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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/29/2009 6:25:29 PM

MstrTiger

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I am sure they see death as an occupational hazard, killing them will not do much to prevent it other than making the nation that does go off start killing them look like they are less humane and have a lesser regard for human rights than the Russians do, I don’t think that would be a very good position to be in.

I have no problem with ships defending themselves with deadly force though to actively go out and start killing people randomly would be a very stupid and deeply immoral thing to do. Particularly when you consider the American militaries success rate when it comes to these things, I realise there is no chance that they will blow up yet another wedding and less chance that they will blow up any allied tanks given that it is in the middle of the sea though I still would factor in a high possibility of the operation going totally wrong.

They used to slowly crush people to death or burn them alive in the middle ages, did it stop crime, no it did not! You cant end crime by killing people, you can only stop it by resolving its causes. I would say that one of the main problems is that a lot of the ships do not have any basic defence capability, the problem would soon be resolved if the merchant ships are properly escorted or are given the ability to defend themselves.

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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/29/2009 7:40:27 PM

OrionTheWolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrTiger

I am sure they see death as an occupational hazard, killing them will not do much to prevent it other than making the nation that does go off start killing them look like they are less humane and have a lesser regard for human rights than the Russians do, I don’t think that would be a very good position to be in.

Death is not a deterent, it is a punishment. It prevents a criminal from doing the same act again. Now the question is, does piracy deserve death as a punishment. I say it does, as it is one of the most lawless things you can do that interupts a lawful society.

quote:

I have no problem with ships defending themselves with deadly force though to actively go out and start killing people randomly would be a very stupid and deeply immoral thing to do. Particularly when you consider the American militaries success rate when it comes to these things, I realise there is no chance that they will blow up yet another wedding and less chance that they will blow up any allied tanks given that it is in the middle of the sea though I still would factor in a high possibility of the operation going totally wrong.

Not very many have advocated that. Due process should be used. Now another question is which laws to use.

quote:

They used to slowly crush people to death or burn them alive in the middle ages, did it stop crime, no it did not! You cant end crime by killing people, you can only stop it by resolving its causes. I would say that one of the main problems is that a lot of the ships do not have any basic defence capability, the problem would soon be resolved if the merchant ships are properly escorted or are given the ability to defend themselves.

Death is an absolute deterent for the criminal receiving the punishment. In fact it was the original deterent for these particular pirates. If you did some research you would find out they started by attacking other fishing vessels that were poaching in their waters. When those vessels started stocking automatic weapons, they went after softer targets.

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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/29/2009 8:16:36 PM

Louve00

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Contrary to my initially reaction of "kill em all on site", yesterday...after thinking more about it I agree with you Orion, that due process should be used. Maby, being international process, until a set International law could be established, each country can execute their due process. Ours being what it is (which is build back up what we've slowly lost through bad decisions), and stick to our standards and our due process. Other countries executing theirs. Whatever they may be. If the Russians want to go around confiscating all pirates before they attack us and we have to spend money on due process...so be it.

Another day of thought might change that point of view, but thats what it is, for now lol

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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/30/2009 5:05:25 AM

Irishknight

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I don't think any of us are suggesting going out and attacking every ship ust in case they are pirates. I know I am not. I do believe that anyone caught in the act of piracy should be immeiately executed or, at best, dropped off to swim home from 200 miles away from shore.
As for death not stopping crime, show me a case of anyone who continued to commit crimes after they died. Faking your death doesn't count. Show me one dead criminal or crime boss who continues committing crimes. If we execute every pirate, we will eventually run out of pirates. Then the problem is solved.

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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/30/2009 8:15:01 AM

MstrTiger

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Can show us one occasion when killing someone has stopped others from committing the same crime? do you think it is possible or feasible to kill everyone in the world who is a pirate or who has been a pirate or who might think about becoming a pirate in the future?

There is also still the question of legality, you might think it is acceptable for your government to go around murdering the citizens of other countries without so much as a trial though generally the international community looks down on things like that.

Do you think trials are just an unnecessary and trivial waste of peoples time? Do you think it would be good for the USA to sink even further below most banana republics when it comes to taking into account that fundamental rule of law? Even the most backward and badly run countries have the decency to at least put on a show trial before they murder someone or imprison them for years on end.

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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/30/2009 8:44:59 AM

kdsub

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There is no need for any more killing of anyone... There is one absolute solution that will work like none other.....DO NOT PAY RANSOM under any circumstance. If they can't make money they will not take the chance of getting killed.

If they take hostages and refuse to release them then military action should be used. It will only need to be used once because there will be no profit in taking more hostages.

I do believe in helping my fellow man but not as blackmail to stop piracy...If they want help as a nation then THEY need to stop the piracy first before any aid. People have responsibilities to take control of their own destiny...If they don't have the backbone they can't have any of mine.

Butch

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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/30/2009 1:23:23 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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Funny, you people wanting to be "liked" by people in third and fourth world countries.
They don't even have t.v.s.
A ship is also the *home* to it's crew.They *live* aboard the ship for months at a time. If someone attacks that ship they are also attacking those Sailor's home and they have every right to defend themselves!
And, for every pirate you kill that's one less to kill later.
And as for those countries like Somalia I don't want to be "friends" with them, feed them,"give" them anything or anything else.

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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 4/30/2009 6:51:20 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Pirates,much like the one recently captured(you know the one you keep bemoaning we didn't shoot) might have to settle for being tried in the courts of the offended/arresting country....works for me.Citing a lack of Somali courts as justification for out and out executions is weak and once again contrary behavior for a country that states it beleives in the rule of law.

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RE: Russians capture Somalia Pirates - 5/1/2009 5:02:16 AM

Irishknight

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrTiger

Can show us one occasion when killing someone has stopped others from committing the same crime? do you think it is possible or feasible to kill everyone in the world who is a pirate or who has been a pirate or who might think about becoming a pirate in the future?

There is also still the question of legality, you might think it is acceptable for your government to go around murdering the citizens of other countries without so much as a trial though generally the international community looks down on things like that.

Do you think trials are just an unnecessary and trivial waste of peoples time? Do you think it would be good for the USA to sink even further below most banana republics when it comes to taking into account that fundamental rule of law? Even the most backward and badly run countries have the decency to at least put on a show trial before they murder someone or imprison them for years on end.

I cannot show you a single case of how giving one person medicine cured another either so by your logic, I should not treat the sick people in the world. The cure or punishment is for the one who did the crime. It is not and never will be about stopping anyone else. I don't put down a vicious dog in hopes that OTHER animals will learn from it. I do it to protect humans from THAT vicious dog.

In an earlier post I pointed out that maritime law had provisions for trials at sea for centuries and it worked fine. Let there be a trial. As for it being murder, I guess the pirates lives are worth more than everyone else's because that is exactly what you are implying. WE cannot try and execute them at sea when they are captured at sea but THEY can capture and kill at will.

I think the waste of time is people whining about us not being too mean to murderers and animals who will keep killing until stopped. I suppose that you have experienced all of these banana republic legal systems you say we are sinking below? I've known people who were in those so called more decent countries' prisons. There are no rights in the prisons of those countries. Abuse? It's a way of life. Trials? You can hope. Imprisoned, tortured and beaten for years on end with less than a mockery of a trial? It happens every day all over the world. There is no country so high and mighty that it doesn't happen.

These pirates and others like them have been taught by certain segments of our society that we are a paper tiger. They need to know that if they come after an American target, the world as they know it just ended.

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