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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/28/2009 7:47:44 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Hard time in a federal penitentiary is hardly coffee and donuts servant...no one is advocating coddling these pirates...on the other hand your shoot on sight mentality is not helpful when one is trying to export and extol our way of life.Not to east to trumpet a society based on the "rule of law" when you decide to disregard it at every opportunity.

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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/28/2009 8:00:19 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		There is no law in Somalia.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/28/2009 8:05:36 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Pirates,much like the one recently captured(you know the one you keep bemoaning we didn't shoot) might have to settle for being tried in the courts of the offended/arresting country....works for me.Citing a lack of Somali courts as justification for out and out executions is weak and once again contrary behavior for a country that states it beleives in the rule of law.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/28/2009 8:18:51 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		When the Navy seals killed the terrorists, that wasn't and execution, it was self defence for an innocent hostage.

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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/28/2009 8:23:21 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		It is the difference between being a country of ideals that we hold high, and ends justify the means. By allowing due process you insure that who you are punishing is actually guilty. If you have no due process, then there is no point in being a society of laws.

Your example of the Libyan strike has no relevance, as we are not dealing with the same kind of person.

If you advocate no due process for some moral reason of yours, then all those Americans that have been beheaded are justified by the moral reason of those that did that. Do you not see the hypocricy you are showing, and that to do as other do only validates their actions?


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The Somalia pirates don't really seem to care who they kidnap and terrorize. I don't see them playing by any set of rules. Why should any one else who is trying to put an end to this play by rules. Remember when Libya was giving the United States all kinds of problems? Reagan ended it in one night when a couple of fighter jets bombed his house. We didn't hear from him in over 20 years.


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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/28/2009 9:02:10 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Lamsbitch and I were talking about this just today.

Arresting them and trying them in court like the petty criminals they are is exactly the right approach.  No pirate wants to spend the rest of his days in prison till he croaks while straining on the shitcan.  They want to go out in a blaze of glory.  Shooting them is exactly what they want us to do.  "We are hate American!"

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

We should be shooting them, not arresting them if we and other countries were serious about ending all of this..

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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/28/2009 9:08:42 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Well its about time some help showed up...thanks guys....

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/29/2009 8:06:02 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		In the old days, pirates were often tried at sea.  They were often executed at sea.  I have no problem with this if they are caught in the act.  If they try to take a ship, they should be shot dead and left to feed the sharks.  There is no "blaze of glory" in that, only death.  Should they be caught with evidence that they are getting ready to commit piracy, such as weapons and shipping schedule, then they get to go to trial and sit in the dirtiest, filthiest prison we can find in the world. 
I think they need to be treated like animals because that is what they are.

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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/29/2009 8:09:42 AM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

When the Navy seals killed the terrorists, that wasn't and execution, it was self defence for an innocent hostage.


....no-one is arguing against that. Some are arguing against killing as pre-emptive self defence.

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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/29/2009 8:19:16 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Well its about time some help showed up...thanks guys....


I will agree with your position as long as you don't try to tell me that deadly force is not warranted by ship crews and security forces, protecting themselves. Or Naval forces confronting suspected pirates that refuse to submit for interrogation and inspection.

Do you think deadly force is warranted in a rescue mission to release kidnapped prisoners?

Butch

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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/29/2009 8:56:32 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Of course I do Butch...and I find it hard to beleive that any post of mine could be misconstrued or is in any way ambiguous on this matter.Using deadly force to defend ones self is not the same as summary executions...which some posters seem to be championing.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/29/2009 9:05:53 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Just wanted to be sure of your stance...I do agree with you...there is no difference from capturing a home invader in St Louis and a pirate at sea...But once I say surrender and they say screw you kid gloves are off.

Butch

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/29/2009 11:10:34 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Hard time in a federal penitentiary is hardly coffee and donuts servant...no one is advocating coddling these pirates...on the other hand your shoot on sight mentality is not helpful when one is trying to export and extol our way of life.Not to east to trumpet a society based on the "rule of law" when you decide to disregard it at every opportunity.


Mike, "export and extol our way of life?" "Trumpet a society?"
I don't recall those things being a part of the official policy of our govt. Most of the world hates us anyway, why would we want to "export our way of life" to them?

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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/29/2009 2:32:41 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Hard time in a federal penitentiary is hardly coffee and donuts servant...no one is advocating coddling these pirates...on the other hand your shoot on sight mentality is not helpful when one is trying to export and extol our way of life.Not to east to trumpet a society based on the "rule of law" when you decide to disregard it at every opportunity.


Mike, "export and extol our way of life?" "Trumpet a society?"
I don't recall those things being a part of the official policy of our govt. Most of the world hates us anyway, why would we want to "export our way of life" to them?
Popeye please explain to me how living up to our own standards of justice is a case of "export and extol our way of life"
Is it your contention that we obey a system of laws and a code of conduct...only when dealing amongst ourselves.
That would seem to suggest that we are free to do as we please once we take our act abroad....
Would this belief extend to holidays in Thailand,perhaps the rental of ums for sexual pleasure....as long as it is done abroad.


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/29/2009 4:39:16 PM   
blacksword404


Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Popeye please explain to me how living up to our own standards of justice is a case of "export and extol our way of life"
Is it your contention that we obey a system of laws and a code of conduct...only when dealing amongst ourselves.
That would seem to suggest that we are free to do as we please once we take our act abroad....
Would this belief extend to holidays in Thailand,perhaps the rental of ums for sexual pleasure....as long as it is done abroad.



It has always been my understanding that a person fell under the law of whatever jurisdiction they were in. In the case of a country, that countries law would have to be obeyed. In the case of International waters, Whose laws take precedent in a case like this? As much as I would like to see some dead pirates, we are a nation of laws. We follow our laws not for the sake of the pirates but for our own. Of course if they attempt to board then shoot them and give them a water burial. Capture in the case of suspected piracy but if they try to carry it out, well...

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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/29/2009 4:48:03 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Remember when Libya was giving the United States all kinds of problems? Reagan ended it in one night when a couple of fighter jets bombed his house. We didn't hear from him in over 20 years.


Youre forgetting Lockerbie and Pan-Am flight 73 ( I think thats the number ) Both in retaliation for the above. Kind of makes all the " didnt hear from him for 20 years " nonsense redundant, wouldnt you say ?

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/29/2009 4:58:36 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Hard time in a federal penitentiary is hardly coffee and donuts servant...no one is advocating coddling these pirates...on the other hand your shoot on sight mentality is not helpful when one is trying to export and extol our way of life.Not to east to trumpet a society based on the "rule of law" when you decide to disregard it at every opportunity.


Mike, "export and extol our way of life?" "Trumpet a society?"
I don't recall those things being a part of the official policy of our govt. Most of the world hates us anyway, why would we want to "export our way of life" to them?
Popeye please explain to me how living up to our own standards of justice is a case of "export and extol our way of life"
Is it your contention that we obey a system of laws and a code of conduct...only when dealing amongst ourselves.
That would seem to suggest that we are free to do as we please once we take our act abroad....
Would this belief extend to holidays in Thailand,perhaps the rental of ums for sexual pleasure....as long as it is done abroad.



Hey Mike,....whatever floats your boat man.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/29/2009 5:05:59 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Not my boat Popeye,I actually cling to my own standard of behavior,one that does not deviate depending upon which land mass,or rocking boat deck my feet happen to be planted on.It is simpler that way...I find it easier than fashioning a set of values to suit a given situation......One value set,for all situations.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/29/2009 5:09:13 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Not my boat Popeye,I actually cling to my own standard of behavior,one that does not deviate depending upon which land mass,or rocking boat deck my feet happen to be planted on.It is simpler that way...I find it easier than fashioning a set of values to suit a given situation......One value set,for all situations.


Mike, well what do you do when you go to "Thailand?"

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/29/2009 5:13:33 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		You would think that the member nations participating in policing the Somali coast would come up with an agreement allowing any nation to apprehend pirates regardless of the nationality of the attacked ship.

Then have a procedure for, who, where and how to apply the law.

It is idiotic to hunt down and release pirates because of the nationality of the attacked ship...maybe get a bunch together then offer a trade for hostages.

Butch

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Profile   Post #: 40
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