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Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 9:43:37 AM   
QuixoticErrant


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I have a friend who is a submissive. She has a Dominant who she is very attached to. He has been speaking of getting married.

The catch is that he is of a certain culture and faith and very proud of it, while she is of another culture and faith and very proud of it. He is putting pressure on her to convert. Even in the vanilla world, this would be a huge issue.

Now before anyone assumes that there is no issue because lots of people "work these things out," I would point out that while that is true, lots of people *don't* work these things out. Many times, it is simply too much to ask. In the cases where it does work out, one, or both of the partners was never that attached to their faith or heritage to begin with *and* they are both comfortable with some level of involvement in each other's respective faiths. Usually one partner cares about it more than the other, and the other partner goes along, because they really are comfortable with the other faith.

She has confided in me that she doesn't believe in his faith at all and that the thought of being actively involved in it makes her feel ill. The thought of her potential children being raised in it "gives her chills" and his faith has part of the deal a vow that the kids will be raised in it. He considers her faith to be "outside of God." To be fair, I don't know him, so I am only going by what she has told me. Let's assume she is not lying.

They both care a lot. He never had any doubts. She, when now faced with the realities of it, is beginning to realize that if she were to give up her faith it will kill her. This is her perception of herself. It is something core to how she sees herself as a person.

Now, I'm not judging either of them for this impasse. It is no-one's fault. It just is. The context in terms of kink though adds an extra dimension to the issue. She is used to submitting to his desires and she cares about him. He will try to force the issue. He does not want to loose her and he could not see marrying her unchanged. He can not see any other way, and in the end, possibly even thinks he is "making her better." He is too caught up in his own needs to see just how much this will destroy her - and her relationship with her family.

This is where I want to comment about boundaries. There is a difference between the world of BDSM and the world of things that need to be soberly considered outside of BDSM. My two cents here is that no-one under any context should attempt to change the core person of their lover. This is a dangerous enough trap in the vanilla world and I can not count the number of failed relationships I have seen where one partner demanded to "change" something fundamental in the other partner. It is a seductive enough trap as it is. Everyone wants their partner to be "perfect" for them. In BDSM though, the Dominant is used to getting his way. The submissive is used to surrendering to it.

The trap is even more easily walked into now.

This is one case where the submissive *must* be able to come forward and speak her mind. This is one case where the Dominant *must* be able to hear it. Some boundaries, if pushed, can only lead to heartbreak.

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 9:50:34 AM   
AngelGeena


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Status: offline 		I believe a person should never be pressured to change something that is so much a part of themselves.  I talked with someone on here for a bit, and we still talk.  However, we chose not to pursue anything because of this exact same reason and have mutual respect for the other and their beliefs. 

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 9:54:34 AM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		You have made generalisations that are not true.  Not everyone wants the perfect person for them.  I am one of those people.  Perfection is over rated and an unrealistic expectation.  That submission means stupid?  That is basically the premise of this.  If your friend is too naive to see beyond BDSM then that isn't BDSM's fault.  That doesn't make BDSM a trap.  It simply makes her a construct of her own fantasy.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 9:57:25 AM   
QuixoticErrant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

You have made generalisations that are not true.  Not everyone wants the perfect person for them.  I am one of those people.  Perfection is over rated and an unrealistic expectation.  That submission means stupid?  That is basically the premise of this.  If your friend is too naive to see beyond BDSM then that isn't BDSM's fault.  That doesn't make BDSM a trap.  It simply makes her a construct of her own fantasy.
 
the.dark.


No. There really is no reason to be a troll. She is not stupid. She is conflicted, and understandably so. This situation occurs enough in the vanilla world too. I am saying that the BDSM aspect can make it even more difficult.

< Message edited by QuixoticErrant -- 4/27/2009 10:03:37 AM >

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 10:02:35 AM   
GreedyTop


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Status: offline 		why cant they just agree to each have their own spiritual beliefs, expose any potential children to them both, and let the kids decide?

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 10:06:54 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

You have made generalisations that are not true.  Not everyone wants the perfect person for them.  I am one of those people.  Perfection is over rated and an unrealistic expectation.  That submission means stupid?  That is basically the premise of this.  If your friend is too naive to see beyond BDSM then that isn't BDSM's fault.  That doesn't make BDSM a trap.  It simply makes her a construct of her own fantasy.
 
the.dark.


No. There really is no reason to be a troll. She is not stupid, and this situation occurs enough in the vanilla world too. I am saying that the BDSM aspect can make it even more difficult.

 
How very grown up to discuss by name calling.  But I will ignore your comment, because you are obviously upset for your friend.
 
If she has confided in you, then she already knows the issue.  That isn't a bdsm one.  BDSM isn't some magical thing you can place blame on - that is just an easy excuse.  She needs to step up and take the responsibility for her actions and decisions, not - as you have - blame the fact that because she is an s-type that she loses her common sense of self worth.
 
Regardless of all this, if she is coming to you, rather than her Master or as well as her Master, then the relationship is in an unhealthy place anyway.  Can you not see the irony in all this?  You are blaming BDSM, yet perpetuating her indecision by not even focusing on the fact that she is disrespecting her Master by coming to you when things aren't going her way?  So in one breath, you are stating that BDSM makes it more difficult - yet it is obviously not that difficult if shes coming to an external 'force' to confide in.
 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 4/27/2009 10:07:56 AM >

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 10:08:59 AM   
QuixoticErrant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

why cant they just agree to each have their own spiritual beliefs, expose any potential children to them both, and let the kids decide?


1. For that to happen, she first needs to make a stand.

2. With the religion in question, she would have to vow to raise the kids in that religion.

3. In other circumstances, maybe they could agree to that. . Some people make that work but, that is a tightrope that sounds really good in theory and that many find very, very difficult to actually walk. For it to work, both parties must be actually ok with the idea that their kids might choose the other way. That is easy to say, but I have seen many cases where hearts get broken after it was said, but not really appreciated as a potential reality.

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 10:10:06 AM   
QuixoticErrant


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Status: offline 		I am not blaming BDSM. I am saying it adds another level of complication. OK? And another thing, she is not disrespecting anyone by discussing how she feels. This isn't some small thing that she just "isn't getting her way with."

< Message edited by QuixoticErrant -- 4/27/2009 10:12:23 AM >

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 10:11:35 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

why cant they just agree to each have their own spiritual beliefs, expose any potential children to them both, and let the kids decide?


If only, GT.  However there are some very strict religious beliefs which will not tolerate each other, or even certain specific types of religion.  Some people truely do believe in only one true way, which is cool for them, but not so cool for those around them.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 10:12:59 AM   
breatheasone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

why cant they just agree to each have their own spiritual beliefs, expose any potential children to them both, and let the kids decide?

Thats an excellent thought GT, but some cultures and belief systems simply find that an unacceptable option.


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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 10:14:57 AM   
GreedyTop


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From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		fair enough, gorgeous...

but I'm the type that would say... screw the outside world.  I love this man, he loves me.  We will make our own decisions.

Granted, I do not follow ANY organized religion, so I cant relate to those that are hindered by such an attitude.


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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 10:15:38 AM   
ErikaTate1


Posts: 23
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Status: offline 		Submissives have choices.... and now she has to make hers.

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 10:16:40 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant

I am not blaming BDSM. I am saying it adds another level of complication. OK?


It is only another complication if one wants to make it so.  I don't desire to be picky, but the religious aspect you have brought up in the OP is minor compared to her inability to communicate to the person she calls her dominant.  If she has brought this to him and he has disregarded her concerns and this is as big an issue as you have made it out to be, she has come to you.  Do you see that totally negates your point about BDSM being an added complication?
 
the.dark.

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 10:21:22 AM   
QuixoticErrant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant

I am not blaming BDSM. I am saying it adds another level of complication. OK?


It is only another complication if one wants to make it so.  I don't desire to be picky, but the religious aspect you have brought up in the OP is minor compared to her inability to communicate to the person she calls her dominant.  If she has brought this to him and he has disregarded her concerns and this is as big an issue as you have made it out to be, she has come to you.  Do you see that totally negates your point about BDSM being an added complication?
 
the.dark.


Takes deep breath... This is not some small or insignificant thing. This is not something that she is "not just getting her way with." There is no disrespect in her confiding in someone when she feels she does not yet have the strength to make her own stand. She is not a robot, and her Master should not expect her to be one. You are correct that the relationship has a big issue. Part of what makes it difficult for her to speak out is the issue of long time serving his needs without regard to her own in the context of BDSM.

We can both agree that she needs to be able to bring this out to him. That is my central point.

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 10:28:52 AM   
CatdeMedici


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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant

I am not blaming BDSM. I am saying it adds another level of complication. OK?


I am going to dance on the saber here----yes for SOME it does add a level of complexity that many of us can't empathize with. I have a submissive friend who for 3 years twisted herself 7 ways to Sunday over some of these every issues, only to realize she had to stand on her values and beliefs and she walked away.
 
It appears he thinks by being the Dominant, he can domineer his way to get her acquiescence--her needs, wants, desires around this extend much deeper --well beyond  any D/s---my question now as I dance on the other side--did she not think it might come to this? Did she not listen to that nagging voice in the seconds between the darkness and the dawn that said, "what if?" and I am not talking Master sub, I am talking two people who have or are developing some kind of emotional attachment that could lead to the vanilla institution of marriage. And were there not signs about other things that may have given a clue?  If she is talking to you, I am going to bet its because on certain things, he refuses to listen.
 
IMHO a Dominant does not have the right to demand someone give up core values for the sake of D/s, a Dominant needs to understand the submissive, their drivers and be big enough to deal with them OR both parties need to part ways.
 
Conversely, submission does not equate to asphalt, at the end of the day, there is a person in there with wants, need, desires, beliefs and they have to do one of two things: acquiesce or stand their ground. No one here can tell her which way is right, only she knows.

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 10:35:39 AM   
TaoWoman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant



This is where I want to comment about boundaries. There is a difference between the world of BDSM and the world of things that need to be soberly considered outside of BDSM. My two cents here is that no-one under any context should attempt to change the core person of their lover. This is a dangerous enough trap in the vanilla world and I can not count the number of failed relationships I have seen where one partner demanded to "change" something fundamental in the other partner. It is a seductive enough trap as it is. Everyone wants their partner to be "perfect" for them. In BDSM though, the Dominant is used to getting his way. The submissive is used to surrendering to it.





Only speaking from personal experience, this indeed can occur and the D/s dynamic facilitates it. Intelligent and strong women can be reduced to compromising their core selves by one of the many masks of manipulative domination~


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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 10:37:45 AM   
QuixoticErrant


Posts: 260
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Status: offline 		I am so glad that you wrote that.

I agree with everything you have said.

It is very easy for people to simply think of how happy they are now and not look at potential consequences in the future. It is all too common a mistake. I know I have made it myself.

The way that it is additionally complicated for her by BDSM now, is that she feels disagreeing with him is a betrayal of his mastery. She has to wrestle with that in addition to wrestling with her feelings for him. This is a tough spot for her. She feels a little trapped and she does not know what to do. I want to encourage her that the only way out is through. She has to be able to say what she feels on this matter clearly, and then perhaps they can work something out. She also does not want to say this because she is smart enough to know that it is unlikely that a compromise could be reached. That part is not BDSM, that is already hard enough without her feeling that she can not speak out already.

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 10:38:05 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		So what is your central post about?  Is it about how BDSM adds more difficulty to a relationship, or that she needs to communicate to him.  Because your changing it.
 
I get by the way you are typing that you are frustrated that I do not agree with your post or I am attempting to troll.  I am not from my viewpoint, what I am suggesting is that your inital posts says 'BDSM can be a trap'.  This extended to 'BDSM is an added complication'.  That is negated by her coming to you.
 
Of course a s-type can confide in another about her relationship - IF the man whom she calls Master/dominant whatever has permitted it.  It's not your decision to make that she can, nor mine.  But his.  If he has allowed this, cool.  But he has made his postion clear to her.  Just because she is a s-type does not mean she has to submit to it.   She just has to say, she messed up, realises she cannot do this and leaves.  It's hard, heartbreaking probably, but it is a beautiful learning curve she can go through which can only make her stronger.
If he has not permitted his private life to be discussed, then BDSM is not the issue as you stated. You seem to be having difficulty understanding that.
 
If she feels he is wrong and is going to others to confide and tell them that, that is a disrespect.  Doesn't matter if shes submissive or even if she was a dominant.  Shes a person, talking negatively about another to someone else.
 
But if shes confiding in you, BDSM isn't such a big issue or conflict, is it?  A big concern for me, would be the control you have over her and the authority she gives you in this.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 10:39:14 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant

The trap is even more easily walked into now.

This is one case where the submissive *must* be able to come forward and speak her mind. This is one case where the Dominant *must* be able to hear it. Some boundaries, if pushed, can only lead to heartbreak.


Religion and ‘obligation to serve’ aside, it seems to me, your friend is showing signs of being in a relationship that has served as a disablement. It implies she was in a trap, before she entered the relationship, and it is her own thinking that causes it.

Been there, done that…

Kim


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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 10:46:39 AM   
QuixoticErrant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

So what is your central post about?  Is it about how BDSM adds more difficulty to a relationship, or that she needs to communicate to him.  Because your changing it.
 
I get by the way you are typing that you are frustrated that I do not agree with your post or I am attempting to troll.  I am not from my viewpoint, what I am suggesting is that your inital posts says 'BDSM can be a trap'.  This extended to 'BDSM is an added complication'.  That is negated by her coming to you.
 
Of course a s-type can confide in another about her relationship - IF the man whom she calls Master/dominant whatever has permitted it.  It's not your decision to make that she can, nor mine.  But his.  If he has allowed this, cool.  But he has made his postion clear to her.  Just because she is a s-type does not mean she has to submit to it.   She just has to say, she messed up, realises she cannot do this and leaves.  It's hard, heartbreaking probably, but it is a beautiful learning curve she can go through which can only make her stronger.
If he has not permitted his private life to be discussed, then BDSM is not the issue as you stated. You seem to be having difficulty understanding that.
 
If she feels he is wrong and is going to others to confide and tell them that, that is a disrespect.  Doesn't matter if shes submissive or even if she was a dominant.  Shes a person, talking negatively about another to someone else.
 
But if shes confiding in you, BDSM isn't such a big issue or conflict, is it?  A big concern for me, would be the control you have over her and the authority she gives you in this.
 
the.dark.


Now I get where you are coming from. Apparently you believe that with "proper BDSM" she would not speak to her friends about her relationship. I suppose that is one true way... Clearly that is the contradiction you see. If that is how you see it, I am not going to argue with your way of doing things. However, many masters, myself included, expect that their submissives are still going to act like normal people - and that means that they will occasionally talk to their friends - even about me.

As to any control I have over her, I am not trying to think for her at all. In fact, I have been trying to encourage her to think for herself and speak for herself. This is what people who care about each other do.

< Message edited by QuixoticErrant -- 4/27/2009 10:54:33 AM >

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