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Need - 4/19/2009 8:15:40 PM

MasterDoc1

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A thesis for discussion: in a D/S relationship it is necessary/preferable/inevitable (pick which) that the submissive need/love/care more for the dominant than the dominant for the submissive. True or false?

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RE: Need - 4/19/2009 8:19:02 PM

NihilusZero

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False.

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RE: Need - 4/19/2009 8:23:35 PM

littlewonder

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False

Depends on the relationship

Me personally I want it all.

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RE: Need - 4/19/2009 8:24:36 PM

NihilusZero

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A more interesting point, however: I think it is possible/preferable for some to have the submissive care more than the Dominant. However (and I'm willing to be proven wrong on this), I don't think anyone interested in such a dynamic would prefer a situation where the Dominant cares more than the submissive.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 4/19/2009 8:26:02 PM >

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RE: Need - 4/19/2009 8:24:53 PM

DarkSteven

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I would argue that the form of "caring" is different for both. So how would you compare them? Time spent? Effort?

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RE: Need - 4/19/2009 8:27:49 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I would argue that the form of "caring" is different for both. So how would you compare them? Time spent? Effort?

Devotion. Vulnerability (how much each has to lose). Granted I don't think there's any universal means to measure these, but we can at least assume they are measured by the individuals in the relationship. That is to say, that mutual agreement by all parties in the relationship would be the barometer of how much caring each individual is offering up.

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RE: Need - 4/19/2009 8:42:16 PM

kuriouswitch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1

A thesis for discussion: in a D/S relationship it is necessary/preferable/inevitable (pick which) that the submissive need/love/care more for the dominant than the dominant for the submissive. True or false?

false.
It isn't about who loves whom more, that turns it from a relationship into a contest. It's a never ending cycle, there are times when I'm lost and in more need of Master than he is of me at that moment. And there have been a few private moments when Master has needed me more than I needed him at that time.

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RE: Need - 4/19/2009 8:46:14 PM

HeavansKeeper

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1

A thesis for discussion: in a D/S relationship it is necessary/preferable/inevitable (pick which) that the submissive need/love/care more for the dominant than the dominant for the submissive. True or false?

Two creatures cannot need, love, or care for each other equally. In every single capacity, one is higher than the other. There are various fields in which we measure need/love/caring, and one person doesn't have to win all the events, but there are no perfect ties.

The closer in all fields, the better, I suppose. A completely one sided relationship is unhealthy. With that premise, I do not deal with which one sided relationship is better - they're similarly bad.

I don't think it much matters who averages out to be a little more caring/loving/needy.

In terms of expressing oneself in western society, I believe the submissive is given more leeway. I have told my pet that when she is the river, I am the stone. When she is scared, I will stand in front of her. When she is brave, behind her. And other zen-heavy metaphors.

Right now, we're in a long distance thing. She is quite open about missing me. She cries, she mopes, she gets frustrated. I feel the same stressors she does, but I don't show them. Maybe it's the whole "boys don't cry" thing our society is so fond of. To the outsider, she needs me far more than I need her. But that's not true.

Edit: There's an "e" in "more".

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RE: Need - 4/19/2009 8:51:25 PM

crazyredhead1957

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1

A thesis for discussion: in a D/S relationship it is necessary/preferable/inevitable (pick which) that the submissive need/love/care more for the dominant than the dominant for the submissive. True or false?

i would say false. i want it all, and i would hope He does too. Otherwise W/we aren't compatible. i think it's a matter of E/each O/one getting what He or she needs at any given time. Relationships should be fluid and not stagnant to be healthy, and healthy is what i want anyway.

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RE: Need - 4/19/2009 9:06:23 PM

peppermint

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No discussion. False

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RE: Need - 4/19/2009 9:16:48 PM

AngelGeena

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False.

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RE: Need - 4/19/2009 9:19:17 PM

marysdream

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False!!!!

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RE: Need - 4/19/2009 10:04:55 PM

catize

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Although it is a legal term, the question made me think of the phrase “cui bono” meaning literally ‘to whose benefit?’
By caring are we talking about the emotional investment?
Is the definition of caring dependent on whether you get or give more?
And is the prime beneficiary the one who takes/gets more, or could it be there are more benefits to the giver?

I think that at any given time it is inevitable that one or the other will have stronger feelings and I believe that it changes based on circumstances.
Why would it be preferable for the dominant to always care less? I know that there is the argument that emotional entanglements might cause the dominant to lose control in the dynamic. I guess I have faith that the capable dominants will manage the helm quite well even so.
Is it necessary that one cares more than the other? I quote a friend of mine; “In a good relationship, both parties feel they are getting the best part of the bargain.”

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RE: Need - 4/19/2009 10:55:41 PM

HeavansKeeper

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Why is it so many people who answered "false" do not explain their position? The question at hand has merit, and I feel cannot be adequately dimissed in one word.

I understand the instant response. My first response was "Pppffft, no!" but consider further.

The principle of least interest states that the party who loves more has less power. They no longer hold the ace, the "I could always leave" card. I'm not, IN ANY WAY advocating the use of relational aggression as a healthy dynamic between people, but having the ability to use (without actually using) that abusive card is an increase of power.

Isn't that what D/s is about? Increasing the power of one party while lowering the power of another? (Note, we're not discussing S&M dynamics, as per the prompt.)

Perhaps rephrasing the question makes it more enjoyable to play with. Is the power difference greater, less, or the same when the dominant exhibits more love than the submissive?

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RE: Need - 4/19/2009 11:08:55 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper

Isn't that what D/s is about? Increasing the power of one party while lowering the power of another?

That's the difference between coercion/manipulation and consent (even if the consent is to be coerced and/or manipulated).

There are two aspects to this, and both sway based on intent and awareness. As you mentioned before, perfect balance may not always exist (although that can't be measured exactly, so it makes not much difference). Concerning an imbalance of care/love by the Dom, 4 situations seem possible to me:

1) The Dom does not love/care as much as the sub and neither the Dom or sub are acutely aware of it.
2) The Dom does not love/care as much as the sub and the Dom is aware of it but the sub is not.
3) The Dom does not love/care as much as the sub and the sub is aware of it but the Dom is not.
4) The Dom does not love/care as much as the sub and both are aware of it.

4 is a matter of willing and chosen consent and arguably since both parties seem to be in agreement that this is what they want, the care/love dynamic is actually even (in its own weird way).
1 is honest but either a product of improper communication or naivete.
2 and 3 are either products of denial or duplicity (intentional or not).

Power exchange represent levels of control relinquished and acquired. It doesn't directly translate to the love/care aspect of the discussion.

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RE: Need - 4/19/2009 11:23:21 PM

YoungBlondeSlave

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False. It's highly likely sure, i mean, i have always needed my (previous) owner more than he needed me i believe. At least, i think i was much more open about it.

But, we also have different needs that are met by each other. He would have me to love and serve him and do anything to please him. And i would have him to guide, nurture and protect me. To help me develop into the kind of girl that he needed to please him.

In regards to the loving and caring...obviously there is a different kind of love and caring that a submissive has for her Dom than a Dom has for his submissive. i can't explain it, but that's what i feel anyhow.

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RE: Need - 4/19/2009 11:55:51 PM

servantheart

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False.

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RE: Need - 4/20/2009 12:11:31 AM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper

Isn't that what D/s is about? Increasing the power of one party while lowering the power of another?

That's the difference between coercion/manipulation and consent (even if the consent is to be coerced and/or manipulated).

There are two aspects to this, and both sway based on intent and awareness. As you mentioned before, perfect balance may not always exist (although that can't be measured exactly, so it makes not much difference). Concerning an imbalance of care/love by the Dom, 4 situations seem possible to me:

1) The Dom does not love/care as much as the sub and neither the Dom or sub are acutely aware of it.
2) The Dom does not love/care as much as the sub and the Dom is aware of it but the sub is not.
3) The Dom does not love/care as much as the sub and the sub is aware of it but the Dom is not.
4) The Dom does not love/care as much as the sub and both are aware of it.

4 is a matter of willing and chosen consent and arguably since both parties seem to be in agreement that this is what they want, the care/love dynamic is actually even (in its own weird way).
1 is honest but either a product of improper communication or naivete.
2 and 3 are either products of denial or duplicity (intentional or not).

Power exchange represent levels of control relinquished and acquired. It doesn't directly translate to the love/care aspect of the discussion.

I think the ascertion in the 4th scenario is not entirely true here.
Just because the submissive chooses to stay if the Dom/me in question is not reciprocal with love/care does not meant that is what s/he wants, it just means that is what s/he will accept.

Other thoughts:
We are discussing quantifying something very difficult and within relationships our imperfect perceptions don't always match up with facts.

In relationships things are more fluid than static.

Do I think that a free exchange of love within a D/s relationship skews the power exchange dynamic?
I don't think it has to and ideally it won't, but sometimes it does.

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RE: Need - 4/20/2009 12:54:10 AM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

I think the ascertion in the 4th scenario is not entirely true here.
Just because the submissive chooses to stay if the Dom/me in question is not reciprocal with love/care does not meant that is what s/he wants, it just means that is what s/he will accept.

If that is what the sub chooses/accepts, the presumption must be that that is what s/he wants. It's entirely the responsibility of every individual (sub or Dom) to make his/her own decisions. I mean, what is realistically the option? Psycho-analyzing them to determine whether they know what they want and/or whether they are capable of making that decision?

If what we choose isn't what we want, that's no one's fault but our own.

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

Other thoughts:
We are discussing quantifying something very difficult and within relationships our imperfect perceptions don't always match up with facts.

When it comes to relationships (and the interactions thereof) there are no "imperfect" perceptions, only incompatible ones. It's difficult to talk about it from the outside looking in, in that sense, but the measuring is done specifically by the perceptions of the individuals in the relationship. Facts become pointless at that point. This community is a prime example...since an example such as flogging would probably convey a positive 'perception' among many here, but would convey a startlingly negative feeling towards more vanilla-oriented folk.

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

Do I think that a free exchange of love within a D/s relationship skews the power exchange dynamic?
I don't think it has to and ideally it won't, but sometimes it does.

Then we agree. I have reservations about how the word 'love' ends up getting used in these sort of discussions, but I think the better way to put it is that equal level of fulfillment is what is strived for...and, ironically, in situations where it is not sought, that too is done with having an indirect fulfillment level reached.

It's like the old hedonism/altruism argument: that everyone is inevitably a hedonist because even in altruistic actions, the individual enacts them because it's what they think is "best", which is a fulfillment of self ideals.

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RE: Need - 4/20/2009 2:36:47 AM

CollaredLisa

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Hmmm.... judging from my own (limited to one relationship) experience I'd say the statement is false. I don't really know if one of us loves or cares more. I know that it's important to him that I am... well, happy, just as much as I care that he is happy... We might express our caring/ our love a little differently at times, but I guess that's normal in every relationship, not just in D/s ones.

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