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Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 4:58:23 PM   
PolyAna


Posts: 9
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		During a discussion with a friend about safe words she said several things which alarmed me. She states that she does not need a safe word because shes not enough of a pain slut to need one, she's not even a masso.
She thinks that her Sir should accept all the responsibility and know when to stop play by reading her. She cannot comprehend that it is a joint responsibility and that by having a safe word which her sir wishes her to have, it is just that extra bit of safety. The relationship is quite new, they have only played together about three or four times.
She feels that by accepting use of a safe word she is giving her Sir free licence to 'thrash' her and not build up her pain slut training slowly. She is assuming he will ignore the knowledge of her pain limits at present and just go hell for leather.
She also feels that if she accepts having a safe word it automatically equates to her Sir not bothering to monitor her or learn to read her etc.
 
Now personally i'm not a safe word girl but not for any of the reasons above. I find the reasons above kind of worrying.
 
Any thoughts?
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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 5:08:49 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		What informs her beliefs that this is how he will manage the use of her safeword?  I don't understand the logic here.  I think when she is in deeper she may soon find out what that little word is really all about.  Sure he can monitor her and read her reactions, but there can be more going on and safewords aren't just about physical safety or pain tolerance.  They are for situations that are mentally or emotionally beyond her tolerance as well.

I will say that there is clearly a lack of appropriate trust and have to wonder why they are playing at this point at all.  I also am not huge on safewords, but if one is given to me to use, then I am appreciative and expect that means it will be respected and is an addendum to the protections the dominant is already providing.  Will he go harder with safewords in place?  Perhaps, but hopefully not at the expense of protecting the submissive.  I should think safewords are a good tool for learning to gauge a new partner rather than a stumbling block to it.

All in all, I think either her trust in her partner is not what it needs to be and they need to talk at length or her understanding of safewords is inaccurate at best.  Could be both.  I think a good search of the term and some education as well as a talk with her partner would go a long way.

lovingpet

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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 5:12:20 PM   
PolyAna


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Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

What informs her beliefs that this is how he will manage the use of her safeword?

Nothing, it is purely a preconception.
 
quote:

All in all, I think either her trust in her partner is not what it needs to be and they need to talk at length or her understanding of safewords is inaccurate at best. 

Agreed.


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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 5:12:28 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		Are they enjoying each other and not ending up in the hospital?  If so, it ain't broke, and there's no need to "fix" it.

This isn't an abstract philosophical question.  You can't assess it outside the health of their dynamic.  If things are healthy, then who cares if she has some ideas that strike you as wacky.


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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 5:14:43 PM   
PolyAna


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quote:

Are they enjoying each other and not ending up in the hospital?  If so, it ain't broke, and there's no need to "fix" it.


So it only becomes a problem when something gets broken. What about prevention?

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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 5:17:49 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		Please explain the difference between "prevention" and "busybody."

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 5:21:17 PM   
PolyAna


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Joined: 4/16/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Please explain the difference between "prevention" and "busybody."


Prevention is caring enough about your friend to be concerned when they appear to be doing things for the wrong reasons and you try to stop that or get a perspective from others who are not as close to the situation.
Being a busy body is interfering in someone elses life just because you can and not out of caring about them.
Care to answer my question now?

Edited to add:- so as long as she doesn't end up in hospital its fine? Right i see. what about emotional damage? Does she need to end up in a loony bin for that to be damage?

< Message edited by PolyAna -- 5/8/2009 5:27:37 PM >

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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 5:34:44 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		She doesn't use safewords; you don't use safewords.  She trusts her sexual partner, and you have mentioned nothing problematic that is actually happening.  You disagree with her reasons, even though you do the same thing.  The phrase "looking for trouble" comes to mind.

Is she happier and more fulfilled than you are?  Serious question.  The proof really is in the pudding.  While some people spend their energy dwelling on the correct motivation for something, others are actually living, doing things, trying their best.  Besides, if she hasn't asked you for help, then she isn't in a mindspace to listen to you "correct" her viewpoint.


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 5:42:38 PM   
PolyAna


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Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

She trusts her sexual partner, and you have mentioned nothing problematic that is actually happening. 


She does not trust him to not thrash her if she allows him to give her a safe word. Where is the trust that he will still only beat her within reason there?
 
quote:

Besides, if she hasn't asked you for help, then she isn't in a mindspace to listen to you "correct" her viewpoint.

She will be reading this thread with as much interest as me.
 
Care to answer my questions yet? 

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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 5:47:33 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		You can't force her to accept a safeword, yes, it might be smarter, but she might have that rare connection... Then again she might not and nothing a bunch of people on a message board could do or say will make her change her mind.

Personally I don't agree with her reasoning (as presented by you, I would prefer it if she would phrase it herself as there is often a lot lost in transmission) but since it is ultimately her own choice, what do you expect us to do?

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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 5:48:55 PM   
nameonhold


Posts: 48
Joined: 6/8/2005
Status: offline 		I'm not sure what the harm is in having a safeword. I appreciate the line of reasoning which suggests that merely having a safeword introduces a measure of control on the part of the submissive, and thereby, makes their submission incomplete.

I sincerely appreciate that line of reasoning. At the same time, I like to think of my own submission as being rather complete. There is also the submissive mindset which refuses to use the safeword even though they have one.

Me, I fall into that camp. Numerous times my Mistress would have to remind me in the middle of a painful scene, "Breathe. Keep breathing." We both learned the hard way once, I refused to safeword, continued to take what she was delivering, was so deep in subspace, I wasn't breathing properly. I passed out. Scared the hell out of her.

Long discussions held after the episode. I refuse to take control by safewording. She does frequently though, remind me to keep breathing.

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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 5:59:12 PM   
lovingpet


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Are they enjoying each other and not ending up in the hospital?  If so, it ain't broke, and there's no need to "fix" it.

This isn't an abstract philosophical question.  You can't assess it outside the health of their dynamic.  If things are healthy, then who cares if she has some ideas that strike you as wacky.



It is the apparent lack of trust that concerns me and points to the possibility of the dynamic as not being quite so healthy.  I can only go by what the poster has stated, however, knowing full well it is second hand information.  It is more than just my notion of what the function and purpose of a safeword is.  It is the communication and trust that I would like to see worked on.  No harm in that.  Everyone can build on those skills.

lovingpet

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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 6:12:02 PM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Are they enjoying each other and not ending up in the hospital?  If so, it ain't broke, and there's no need to "fix" it.

This isn't an abstract philosophical question.  You can't assess it outside the health of their dynamic.  If things are healthy, then who cares if she has some ideas that strike you as wacky.



It is the apparent lack of trust that concerns me and points to the possibility of the dynamic as not being quite so healthy.  I can only go by what the poster has stated, however, knowing full well it is second hand information.  It is more than just my notion of what the function and purpose of a safeword is.  It is the communication and trust that I would like to see worked on.  No harm in that.  Everyone can build on those skills.

lovingpet


I have to side with RedMagic on this one. The thing is being a friend and having concerns for the welfare is good so long as these concerns are well placed. The problem with being a friend is we are still an outsider to the inner dynamics of the other's relationship with a partner and many times how they play and the manner in which they play may not agree with our personal level of acceptance. As for the OP, if they are that concerned all they can do is express their worry and leave it at that. To go any further is overstepping the boundaries of the friendship and coming across as a busybody.


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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 6:20:31 PM   
Joseff


Posts: 505
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline 		A safeword is a usefull tool, especially for beginners or people in new relationships. I have never heard of a case where a safeword has caused a Dom to be more vigorous. I believe the OP is asking us to explain this, in the hope that her friend will read it and be convinced. I have no problem with that. Expound away.

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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 6:37:08 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Are they enjoying each other and not ending up in the hospital?  If so, it ain't broke, and there's no need to "fix" it.

This isn't an abstract philosophical question.  You can't assess it outside the health of their dynamic.  If things are healthy, then who cares if she has some ideas that strike you as wacky.



It is the apparent lack of trust that concerns me and points to the possibility of the dynamic as not being quite so healthy.  I can only go by what the poster has stated, however, knowing full well it is second hand information.  It is more than just my notion of what the function and purpose of a safeword is.  It is the communication and trust that I would like to see worked on.  No harm in that.  Everyone can build on those skills.

lovingpet


I have to side with RedMagic on this one. The thing is being a friend and having concerns for the welfare is good so long as these concerns are well placed. The problem with being a friend is we are still an outsider to the inner dynamics of the other's relationship with a partner and many times how they play and the manner in which they play may not agree with our personal level of acceptance. As for the OP, if they are that concerned all they can do is express their worry and leave it at that. To go any further is overstepping the boundaries of the friendship and coming across as a busybody.



I would agree the OP is painfully close, if not, overstepping bounds as a friend.  It sounds like the friend is supporting the information that the OP is attempting to gather.  I only answered based upon the information presented.  I can guarantee there is bias and causes such leading language to be used in the OP.  Unfortunately, it is all I have to go on.

I can rest assured the inner dynamics of my own relationship would be cause for concern for many, so I understand how very narrowly construed things can become.  Without knowing their personal business, I can't say how the safeword is to function within this particular relationship.  They may be using it in a way that is different from how I have seen it used in the past.  Who know?  Only they do.  My concern is to make sure that both parties are on the same page.  I can't guarantee how that page reads, but I should wouldn't want to find out that they had two different ideas that lead to a tragedy.

Communication for the sake of clarification can only help to build the trust between them.  These  may be fine and healthy, but more of both is always better.  So why not go the extra mile for each other (Dom and sub) and be sure?

lovingpet


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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 6:48:08 PM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		if this submissive isnt a massochist then surely she should be reasonably easy to read.  if she's anything like me, she isnt going to trip out, she isnt going to sink into silence, her responses are going to be more than obvious.

it therefore begs the question of why her Master wishes her to have a safe word. 

if Sir said i was to have a safe word i would have to wonder how much harder he wished to push me and whether i was going to be pushed much harder than he thinks i can cope with. 

does having a safe word give a Dominant the licence to go hell for leather - arguably yes.  is that appropriate with a non-masso who dislikes the safe word option - arguably no.  the problem here is that if the D wants to play harder and the s is refusing a safe word then the D is inadvertently being controlled by the submissive in what he can do with her.  clearly without a safe word he doesnt feel he can push her harder.  so in a way, she might just as well have the safe word and get on with it - if she hates the idea of a safeword because it gives her control, then shes going to hate the idea of denying her D the pleasure of playing with her much more.  you might like trying to pass that convoluted argument past her

the fact that they have only played three or four times means that she might be feeling a bit frisky about the suggestion that the level of play is now going up a notch, sufficient to require a safe word anyway.  for a non-masso thats a bit scary. clinging to the hope that He would train her gently is clearly being challenged, from her pov.  i can see her logic frankly - why a safe word unless he is planning to go up several notches beyond her limits. or in her words, unless he is planning to thrash her.

i think the D and the s need to talk this through together.

< Message edited by lally2 -- 5/8/2009 7:10:07 PM >

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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 7:16:29 PM   
ZenDragoness


Posts: 372
Joined: 1/21/2006
From: Berlin/Germany
Status: offline 		lally2

quote:

i think the D and the s need to talk this through together.


That is the whole answer, that comes to my mind in the described situation. There seems to be
a lot of uncertainies and ideas about the D and his motivations. I would ask him.

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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 7:20:10 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		Even if it was crystal clear before, the OP may have muddied the waters for her with regard to what the two of them agreed all this meant between them.  At the very least, I would think putting these differences to rest and reaffirming their position would be helpful.  Communication.  Can't recommend it enough in ANY situation.

lovingpet

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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 7:32:35 PM   
ZenDragoness


Posts: 372
Joined: 1/21/2006
From: Berlin/Germany
Status: offline 		Yes, that was what i thought too.

And i learned early on that even a good and clear presented account of another relationship is
always coloured with the view of the reporting person, so i refused to give an advice, as long as
i can not speak to the people that are concerned. For me i made it a rule.

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RE: Concern for a friend - 5/8/2009 7:56:36 PM   
SteelofUtah


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Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		To be as honest as I possibly can Polyana, perhaps you are having issue with this because this would not work for you and your friend is not living up to your standards.

Andi got a safe word ONCE. The very first time we played and she used it from that point on she has not had one....... However, No, Stop, "Steel that hurt more than a little" are phrases that will pull the throw and usually end in sore shoulders. Andi will tell you she has NOTHING to worry about, not even from a Steel Warm-Up.

The Point is from what you state she may not need a safe word, thier play may NEVER reach the level necessary to reach harm level, and even if they do..... I hate to say this but it isn't your relationship. Even if one day it does come to serious HARM, all you will be able to do is be there for your friend with a Silent Sentry mode, or try to "Fix" her by telling her what she SHOULD have done. Truth be told we are ALL adults here, some have learned more lessons than others but that does not make it thier job to educate the masses.

I think if you have voiced your concern to your friend then your options are kinda done. Unless you want to be that person who is always telling people how they shoud do this and that. If you wanna be that person...... Go for it.... but get Health Insurance first.

Steel

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