RE: Turning the numbers (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 10:07:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

I too have issue with the "forced" aspect of some boys who want to be girls.  If "forced" means

"Make me do this so I will feel like it was -okay- and so I don't have to acknowledge it or integrate it into my person..."

or

"So I can justify -cheating- on my spouse or -denying- this part of myself and keep on living a lie..."

Then no thanks!  Out of balance, in denial, or betraying a relationship are not good representations for the kind of person I am or the -perception- of me I want the world of Female Dominants to see.   Sadly the numbers, as Lady P has aptly pointed out, are against us....[&o]

Might I ask you about this particular comment, Otters?  (My regards to your Lady as always.)

When you say the numbers are against "us," I tend to think that you are coming from a different perspective than I am.  I'm thinking that I am coming from a place that says, as a Dominant woman, this kink has no interest to Me, but it seems so common in male submissives. Instead, your comment seems to reflect the position that it is harder for someone who enjoys being feminized to find someone who accepts it.  Am I correct in that assumption?




OttersSwim -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 10:08:49 AM)

Lady P, you are correct.  My comment in the first post was misplaced as my thoughts on the matter were not yet fully formed.  Please see my second post where the comment becomes a bit more relevant.  [:)]




LadyPact -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 10:19:32 AM)

It's pretty bad when I can't keep up with a thread I started, isn't it, Otters?  LOL.

Actually, I did think of you a bit when I was creating this thread.  I very fondly remember the post you wrote some time ago about your first adventure being out and about town as your feminine self.  Personally, I enjoyed reading that a great deal and, from a distance, was quite happy for your experience.

The thing is, I really do understand the concept of that need for self expression, but at the same time, I know it doesn't fit Me or My life.  It's why I know from the beginning that anyone who needs this isn't a good match for Me. 




OttersSwim -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 10:27:45 AM)

And in that Lady P, we have both beauty and tragedy I think.  I can understand how alluring a strong male energy must be and imagine how dominating someone in that space would be quite fulfilling....and quite hard to find.  

In a way, you and those fine Ladies like you, are on the opposite end of where I am...and we both have an exceedingly small pool of quality people to select from.  I thank the Gods every day that I found my Lady and I know you have several in your life who match well with you, and that you have shown to be thankful for as well.

I wonder if we all have not in this time in history put the other just out of reach and if that gap will not continue to grow? 




LadyPact -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 10:42:37 AM)

Quite an excellent musing, Otters!  I agree completely on the point that we should be grateful for those in our lives.  That is the beauty of finding who matches us.

However, I'm not sure I see this as a gap.  There is so much we can learn from each other, even when coming from different places.




allthatjaz -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 1:27:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kttqnp

To define cheating, I try to put myself in the place of the spouse.  Would it bother me that my husband was sharing something intimate with another woman, "sexual" or not?  You betcha it would, and to me, that is cheating.  Maybe my definition is more stringent than most; maybe "betrayal" is a better word.  I still think that these men have a choice to reveal themselves to the woman in their life that is supposedly their parner, their best friend, their confidant, their WIFE.  I refuse to be a party to roleplay that undermines a marital relationship, no matter how innocuous it may seem.


But would it bother you if your spouse came to you and admitted that sometimes he wanted to be a she? Would you be able to embrace that or would you throw your arms in the air and say 'oh my god your sick'
Not all wives are best friends, confidants. Even fewer are open minded and understanding.
Whilst I can understand you not wanting to be a party to roleplay, I can also understand that a T-girl is in such a different emotional state that you are not seeing anyones husband, boyfriend, partner but another person in the same body. You are seeing a unique individual with different needs, different wants and no agenda other than being able to share that very important side of herself, whilst at the same time desperately trying to protect the ones she loves.




Steponme73 -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 2:45:36 PM)

Someone please explain to me why a man would want to be sissyfied?  I don't get the drive behind that...




MissIsis -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 2:56:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
But would it bother you if your spouse came to you and admitted that sometimes he wanted to be a she? Would you be able to embrace that or would you throw your arms in the air and say 'oh my god your sick'
Not all wives are best friends, confidants. Even fewer are open minded and understanding.


Though some wives are not best friends, or confidants, if a husband has these desires, & has them strong enough to act on them, with or without his wife's understanding, he should have the balls to be honest enough with her about who he is, better yet, who she married.  Then be a man & deal with the fallout, whatever that may be.  Give the women he married the choice to stay with him as he is, or to leave him.  So what if she leaves him.  Men & women leave each other all the time, & have for centuries.  It's not the end of the world to end a relationship. 




OttersSwim -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 3:49:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steponme73
Someone please explain to me why a man would want to be sissyfied?  I don't get the drive behind that...


First, I think it important to point out that there can be a large difference between someone who wants sissification and someone who experiences gender dysphoria as it relates to real feelings of wanting to -be- or experience elements of being female.  While I enjoy feeling feminine, I have no desire to be simpering, silly, or appear dressed as a sissy is typically betrayed.

I know that there is a blending of terminology going on whereby some folk use the term "sissy" for any male in female guise.  I personally do not agree with this useage as it has a negative connotation with some and I prefer to keep what and who I am positive, balanced, strong, and affirming.

As to why...I think with some it is a way to shed off the responsibility and expectations (even for a time) that society expects of a male.  It can weigh heavy on some and it is a way to escape into a safe and soft place. 




LadyConstanze -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 3:57:07 PM)

Since I tend to wear a lot of jeans and simple t-shirts when not wearing business suits or leather, am I a female cross dresser?

The whole concept of gender specific clothes seems a bit odd to me, I quite enjoy men in skirts, even if some cultures prefer to call them kilts (Mel Gibson in Braveheart, anybody?)




pinnipedster -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 4:29:07 PM)

For myself, I've said it before, but this thread seems like a good place to repeat and perhaps amplify it:

I am a crossdresser, with some elements of being transgendered, depending on exactly how you define the term.  (Actually, I think I'm an example of what some call an autogynephile, but that's a touchy and controversial topic in itself.)  I've been fascinated with the idea of dressing as/being female ever since I can remember -- at least since I was four years old or so -- and have been practicing it, on and off, since my teens.  The vast majority of my dressing has been done in non-kinky and non-sexual circumstances; it's a big part of who I am.

Since my mid-twenties or so, I've been fairly open about this part of me amongst my friends.  I have read numerous accounts from crossdressers who have married and kept it secret from their wives, often for decades.  I can't imagine doing this.  I can't imagine being in love with someone who didn't at least accept this part of me, and preferably embrace it.  Part of my opening up about it was the hope that some woman I met would actually find it intriguing and make that known to me -- this, unfortunately, has not worked.

But how it might fit into a relationship -- particularly a relationship with a strong D/s component -- is something on which I am very flexible and willing to negotiate.  I admit there are some aspects of submission which I find more natural or interesting when I'm in femme role, and I apologize if that offends any feminists (I sometimes am a bit uncomfortable with it myself, but the feeling is there).  There's also the fact that I just find pictures of women in bondage or submission to be extremely erotic, and I always find myself wanting to be her -- I want to be that sexy and desirable, while also experiencing that sense of helplessness. 

The standard "forced femme/sissy maid" scenario does have its appeal, certainly -- I have started using the term "enforced feminization" rather than "forced", in that you don't have to use any kind of coercion to get me to dress up, but the idea of having a woman being in control of when, where, and how is definitely intriguing; particularly having her insist on my remaining pretty and ladylike even when I would rather not.

On the other hand, I also like the idea of her treating me exactly the same (so far as is anatomically possible) as she would any female sub, assuming she has any interest in female submissives.  I could even imagine serving a couple in this role, something I would have no interest in doing in male role.  This wouldn't involve any form of feminization/humiliation -- I'd be doing my own dressing and makeup (though she would be free to impose her own styles or standards).  It would just be like having a female sub who happens to have a penis.

I also would be open to a relationship where my gender issues were entirely seperate from the D/s dynamic, or our sex life in general.  Sometimes I'd be her male subbie; other times I'd be her gal-pal.  I certainly know some straight women who would have no more interest in a romantic/sexual relationship with a crossdresser any more than they would with a "real" woman, but who are willing to have crossdressers as "girlfirends."  While I admit that wouldn't be my top preference -- my "sister" would like to have a sex life too ;) -- it would be more than acceptable if we were otherwise compatible.

So: I would like to make it clear that not every sub with an interest in crossdressing is necessarily insistent upon the "Sissy Maid" scenario; I would hope that not every Dominant woman who finds that side of it distasteful would rule the rest of us out altogether.




stella41b -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 4:53:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissIsis

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
But would it bother you if your spouse came to you and admitted that sometimes he wanted to be a she? Would you be able to embrace that or would you throw your arms in the air and say 'oh my god your sick'
Not all wives are best friends, confidants. Even fewer are open minded and understanding.


Though some wives are not best friends, or confidants, if a husband has these desires, & has them strong enough to act on them, with or without his wife's understanding, he should have the balls to be honest enough with her about who he is, better yet, who she married.  Then be a man & deal with the fallout, whatever that may be.  Give the women he married the choice to stay with him as he is, or to leave him.  So what if she leaves him.  Men & women leave each other all the time, & have for centuries.  It's not the end of the world to end a relationship. 



Have you ever felt you were a member of the opposite sex so much, nay sorry, carried the conviction that you ARE trapped in the wrong body for your actual gender and wished that one person, just one person could see you and accept you as you really are inside?

Have you ever wished Miss Isis that you could be accepted as a male, or simply been given the opportunity to dress like one and behave like one?

Have you ever had Miss Isis serious doubts as to whether you are female or not and simply wished to explore and spend some time in male gender just to see how you felt and be able to make a comparison?

Do you know what it's like to have a compulsion which can be set off by various triggers and be unable to think clearly or function until you have satisfied that compulsion?

All you have are doubts, feelings,. impressions, compulsions, no reasons, no explanations, it's something which you feel, need, but cannot put into words.

This isn't exactly something you can explain to someone in a couple of sentences. It's not even a subject most people want to talk about. It's taboo.

Allthatjaz is right, and I'm extremely grateful for her input into the discussion on this thread. I am a transgendered female, on hormones, mid transition, and yes I was married, and my wife did know, in fact my deciding to seek gender reassignment was the penultimate reason for my divorce.

I started having serious gender issues when I was 13, I went through a major part of my life not being completely sure who I really was, I was originally diagnosed by a child psychiatrist as a transvestite and given a pile of soft porn magazines and told to wank off to them so that I could be 'normal' at 18. When that didn't work out it was electric shock therapy at the age of 17. Didn't have much of a childhood my teen years were crap, and it wasn't until I was married that it came out that I was a transsexual female.

I'e gone through the 'wanting to be feminized completely' phase, a phase when I thought myself a crossdresser, a transvestite, a two spirit, a hermaphrodite, and even a male and female trapped inside a male body.

However all along I was the same person, I was just unaware of who I really was. Kind of hard to accept you're actually female when you've been raised a boy, referred to as a boy, been socialized as a male and have a penis and two balls dangling between your legs. But that's not the point, go try and convince other people and the rest of the world the same.

I actually went and did what you suggest Miss Isis, however at the time of my 'moment of truth' and 'self-discovery' I was in the upper echelons of Polish society as a successful playwright and stage director, a promising actor, rich, successful, the sort of life very few people get to enjoy but many people dream of. I was popular, well known, there were articles written about me, and at that time if you were to ask Poles to name a stage play you had a one in three chance that they would give you the title of one of my plays. However I chose not to live the lie and walked away from the whole lot, starting with my divorce.

I won't go into the time when I spent almost a month street homeless in snow and temperatures of up to minus twenty in Warsaw but suffice to say I survived. Nor will I recall hitchhiking across Europe over 4 days suffering from hypothermia and having frostbitten feet but I managed to get through that too.

I'm 42, have managed to find myself a home and over three years work myself back from being homeless. I've even managed to set myself up a little theatre here in London. However much of my life is finished. I'm unemployable, I form relationships with dommes (I'm that way inclined) but I'm not inundated with offers, my track record in BDSM is as a female service submissive, the maid, the skivvy, even the sissy maid (I'm not a sissy, just a little broadminded and versatile), the freak show, the experiment. Lots of interest from dommes when they want no strings housework or their house cleaning, but ask for something back in return such as a bit of acceptance, understanding, friendship and they somehow just seem to vanish. A bit more interest from guys, especially those who want me to fuck them up the ass or who want to suck my cock, completely oblivious as to how much pain, anguish and emotional heartache having a penis has caused me. I have days, weekends, in fact whole weeks without any chance of a decent conversation.

Nowhere will you see it written, but I carry the label 'socially unacceptable'. At least to most. There are some who see it for what it really is, who may not be able to fully understand, but they accept that things might be difficult, and who go out of their way to express empathy, support, kindness, warmth.

This isn't a pity party, this is how it is for someone who is transgendered.

It takes an awful amount of courage and strength to come out and to seek to face up to one's issues if you are transgendered, especially when you have a lot to lose. Not everybody has that amount of courage or strength, not everybody can afford to lose what I and many of my sisters have lost in the struggle to become themselves. It's very easy to say 'should', 'should have', and only see this from one particular perspective.

There's such a thing called love, there's also UMs and families, sometimes ending a relationship can lead to a broken home and childhoods becoming devastated.

Who is to really say what the married crossdresser or transvestite is to do for the best of all concerned?

There but for the grace of God. There but for the grace of God.






LadyHibiscus -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 5:01:48 PM)

When I was a pro dom, I worked with crossdressers A LOT.  A dear friend of mine (now deceased) got into kink in the 60's when CD groups were a big underground movement.  I love playing dressup.   I am firmly convinced that crotchless panties were made to be worn by MEN. 

Other than an occasional amusement, I am not interested in femming my partner.  I like men to be traditionally masculine in appearance.   If dressing is a vital thing for the man, well, he is not made to be part of my household. 

I tried to do the "sometimes" thing with some fetishes my slave liked that meant nothing to me, but it just didn't work because I couldn't remember to keep doing it!   In the end, I was just humoring him, with no enthusiasm.  That's not fun, no matter what.




LadyConstanze -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 5:09:47 PM)

Stella, I just want to thank you for a very honest post. Some friends of mine went through it, none of them made the decision an easy one, none of them went for it on just a whim, for none of them it was easy.

There's the old saying about not judging anybody unless you did walk at least a mile in their shoes, I am glad I don't have to because what they went through is nothing I would wish on anybody.




LadyPact -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 6:01:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

When I was a pro dom, I worked with crossdressers A LOT. 
<snipped for brevity>



This is a curiosity of Mine, LH.  Perhaps one that you and the others who have worked in the professional side can answer for Me.

Do you think you had a high number of CD clients because they had more difficulty finding a lifestyle Dominant due to this particular kink?  Would you put this in the same category as married male submissives who use the services of professionals because many lifestyle Dommes aren't willing to have a married person in their life?




LadyConstanze -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 6:12:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

When I was a pro dom, I worked with crossdressers A LOT. 
<snipped for brevity>



This is a curiosity of Mine, LH.  Perhaps one that you and the others who have worked in the professional side can answer for Me.

Do you think you had a high number of CD clients because they had more difficulty finding a lifestyle Dominant due to this particular kink?  Would you put this in the same category as married male submissives who use the services of professionals because many lifestyle Dommes aren't willing to have a married person in their life?



No, I don't think that it was because they had more difficulty to finding a lifestyle domme, most of them wanted to live out that part of themselves without getting involved in a lifestyle setting that would made have demands on their time and relationship, most of them thought it was a good option to keep the feelings "in a box" and not emotionally betray the wife.

It made me very sad to hear confessions like "I asked her to wear her pantyhose under my suit, so I could feel her near me and that I love the feeling of the nylon on me, she acted like I told her I'm a rapist or a child molester and said to never ever bring it up or she would leave me!"

There are so many wives and spouses out there who will not accept that their partner possibly ventures out of the realm of "conventional sexuality" or might have needs that aren't even so sexual, but who should be addressed, a lot of those guys are left alone and made to feel guilty about something that most of us would consider fairly harmless, it is actually depressing!




LadyPact -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 6:21:56 PM)

LadyC, My last comment may have been confusing.  I'm not specifying cross dressers who happen to be married.  What I'm asking is, do pros see more CDs because it's harder to find a lifestyle Domme who is willing to participate in feminization?




LadyConstanze -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 6:42:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

LadyC, My last comment may have been confusing.  I'm not specifying cross dressers who happen to be married.  What I'm asking is, do pros see more CDs because it's harder to find a lifestyle Domme who is willing to participate in feminization?


I thought I answered that, most of the clients tend to be married and seeing a pro domme is "easier" for them to emotionally explain and separate, also with guys living in a relationship. A lot of the CDs are actually very very attractive men, I think the fact that they do pay in coin instead of service has a lot to do with it - maybe instant gratification, maybe emotional detachment (difficult if you are in a life-style relationship) once the craving is fulfilled they seem to want to forget about it, drawer shut, sort of "it didn't happen".

Personally I do know a lot of life-style dommes who are very drawn to CDs, but their demands are not always easy to fulfill (to serve them when they want, they feel like it, have time, etc.) so a lot of guys might take the easy option. Another factor might be that it is hard for a man to keep female clothes in his size hidden, or even buy them ("I would like that dress in my size, not sure which female size I am" - plenty of them balk at that, or else why would ebay and a PO address be the choice of quite a lot of CDs), a pro domme will have clothes, wigs, shoes in large sizes and makeup available, they can experiment with different looks... Maybe just a practicality?

For somebody who is satisfied to live that part out only once a month or every couple of weeks, a pro domme is possibly the better and easier option, especially if there's no particular interest in service or masochism. How many life-style dommes would be interested in just seeing the transformation? So yes, that might be an reason, because quite a few CDs aren't into any other aspects of BDSM (some are but some aren't).

Additionally, the "gifts" some life-style dommes demand will possibly make it cheaper to visit a pro domme, of course not all of them but you would possibly surprised (or maybe not) to hear what some do demand.

As I said, not all CDs are into BDSM, so that might cancel a few life-style dommes out, quite a lot of them are happy to fulfill the craving only occasionally, if they have a rather tight schedule, it is difficult to fit in real service... I think there is a multilude of reasons.





MzMia -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 7:34:26 PM)

Huggles stella!

I was waiting for you to post, what took you so long?
You certainly have walked the walk.

Excellent post, as usual.

 
Thank you also Lady C., you certainly gave me a few idea's to ponder!




LadyPact -> RE: Turning the numbers (5/11/2009 7:39:55 PM)

LadyC, I appreciate the time you took in writing your reply.  Being of the mind that I am, knowing that certain kinks wouldn't fit Me, I do know there is always the issue of compatibility.  Forgive the poor phrasing, but I tend to think certain kinks are easier to find someone to participate with than others.  For example, it might be easier to find someone who wants to participate in a flogging rather than a caning, or needles, or other activities.

While cross dressing isn't a kink that specifically involves physical pain, I tend to see it in the same way.  Some have no interest in CDs, just like some have no interest in bisexuals or other aspects of expression.  I have to admit, I wonder where the numbers lie, even though I'm quite sure I'll never know the answer.

Again, please allow Me to thank you for your time and sharing your experience.




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