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ORIGINAL: InTonguesslave

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ORIGINAL: agirl

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ORIGINAL: InTonguesslave



a Master leads a slave follows - even when it is something she isnt liking all that much.  if at the end of it all she decides its way too much and doing her more harm than good she should leave, but whose culpable.  the Master for pushing his slave to that decision or the slave for agreeing to try it against her better judgement.

both i would imagine but it would perhaps be harder for a slave to see her culpability when all that she was doing was following her Master and trusting in his judgement over all matters concerning her health and happyness.

a dichotomy exists where on one hand a slave might feel deep down that something does not feel right to her, but her dedication to her Master pushes her on.  i think that at that moment she must take responsibility for her decision to continue, for her own well being and self worth.  if it goes tits up then she can accept her part in it.  if she doesnt the liklihood is that she will blame her Master for making the wrong decision, lay culpability entirely at his door and feel profoundly miserable.

A Master leads, yes.......but he needs to know what the hell he's leading. And SHE chose to be led by HIM. If she *decides it way too much* .....and he's pushing her to the point of jumping ship.........it's down to not knowing each other well enough or incompatability. That's a case of either * we need to talk more* ...or *we're not a good match*.

If something doesn't *feel right*....no matter how dedicated I might be to M, no matter how much I trust him.....it's up to ME to tell him. It's foolish to withold information and even RISK things going *tits up* out of some notion of dedication.

A lot of the time that girls do this, is not out of dedication ....but not wanting to disappoint/upset or be a bother...which I find equally foolish.

The right thing to do is to pass information.....so that correct decisions can be made. There need be no blame.

Most of the time that people post a woeful tale here....it's only one aspect that they are asking about. It doesn't automatically mean they have no sense of responsibility for their own part in other things. Sometimes we can't see the wood for the trees and it can be helpful to have someone outside of the situation to give a little nudge.

agirl

i totally agree with you on all of that.  at some point the adult in the adult relationship, has to decide whether everything is in place to follow through with well placed trust or leave because the trust feels misused.

but situations arise i think, when the trust might be healthy but the request is 'wrong' for the submissive/slave in question at that time or in the future.  you can talk till youre blue in the face but when push comes to shove the Master is in the driving seat and it is at that point that a slave/sub has to make up their mind.

its when they dont make up their mind but follow because in all other situations their Master has proved himself that things can get foggy and messy.

sometimes situations do arise in an Ms or Ds situation where sitting on the fence really isnt the option but ends up being the one taken.  if sitting on the fence the last time worked out for them then it becomes the more attractive option to walking the next time something comes up.

im more talking about those decisions that have been discussed and the M or D has said, fine, ok, not for now, but in the future, we will discuss it again.  the s'type can realise from that this thing being mooted is something that their Dominant requires from them.

we are talking investment here, of emotions and a depth of submission that isnt just chucked out of the window at the first or second hurdle.  their submission is at the core of their being and the chains that hold them fast are hard to break away from partly because they are dedicated (and it is genuinely felt, not a passive feeling atall) and partly because they want to please and partly because they want more to stay with their Master than reach an empass and part company.

im not sure if thats hanging in there beyond the point of reason or compatibility or if its holding true to their beliefs that a slave will sometimes be asked to do things and accept things in exchange, in a way, for the Mastery of them that works on every other level.

but yes, the Dominant needs to know what and who he is leading and ensure that his requests are not wrong for the submissive in question.  that is a huge responsiblity and one to never be taken lightly.

we have had a few posts fairly recently about limits being set up from the begining that the Dominant agreed to and then further down the track pressed for.  in a sense he said to the submissive in question 'ok, i accept that' - to then renaig on that is confusing for a submissive.  her refusal had been accepted at the start, she should therefore feel confident to continue refusing on those grounds.  but, as we've seen, it actually doesnt pan like that - who is culpable then?  the Dominant for sure, but is the submissive culpable if she sticks it out and tries it, hates it and feels hurt and used and confused, when all that she has done is what is expected of her within the remit of her 'contract', to serve, obey and please her Master.

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ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

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ORIGINAL: InTonguesslave
Culpability and responsibility should be taken at the beginning, not at the end when it all goes wrong—i would guess that it often goes wrong because responsibility and culpability weren't properly weighed up and measured from the very start.

You nailed it.

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ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

Over the last few days we have seen some great OP about relationships that should never be,  relationships that ended, relationships that went south--what I haven't seen and what I seldom see is culpability--the whole, " He made Me because He was Master, " "She forced me"-"he has to do what I tell him---She is My slave"--where is the culpability?

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That the rules of engagement are different?
 

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Culpability, what say you?

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ORIGINAL: agirl
If something doesn't *feel right*....no matter how dedicated I might be to M, no matter how much I trust him.....it's up to ME to tell him. It's foolish to withold information and even RISK things going *tits up* out of some notion of dedication.


The right thing to do is to pass information.....so that correct decisions can be made. There need be no blame.

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ORIGINAL: agirl
Yes....because the majority of people that find themselves in these situations didn't get to know each other first. I agree with this by Marc...


***I often get the feeling there isn't enough consideration paid to the theory of D/s by many of those who claim to pursue it. I often suspect much of the interest is explorative and sensational—a passing "deviant" interest of a sort, or perhaps more cynically, just another way of bagging a traditional mate in the end. To each their own, of course, but no matter what, I think it's important for us to know what we are getting into, and take responsibility for it. I don't think that can be stressed enough—particularly if one is entering consensual slavery, and understands what that arrangement ultimately entails.***

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ORIGINAL: DesFIP

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ORIGINAL: agirl
If something doesn't *feel right*....no matter how dedicated I might be to M, no matter how much I trust him.....it's up to ME to tell him. It's foolish to withold information and even RISK things going *tits up* out of some notion of dedication.


The right thing to do is to pass information.....so that correct decisions can be made. There need be no blame.

Agreed. But what if the dominant is the sort that doesn't want to hear anything bad? And this happens a lot.

The accountability for the s comes in having chose him in the first place. But again, who among us has had training in self awareness and healthy relationships? This isn't taught it any school I know. We learn what's unhealthy by getting into those relationships and learning from our bad experience. Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment.

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 Even in a case of a mistaken perception/belief, it takes two or more for it to happen.  

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ORIGINAL: catize

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 Even in a case of a mistaken perception/belief, it takes two or more for it to happen.  

How would I be responsible for someone’s mistaken belief or perception of me, particularly if they have not told me what that perception/belief is? 
Or if I do find out and I attempt to discuss it but they refuse, and cling to their misperception, what then am I culpable of?
I have a choice regarding whether I can live with it or not, but I am not accountable for what they think. 

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ORIGINAL: catize

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 Even in a case of a mistaken perception/belief, it takes two or more for it to happen.  

How would I be responsible for someone’s mistaken belief or perception of me, particularly if they have not told me what that perception/belief is? 
Or if I do find out and I attempt to discuss it but they refuse, and cling to their misperception, what then am I culpable of?
I have a choice regarding whether I can live with it or not, but I am not accountable for what they think. 

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ORIGINAL: InTonguesslave

In most relationships of length there's an investment of emotion and commitment ....( I'll leave aside the 'submissive to my core' bit as it get used too often as an excuse not to deal with unpleasant conversations and situations) ....it's still vital to open your mouth and say stuff. let's not make it about D/s.... people do the same thing in every type of relationship. (quote agirl)
 
yes, i agree, but there is a difference in D/s Ms relationships depending on the depth of submission involved.

You might have to explain that to me. I may well be missing your point....What levels of submission are there?

you can go from mainstream relationships where everything should be on the table because thats their dynamic, to one of absolute TPE where there is no discussion on things or if there is the final decision will always rest with the Dominant anyway.

That doesn't render informing your dom a waste of time. If he's to make decent informed decisions ...he needs to be informed.

again you can ask to discuss something until youre blue in the face but it makes not a jot of difference if the Dominant in question is hell bent on this thing happening.  maybe not today or tomorrow but at some point in the future.

If it's something she's agreed to *sometime in the future* I see no problem with this. Informing him on your feelings is still important.

thats when culpability starts to get iffy in D/s or Ms relationships where the level of submission is far deeper than a more lighter, looser arrangement between Dominant and sub.

Are you referring to the type of commitment between BOTH?

with absolute respect, you can scorn the 'submissive to the core' comment, but for some that is how it is and they take their submission to their Dominant extremely seriously, it isnt a copout atall, it is how it is and how they feel.  to step out of the loop and question or try to reverse a decision is anathama, it is taking control they do not want to take, it is, dare i say, tantamount to topping from the bottom for many.

I didn't scorn it ...I left it out for the reasons I mentioned. I was clear in my sentence why.

Taking your commitment seriously, includes giving your dom, the person who has the responsibility for making good decisions ........all and any information he needs to make them..not using it as an excuse to NOT do so. It has nothing to do with topping from the bottom and a lot to do with being a responsible part of the relationship. Informing him of your feelings isn't taking control in any way, it's aiding HIM to do his job well.

therefore, for a Dominant to change the agenda to such an extent that the submissive or slave is put in a difficult position the culpability lies squarely with the Dominant.  if the submissive or slave does as her Master wishes, against her better judgement and is made miserable, the culpability still remains with the Dominant, he or she should not have pushed it.  it is an abuse of trust in someone who in all other ways gives themselves unconditionally to the role of pleasing their Dominant and was simply attempting to remain true to themselves and uphold their end of the bargain.

As I said before, if things that were agreed, are being recinded on......then it's a sad realisation that she cannot actually trust him. It's not a good situation and dare I say it?....More talking is required......not blindly following someone you know that you have lost trust in. There's not a lot of point upholding a commitment or agreement that the other party isn't adhering to..unless there is full and frank discussion to get things back on track.

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ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut

Yanno sometimes it seems to me that we spend so much time concentrating on who's to blame, who's responsible, who's culpable that we spend too little time dealing with the actual issue.

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In many ways that's true...but if you have one person who claims no fault/responsibility/culpability/whatever you want to call it for their part in an issue, then it is unlikely to get resolved

Very true. For me in that scenario it would be time to walk away, i don't want to be around someone who cannot take responsibility for their own actions. Simple

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ORIGINAL: agirl

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ORIGINAL: InTonguesslave

In most relationships of length there's an investment of emotion and commitment ....( I'll leave aside the 'submissive to my core' bit as it get used too often as an excuse not to deal with unpleasant conversations and situations) ....it's still vital to open your mouth and say stuff. let's not make it about D/s.... people do the same thing in every type of relationship. (quote agirl)
 
yes, i agree, but there is a difference in D/s Ms relationships depending on the depth of submission involved.

You might have to explain that to me. I may well be missing your point....What levels of submission are there?
 
ok, i have something blogged that will do this far better than i could.  i guess ill post it here for convenience its an interesting read anyway.


you can go from mainstream relationships where everything should be on the table because thats their dynamic, to one of absolute TPE where there is no discussion on things or if there is the final decision will always rest with the Dominant anyway.

That doesn't render informing your dom a waste of time. If he's to make decent informed decisions ...he needs to be informed.
 
yes, of course, but as i say somewhere here, informed doesnt always mean that the required action will be taken off the agenda.


again you can ask to discuss something until youre blue in the face but it makes not a jot of difference if the Dominant in question is hell bent on this thing happening.  maybe not today or tomorrow but at some point in the future.

If it's something she's agreed to *sometime in the future* I see no problem with this. Informing him on your feelings is still important.
 
no, i think what i said or meant to say is that things can be added to the agenda as you go.  the submissive may well offer an objection or a reluctance or a downright refusal to something that was not mentioned at the begining of the relationship or was and the submissive put it as a hard limit.  if the dominant said 'ok' then the submissive would have the right to assume the issue would not be brought up again.  therefore she has already informed him of her feelings.


thats when culpability starts to get iffy in D/s or Ms relationships where the level of submission is far deeper than a more lighter, looser arrangement between Dominant and sub.

Are you referring to the type of commitment between BOTH?
 
yes, there are levels of submission and levels of dominance.


with absolute respect, you can scorn the 'submissive to the core' comment, but for some that is how it is and they take their submission to their Dominant extremely seriously, it isnt a copout atall, it is how it is and how they feel.  to step out of the loop and question or try to reverse a decision is anathama, it is taking control they do not want to take, it is, dare i say, tantamount to topping from the bottom for many.

I didn't scorn it ...I left it out for the reasons I mentioned. I was clear in my sentence why.

Taking your commitment seriously, includes giving your dom, the person who has the responsibility for making good decisions ........all and any information he needs to make them..not using it as an excuse to NOT do so. It has nothing to do with topping from the bottom and a lot to do with being a responsible part of the relationship. Informing him of your feelings isn't taking control in any way, it's aiding HIM to do his job well.
 
absolutely, but situations arise when the dominant may well want to introduce something new that the submissive does not want.  informing him of the fact is all well and good and im sure most submissives would have no hesitation in doing so. the question is whether or not the dynamic allows for the submissive to have that much sway.


therefore, for a Dominant to change the agenda to such an extent that the submissive or slave is put in a difficult position the culpability lies squarely with the Dominant.  if the submissive or slave does as her Master wishes, against her better judgement and is made miserable, the culpability still remains with the Dominant, he or she should not have pushed it.  it is an abuse of trust in someone who in all other ways gives themselves unconditionally to the role of pleasing their Dominant and was simply attempting to remain true to themselves and uphold their end of the bargain.

As I said before, if things that were agreed, are being recinded on......then it's a sad realisation that she cannot actually trust him. It's not a good situation and dare I say it?....More talking is required......not blindly following someone you know that you have lost trust in. There's not a lot of point upholding a commitment or agreement that the other party isn't adhering to..unless there is full and frank discussion to get things back on track.
 
i agree

agirl