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Physical punishment… how do you see it? - 5/8/2009 11:37:53 PM

Lockit

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A couple of recent threads have made me curious about punishment. A lot of the mail I get is a male submissive/slave who is saying he needs a strict dominant and punishment on a regular basis. Then I read a lot of it in journals or on profiles. Now, I know what a lot of the female submissive/slaves feel on this from the boards and yet I don’t see as much because I don’t have female submissive’s/slave’s emailing me that often.

I have read things some dominant’s have said about punishment as well but don’t recall it being something like some of the male submissive’s/slave’s I have seen.

I am wondering how many feel they need to be punished and if male submissive’s/slave’s see punishment differently or for some reason feel an emotional need for punishment that might be different than a female’s view of things. And if there is an emotional need for punishment, why that is or how it all works.

Are some confusing enjoying spankings or physical acts with punishment or is it actual punishment they seek?

To the dominant’s, how do you feel and do you like to punish your submissive? What is it that you see or how do you view those who wish or need to be punished?

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RE: Physical punishment… how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 12:13:12 AM

Whiplashsmile4

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Lockit, i myself have noticed some differences between male and female submissives when it comes to physical punishment. I almost hate to post because it risks sounding a bit sexist, but it would "appear" that men are more into being subjected to corperal (physical) punishments compared to women. Perhaps it's just a guy thing, something about having their ass kicked for real to help keep them in line.

Again, I hate to post because this risks sounding sexist like. Perhaps it's because men are more prone or used to phyiscally fighting, kicking ass or whatever. You know at an early age Guys have all the WAR and Fighting Toys, while girls get to play with Barbie Dolls and more peaceful toys. So, this might be in part a cultural thing as well.

There appear to be some differences, for whatever reasons.

(in reply to Lockit)

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RE: Physical punishment… how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 1:32:46 AM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
.

Are some confusing enjoying spankings or physical acts with punishment or is it actual punishment they seek?

In my opinion and experience there is, as far as gender differences can go, a gender divide within the 'need' for punishment. But it's a gender divide based on social conformity rather than the male/female brain.
Explanation... here goes.
In society in general the more normal, normative roles, are that females 'take it', are the subservient gender and get rewarded by men for the way they behave. Good wives get taken out to dinner. Bad wives get there credit card priviledges curtailed, disparaging looks across the breakfast table and a spouse who stays out late just 'cos he can.
Whereas men get away with metaphorical murder.
These stereotypical roles go deep very deep.
Although sophisticated society accepts gender transitions, and role reversals, feminism encourages strong women, and stay at home husbands are accepted at the creche, the deep conformity to sicial roles is, well deep. It kind of goes along with other types of fundamentalism.
So how does all of this impact on bdsm? Well as a slave type it feels 'right' that I get rewarded if I am a good girl, and punsihed when I am not. (Actiually that formed a large part of my upbringing when a child anyway). And so I will often make 'slip-ups' both subconsciously and when deviously aware I am doing so in order to get 'punished'. Yes I love the sensation AND the return to a naughty girl being punsished power structure. It was learned and it makes me feel safe.
But male submissives I know? Yes they crave punsishment, are more often than not hankering for it and do expect punishment even though they have done nothng to warrant it. For a male in this role? Perhaps the submissive male is so contrary tp the socialised norm that perhaps they genuinely feel they deserve be punished anyway, conisitent;y and most of the time, simply for being male and submissive. I must admit a male submissive whining on and on about being a bad boy is quite different to the way girls do it.
OK so I know I going to get accused of gender biases and sterotyping...and believe me I wrote most of that above from a labelling perspective which I don't often slip back into. But societies infuences? I guess no matter how different we feel ourselves to be in WIITWD, the norms of society and how we were reared are there eagery pulling us back into the dark ages the more we struggle to be free.
My advise? Be a male submissive and proud of it and stop harking after the punishment so much. It's enough to put a girl off her breakfast.

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RE: Physical punishment… how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 4:44:57 AM

ibelongtoKaiel

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This is a question that i ask myself often...i find myself craving physical punishment and am not quite sure what the mix of feelings are that make me crave this...for me, i don't think it is specifically the pain, but rather the need to have my Ma'am Dominance asserted over me...one of the most arousing and powerful things for me is being comfortable in being owned and knowing that my Ma'am can do as She pleases yet would never do real harm to me....it is a very comfortable place for me and punishment and/or administering pain is a reminder of Her power over me....i think it is equally arousing to have Her inflict pain and marks just because She enjoys it as opposed to specifically for punishment....i am not exactly sure what it is, but i love to feel Her marks after they have been administered and enjoy knowing they are there....like when the shower water runs down my back and i feel the nail marks sting - For me, there is also an aspect of behavoir correction and modificaton as it is important to me to continue to develop and to serve my Ma'am better - When i fall short behavoirally, it is important to me that my Ma'am addresses that behavoir - now i have never intentionally misbehaved in hopes of punishment and would not do that and i also would never beg for it, because it is important to me that it comes how and when and where, my Ma'am chooses it....W/we are 24/7 and married and life can sometimes get in the way of the D/s foundation of O/our relationship and periodic punishment can be an effective reminder of O/our foundation and O/our respective roles....not sure I have answered anything here :-)

(in reply to Lockit)

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RE: Physical punishment… how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 5:09:52 AM

masmiss

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My slave is a macho ex-military man who holds a position of authority and power in the workplace. His need for me to punish him severely gives him a sense of total powerlessness and that is what he craves. Knowing that I have complete power over him in those moments of corporal punishment makes him feel secure. He does try to provoke me at times to goad me into punishing him but I usually am aware of that and punish him in a way that has nothing to do with physical pain.
As for me I am a bit of a sadist so I do enjoy inflicting pain. But, I prefer a sort of ritualistic approach to flogging or spanking as opposed to just beating the crap out of my slave because he misbehaved.

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RE: Physical punishment… how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 5:17:17 AM

LadyPact

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Every time a thread on punishment comes up, I throw out the same offer. Please accept My invitation to ask clip personally if he likes to be punished. I can promise you that he is going to tell you that he doesn't.

Yes, I do think a good number of people confuse spankings and other physical activities, also known as "play" with punishment. Some can not accept that these things can be done just to have a fun time. They have to have an underlying *reason* for engaging in what is enjoyable. Almost like they can't admit that they want to receive a few blows. There has to be some underlying fault somewhere. It can't just be a case of, I like inflicting pain, you like receiving pain...... Let's get it on!

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RE: Physical punishment… how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 5:23:52 AM

MsFlutter

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Theoretical assumption: women are creatures that vent on an as-needed basis. Males tend to internalize everything and it can take something huge to 'force' them into an emotional release. 'Punishment' might be, in many cases, their shorthand for something that reliably trips their release valve. My shorthand would be "play" but that word tends to get some folks irritated.

Its a healthy release I've seen countless times. It may also be the lovely mental image they have of a female half their size rendering them helpless and doing evil things to them. I'm rather fond of both of those notions :)

Whiplash touched on another nuance - men communicate in terms of physicality, females trend toward a more cerebral/emotional interacton.

Lockit - I agree with you (I do that a lot) relative to 'is it really punishment they want or the touch of the flogger that signals 'okay - you can let go of stuff now'. I tend to think they really don't want punishment but, from there, we could fall off the cliff into the old 'punish me call me worthless/if you're worthless why would I want you?" conversation.

The scene from The Story of O just flashed thru my mind - the one where the maid opens the door and brushes the hair from her eyes, looking a bit disheveled from having worked O over upstairs. O *wanted* that "punishment" so...was it really punishment? We could chase our tails all day on this topic LOL.

Real punishment to me is denying the interaction. Something fell short - was it my leadership or his obedience? Until and unless that is resolved, the toys don't come out. If I'm mad enough to want to punish, there won't be anything in my hands - and he better be savvy enough to understand the significance.

< Message edited by MsFlutter -- 5/9/2009 5:46:27 AM >

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RE: Physical punishment… how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 5:32:32 AM

Fitznicely

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For U/us, punishment and pain play are clearly very different.

Inflicting pain is a big turn-on for me, so when W/we play, it normally involves a few strokes of the cane, genital torture, you know the kinda thing...but with play, there's a build-up, a structure to the play that means it can carry on longer. I may end up whaling crap outta her, but I can guarantee W/we're both getting a boatload of fun from it.

Now, punishment, on the other hand....firstly, it doesn't necessarily need to be corporal. I'm imaginitive enough to come up with a whole raft of torments for her which don't involve whacking her on the arse. When it IS corporal, the difference I've found is in the buildup. she can take endless thrashings when built up over time, but with no preparation, six of the best with the crop is enough to have her utterly abject and begging for mercy.

In very basic, global terms, I'd say if you enjoy it, or it fulfils some psychological need, it's play (whatever you personally WANT to call it). If it's fucking hell on earth and you want it to stop NOW, it's punishment.

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RE: Physical punishment… how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 7:41:48 AM

daddysliloneds

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

<snip>...I am wondering how many feel they need to be punished and if male submissive’s/slave’s see punishment differently or for some reason feel an emotional need for punishment that might be different than a female’s view of things. And if there is an emotional need for punishment, why that is or how it all works.

a long, long time ago, i was into punishment dynamics, until i found that i didn't like to be treated as an insulant child and that it wasn't good for my emotional well-being, thus, making me resent the person that i was with, and instead of bringing us closer together, made me push them away...

for me, punishment dynamics are more like bringing religious undertones into my relationship, such as feelings of guilt(like when i was raised by catholics), or feelings of fear(like when i was being raised by strict southern baptists). i don't need or desire feeling absolution from my 'sins', so to speak...

if something in my relationship gets so bad that my dominant would feel the need to punish, then i would say that our relationship is already over.

< Message edited by daddysliloneds -- 5/9/2009 7:45:53 AM >

(in reply to Lockit)

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RE: Physical punishment… how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 9:11:00 AM

ranja

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physical punishment to us is always play, sometimes painful.
Also sometimes He might use it to break the tension if we have a stupid verbal dissagreement, He might just smack my arse hard and we both will feel a lot lighter...it is a very good way to dissolve tension between us. It only works one way...if i ever would have the odassity to smack Him like that He would probably knock me out.

Sometimes I might want pain and ask Him for it and he might 'punish' me by denying me...i don't like that but He derives a strange pleasure from predicting my desires, waiting for me to ask and then denying me...He likes to wind me up that way sometimes...

If he really wanted to punish me i suppose He would disable my computer.

(in reply to Lockit)

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RE: Physical punishment...how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 9:35:07 AM

MarcEsadrian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Are some confusing enjoying spankings or physical acts with punishment or is it actual punishment they seek?

Yes, I believe sensory play and discipline / punishment often seem like interchangeable terms for many who have interest in BDSM. There are some who use the words to support fantasy fulfillment and others who use the words to express need for structure in a more literal form. Self immolation of some sort is arguably a component for both camps, but I use the concepts of sensory play and need for structure in juxtaposition, as I believe these motives inevitably represent the two ends of the spectrum. While there are obvious permutations of both "sides" in the real world, I think it can be said overall that people generally divide into either camp: those seeking sensual, psychodynamic entertainment of a sort and those wanting and pursuing a deeper fulfillment and affirmation of some form. As for how these drives differ between males and females, it's difficult to write anything with any authority on that subject outside of suggesting the sexes often express innate motives differently due to biological and cultural reasons. Nonetheless, the "need" for abuse or strict discipline can and does run through both sexes.

Great questions in this thread; one can write a long-winded thesis on this subject and still not address all angles. In light of that, I'll stop with the paltry generalizations above.

(in reply to Lockit)

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RE: Physical punishment...how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 10:41:58 AM

LovingMistress45

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Lockit,

I have notice a similar trend. I do play with females as well and for the most part I don't have them express a "need" for punishment, which many men do. Personally, I don't want to be in a relationship with someone that needs/wants to be physically punished. Just way too much work. I am a sadist and I love inflicting pain for pleasure. When I have punished a sub/slave it tends not to be physically and if it is physical I really don't enjoy it I am not in the right mindset it is not my inner sadist playing, and I make sure the sub/slave knows this by emphasizing how disappointed I am or how hurt by the behavior. I find that has a strong impact if the person is truly mine and wants to please me. Also, if punishment became the norm I would have to really question the relationship. If I am constantly having to punish the person, is there really a true M/s relationship going on? To me if I am taking the time to discipline/punish the person it is because I believe the core of the M/s relationship is there and to me that does not include having to force submission or obiedence.

Now with that said, I realize there are many that enjoy "punishment play" which to means they need to feel like it is a punishment. That is fine and I really have no problem with that. I started in spanking fetish and that is pretty common in that setting. To me the difference is both of us know it is a roleplay. So, I can be the strict disciplinarian and lecture and all of that. The differnce to me is no matter what I am saying about being disappointed or how bad he is, it is not how I feel, it is a role for the moment. It is sort of like those that want to be verbally humiliated. I don't want in a relationship where I have to tell someone what a worthless piece of crap they are all the time, because if it was true why would I want them. However, I don't mind on occassion as a reward because the person has pleased me, spending weekend being a cruel bitch that can't be pleased no matter how hard it tries it is always wrong and I make sure he knows just how worthless he is and how I could do much better and deserve much better than him. However, come Monday that is over and we are back to the real relationship.

(in reply to MarcEsadrian)

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RE: Physical punishment...how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 10:42:38 AM

PanthersMom

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the males i have encountered seem to believe physical punishment is an incentive to keep them in line, as if the use of some form of physical punishment should be used routinely, almost proactively, and increased as needed.. females would prefer to have punishments administered as deserved. that's been my experience so far. maybe i'll meet others that challenge those ideas, but so far those have been the most prevalent ideas.

PM

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RE: Physical punishment...how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 11:16:22 AM

Lockit

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Thank you all for some really wonderful responses to my questions!

I have always had this horrific picture in my mind when hearing or seeing someone that I thought was more wanting me to parent them than be a lover. I saw a need on one hand and was fine with that and yet I did close the door when some things were said. I think what some mean when they say some things is proving to be different than what I 'see' when they say it.

Men and women are different and there is no way to say that, that some won't take offense to, but in many ways we are different. We think differently and express ourselves differently in many ways. In a general sense... there are always variations and such. So I wondered if some of this was coming into play and how I should look at things.

I never thought I would want a relationship where there was a punishment dynamic... until certain moments that is! lol Then I wanted to punish! Hell, I once wanted to actually bloody an ass and believe me, that was a shocker to me in a way! I didn't do anything. Didn't touch the man, but damn in my mind... he was touched! lol So in ways I can see some of this being useful and yet the major part of me simply doesn't want to go there.

But thanks to your response I think I can wrap my brain around a few things a bit easier and I know it will take some time to digest some of it.

Many of you bring up some points I may want to explore later here... but at the moment I think it is much safer to hold back a bit and let my brain wake up. lol

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RE: Physical punishment… how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 1:33:49 PM

lally2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

I am wondering how many feel they need to be punished and if male submissive’s/slave’s see punishment differently or for some reason feel an emotional need for punishment that might be different than a female’s view of things. And if there is an emotional need for punishment, why that is or how it all works.

i freely admit that all of my fantasies ran along the lines of what LadyPact is talking about. largely because i hailed from the mainstream mindset, that to be spanked = punishment and that was how my brain dealt with my need to be dominated in that physical way.

Are some confusing enjoying spankings or physical acts with punishment or is it actual punishment they seek?

in my dynamic there is no confusion between punishment and play, the two are separated by psychology. both can be equally painful but knowing that my Master is enjoying his slave rather than finding her to be hard work is enough to make the whole thing an ordeal. so no, i no longer confuse my fantasies with reality. punishment takes up far too much valuable time when W/we could be enjoying O/ourselves. i do not seek punishment on any level anymore. my curiosity has been cured.

i can see how some might though. if that is how they handle their 'need' and possibly for a man it is a slightly harder leap for them to take the dominance of pain play without wrapping it up as punishment. and i wonder how many of those male subs have actually been in a r/l relationship and experienced the difference between play and genuine punishment.

the reality of genuine punishment, not funishment, not role play, not pretext, but genuine - Domme disssapointed and fed up and would much rather be doing something else - punishment - kills all potential for fun in a slave or sub geared toward pleasing and never wanting to be seen as a pest.

but you know this fuzzy area is as much to do with the D's approach as the subs. if the D enjoys punishment from a purely sadistic level then the sub gets put in an odd situation. are they serving their D by acting up for a punishment in order to please their D.

ive been in a situation like that, where my D was a disciplinarian. i felt that i wasnt delivering if i didnt give him something to discipline me for. not a dynamic i found particularly rewarding in the end - but you see where im going.

i think that possibly D's need to make it very very clear that punishment will involve something the sub/slave is going to really dislike on a level that makes the sub/slave think twice next time. for sure youll stop getting alot of the guys who feel that punishment is all about them. but then you might miss out on the ones who just need to find out for themselves. as i did and im sure lots and lots of others have too.

< Message edited by lally2 -- 5/9/2009 1:57:45 PM >

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RE: Physical punishment… how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 2:37:11 PM

DesFIP

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I don't ever want punishment and in fact we dropped that from the dynamic after the first few months.

At the same time, I would love to get a maintenance spanking nightly. But I don't consider that punishment. And I think the emails you're getting are from people who can't tell the difference. Because being told four times a week that you've failed yet again isn't good for anyone's self esteem but lots of people thrive on maintenance spankings.

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RE: Physical punishment… how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 2:44:24 PM

Lockit

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I am a big believer in maitenance spankings. I've seen the benefits there and that sigh of relief is something that just goes right through me when I feel it, because when I see it, hear it... I feel it. It charges me up! lol Their response is so endearing.

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RE: Physical punishment… how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 3:40:51 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitznicely
.

In very basic, global terms, I'd say if you enjoy it, or it fulfils some psychological need, it's play (whatever you personally WANT to call it). If it's fucking hell on earth and you want it to stop NOW, it's punishment.

Yes i thought that was a great distinction but then i did a double take....the real punishment for me? is when He withdraws, in anyway..when I am blindfolded and can't feel where He is in the room, or there is a silence and a space... i mean there's a form of gentle contact between strokes of the whip or cane let's say...but it's the spaces and the silences... any kind of withdrawal.... so what i mean is if i am aware of where He is and what He is doing then for me there is no real difference between if it's called play or punishment... as sensation I reconcile to it and the more painful the more i have to reconcile to it then the more it is a measure of my submission... but if there is an absnece of Him and a void to submit to then that is my punishment.

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RE: Physical punishment… how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 4:14:33 PM

tiinkerbell

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I don't ever want punishment and in fact we dropped that from the dynamic after the first few months.

At the same time, I would love to get a maintenance spanking nightly. But I don't consider that punishment. And I think the emails you're getting are from people who can't tell the difference. Because being told four times a week that you've failed yet again isn't good for anyone's self esteem but lots of people thrive on maintenance spankings.

I am going to feel like a huge idiot asking this but...what is a maintance spanking?

Allison

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RE: Physical punishment… how do you see it? - 5/9/2009 6:40:09 PM

missturbation

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My present Sir doesn't like punishing me, he'd much rather be whipping the hell out of me for fun. My ex Sir enjoyed punishing me but never did it just for the sake of doing it. Everyones different i guess.

Me i hate punishment no matter what, can't stand the concept of funishment either.

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