slice it, it would be the sub's self-awareness and ability to convey that awareness, that saved her the damage. Really, well personaly I'd pity any poor cow that got involved with someone who didn't take His responcibilitys seriously. For one thing when considering what would cause harm and what would not... one side is prone to wanting to please, in a new situation is prone to not want to be seen to have too many barriers and limitation and is likely to downplay things as a result.... the Otherside of that equasion has no driving need to please, has the lions share of the responcibility for safety issues and often has the more life experience of the two (The Dominant being Older is far more common that the other way around)...... And in My case I have a psyche background and will oft catch where something is being downplayed when it carrys a very real chance of harm. Often I impose more in the way of bounderys and cautions than the girl would have felt comfortable in raising. Now if you think I am about to trust that to the person least suitable you are VERY much mistaken. One of the reasons a girl submits to Me is because she trusts in My judgement and with good reason. Also I deal mostly with slaves, not bratty playbunnys!

WyldHrt -> RE: Hard Limits (4/20/2009 1:16:18 AM)
quote: Also I deal mostly with slaves, not bratty playbunnys! That was fairly offensive, RM. [8\|]

RavenMuse -> RE: Hard Limits (4/20/2009 2:18:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt quote: Also I deal mostly with slaves, not bratty playbunnys! That was fairly offensive, RM. [8\|] Only to those who want to take offence. I deal with slaves, they are more likely to desplay the traits I mentioned. A bratty playbunny isn't likely to submit so isn't pulled to please in the same way.

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