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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 10:31:21 AM

janiebelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Oreos are a vegetarian food.

Any madly unbalanced diet is going to be bad for you. How lucky we are in the western world to be able to indulge in bizarre food habits. So many are limited to the food that they can find locally, provide themselves, and preserve themselves.

It's a sad fact that most people, vegan, vegetarian, or omnivore, are woefully ignorant about their food. A small, and ever decreasing, percentage of the population grows or harvests their own food. I am lucky that I am able to grow about 60% of the food I consume. And that not only covers the gardens, corn field, bean patch, etc, but two hogs and one steer put into the freezer along with a lot of venison every fall. I've also worked in the commercial food industry. I can tell you from personal experience that the food fresh from the field or vine, pickled in season, or meat grown with no hormones or chemical feed additives, is so far superior to what you can buy in the local grocery that it amazes me that people even buy that crap masquerading as food.
j

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 21

RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 10:32:50 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dmt

I think a lot of people tend to just get grossed out by animals that have slaughtered for their dining pleasure... they tend to over think the fact that whatever was put in front of them was bred for other than the purpose of assimilation to digestion, and deny the fact that they have eye teeth and canine teeth for a designed purpose...(note, I've seen the photos thrust in my face, and I've also seen the body's reaction to someone who is a carnivore try to stop meat intake all at once..) here's the thing, I will eat animal flesh as my body was designed to do. You...? do whatever the heck you want.

Could be, but most of us are so disassociated from "real food" that kids actually think meat comes from the neat packets in the supermarket.

If your system works well on meat, no reason to stop it, especially if you have no health concerns, absolutely perfect but I would suggest meat from animals that are raised in normal conditions and not "meat farms" where they get pumped up with antibiotics, tranquilizers, fattening agents, etc.

You know, the reaction of somebody who doesn't like meat and who's system is not accustomed to meat can also be interesting, a friend tried to force a piece of steak (blue) into my mouth. The result was no pretty, no, I didn't hit him, he just needed a shower and his clothes a good cleaner.

I'm not a rigid "You can't eat meat" person, I simply hate the taste and have done so since I was a child. I'm a bit "Whatever is right for your body, but please don't force me to eat meat, it will make me sick!"

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Post #: 22

RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 10:36:20 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: janiebelle

I've also worked in the commercial food industry. I can tell you from personal experience that the food fresh from the field or vine, pickled in season, or meat grown with no hormones or chemical feed additives, is so far superior to what you can buy in the local grocery that it amazes me that people even buy that crap masquerading as food.
j

Fresh food just tastes so different, while I don't grow my own food (bit difficult in the city center) I tend to buy fresh food from the farmer's market, a hell lot of difference to the supermarket veg and I can't stand tinned veg with their bright colours, tastes of everything but not the food it's supposed to be.

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Post #: 23

RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 10:53:31 AM

samboct

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"Oreos are vegetarian."

Umm, don't be too sure on that one. At least a few years ago, they weren't. If you read the ingredients on Oreos (and a lot of stuff out of Nabisco)-the label says "shortening". "Shortening" rather than vegetable shortening (Crisco) is typically lard, being inexpensive. Don't think lard counts as vegetarian.

Lady C

While based on your photos, you have a lovely figure and hence it's hard to argue that whatever you're doing works well for you- the fact remains that for most people, it's easier to get a balanced, nutritious diet if you include some animal protein.

One of the things that seems to be lost in this debate is that when people transitioned from hunter gatherers to a more agrarian economy- their food choices diminished and their diet became far more dependent on a few foodstuffs. My comment (and the scientists at the conference) is that a broad diet is important for human health. The telling data was comparing hunter gatherers from 3,000 years ago with people who lived on a farm in the Middle Ages. Both sets of individuals got plenty of exercise and fresh air. Both also got broken bones too. People on a farm got a bunch of diseases that hunter gatherers didn't get such as tuberculosis and other livestock borne ailments.

Note- if you starve a serf, odds are you're not going to get a lot of work out of them. You were much more likely to starve in a city than on a farm.

And yes, I'm another one who agrees that we should eat food- i.e. stuff that people at the turn of the century would recognize as such, rather than the highly processed, synthetic substances that contain empty calories and little else.

I'd love to see an analysis if we actually save money as a society by selling this stuff. If Dame C. is correct, any savings we get by shoveling highly processed junk food to the poor folks (why are highly processed snacks available primarily in the poorer schools?) is obliterated when they get older and health care costs balloon.

Sam

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 24

RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 10:54:01 AM

janiebelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Fresh food just tastes so different, while I don't grow my own food (bit difficult in the city center) I tend to buy fresh food from the farmer's market, a hell lot of difference to the supermarket veg and I can't stand tinned veg with their bright colours, tastes of everything but not the food it's supposed to be.

Tastes of nothing but the can [tin]. I do some canning myself at home- saurkraut for a friend (

I hate cabbage), tomatoes, and pico de gallo. But put up in jars is so far different from tinned.
j

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 25

RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 11:03:54 AM

RedMagic1

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Since I went organic and vegetarian (15 months ago) I've lost two inches off my waist. I like meat, and I'll eat some on my birthday, in part to make sure I get B-12, which is hard in a vegetarian diet. But I only eat meat twice a year: on my birthday and on Thanksgiving.

Reducing fat, especially fat buildup around the heart, is the #1 way in the US to improve your long-term quality of life and avoid an early death. By just changing two things -- no foods with chemicals, and no meat -- I dramatically improved my eating habits. I don't think eating meat is necessarily bad for you, but the way 99% of people actually do eat meat? Yeah, that's bad for you.

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Post #: 26

RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 11:22:31 AM

LadyConstanze

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Sam,

Eggs and dairy products (though people should be careful with supplementing everything with too much dairy, can easily lead to anemia, calcium and iron don't mix well) are excellent sources of animal protein.

Most of the land in the Middle Ages was owned by an overlord, they didn't care much if their people died early, contraceptives were not an option, the poor had large families, it was easy to replace a serf.

I don't think nutrition is rocket science, the more processed your food is, the more you are losing natural ingredients and the more additives you got, the additives don't just run through, they react with your body and they are stored there, quite a lot make you sick. One of the worst offenders are artificial sweeteners. Diet Pepsi or Diet Coke might have zero calories but you are pumping a hell lot of poison into your body.
The funny thing is that I actually spend less money on food but have better quality food than friends who buy a lot of ready meals, and it doesn't take so much more time to wash and cut up a few veg and make an omelette, you can buy it in the supermarket, full of saturated fats and pay a great deal more, you maybe spent 10 minutes less preparing it, the nutritional value will be lower, the calorie count possibly a lot higher.

Simple example is if you do look at schools, in "rich" areas the kids tend to be less overweight, in the poorer areas you find more obese people, if you look at their eating habits, the more affluent ones have better diets, fresher food, the parents make sure of that, the latch kids get the money and buy their own lunch, and that will be a packet of crisps, fries, soft-drinks...

I think the whole industry has done a fantastic job in brainwashing us all into believing that all we need are ready meals with the big slogan "diet" printed on them. There is much more profit to be made from pre-prepared food and you can use lower quality ingredients and cover them up with artificial flavours and additives. How many kids actually know what a fresh carrot tastes like? A really fresh one, not one that comes in a neat plastic back, has been forced to grow really quick with tons of fertilizers and is basically just watery....

I'm seriously not somebody who will point at everybody who eats meat and scream "MURDERER", it's just not the right stuff for my system and nobody can tell me that animals that are full of steroids, hormones and all sorts of chemicals (grow fast, get fat quick - meat producer is paid by the pound and not quality) are remotely healthy. Those animals have to be slaughtered as soon as they have reached their target size, they wouldn't stand surviving. Now if you consider that, how healthy is it to consume their meat?
On the same hand, salad is hailed as healthy, well, yeah, same story, green house, forced to grow out of season with all sorts of fertilizers and chemicals, treated with tons of chemicals to keep the insects away... I hate slugs, disgusting animals, but you know if a slug doesn't want to eat a salad leave, I sure don't want to eat it, if it ain't good enough for them....

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Post #: 27

RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 12:37:55 PM

YourhandMyAss

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I remember on the show you are what you eat, A 12 year old had never seen a vegetable or fruit on her plate her entire life, because mom liked junk and cooked junk for her family.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

A smaller skeleton doesn't mean less healthy.

I am not an advocate for being a vegetarian. However I do know that the typical US diet is totally fucked up. Too much animal protein and not enough fresh fruits and veggies and complex carbs.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 28

RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 1:33:27 PM

YourhandMyAss

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That reminds me of an episode of headlines on Jay Leno. The lady was indignant and horrified with hunters and wrote about shame on you and you're bullies and why don't you get your meat from the grocery store, where poor helpless animals were not hurt in the procuring of the meat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Could be, but most of us are so disassociated from "real food" that kids actually think meat comes from the neat packets in the supermarket.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 29

RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 1:54:04 PM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

That reminds me of an episode of headlines on Jay Leno. The lady was indignant and horrified with hunters and wrote about shame on you and you're bullies and why don't you get your meat from the grocery store, where poor helpless animals were not hurt in the procuring of the meat.

She possibly meant well and thought animals that are raised to be slaughtered have a better life, nothing could be further from the truth, pigs and often cows are raised really in meat factories, they never see the light of day, have little room to move...

Not liking meat is not a question of ethics for me, but I still would draw the line between the unhealthy meat and possibly take into consideration the suffering of the animal too, let it at least have a semi-normal life, it's less cruel and more healthy. I actually like chicken meat, well, I don't mind the taste but thinking about the batteries, I don't want to eat them, sick animals that are disease ridden from the conditions they are kept in... Plus a free range chicken will at least taste of something, not like a slab of unseasoned tofu, and I'm not ingesting the antibiotics the animal has been given because otherwise it would have died before slaughter time.

I don't get hunting as a sport, where's the sport to kill something that can't defend itself? If you want "sport" go and grab a knife and try to wrestle with a tiger or a lion, that's a challenge. Having an automatic rifle and sitting somewhere safe doesn't sound sporty to me, but I have more respect for real hunters who will skin and eat their prey, than for people who go to the super market and buy foie gras and then berate hunters for cruelty.
An animal that lived free possibly had more exercise and ate a lot healthier than an animal that was raised in a cubicle, if I'd like the taste of meat, I know what I would prefer to eat.

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Post #: 30

RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 1:57:08 PM

janiebelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

That reminds me of an episode of headlines on Jay Leno. The lady was indignant and horrified with hunters and wrote about shame on you and you're bullies and why don't you get your meat from the grocery store, where poor helpless animals were not hurt in the procuring of the meat.

Never underestimate the stupidity of the average American.
However, this broad ain't alone. Kids think hamburgers come from McDonald's; not cattle.
I've heard kids say "I'm a vegetarian, but I eat chicken and fish."
Parents should be ashamed sometimes.
j

(in reply to YourhandMyAss)

Post #: 31

RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 2:05:43 PM

janiebelle

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Joined: 4/29/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

She possibly meant well and thought animals that are raised to be slaughtered have a better life, nothing could be further from the truth, pigs and often cows are raised really in meat factories, they never see the light of day, have little room to move...

Not liking meat is not a question of ethics for me, but I still would draw the line between the unhealthy meat and possibly take into consideration the suffering of the animal too, let it at least have a semi-normal life, it's less cruel and more healthy. I actually like chicken meat, well, I don't mind the taste but thinking about the batteries, I don't want to eat them, sick animals that are disease ridden from the conditions they are kept in... Plus a free range chicken will at least taste of something, not like a slab of unseasoned tofu, and I'm not ingesting the antibiotics the animal has been given because otherwise it would have died before slaughter time.

I don't get hunting as a sport, where's the sport to kill something that can't defend itself? If you want "sport" go and grab a knife and try to wrestle with a tiger or a lion, that's a challenge. Having an automatic rifle and sitting somewhere safe doesn't sound sporty to me, but I have more respect for real hunters who will skin and eat their prey, than for people who go to the super market and buy foie gras and then berate hunters for cruelty.
An animal that lived free possibly had more exercise and ate a lot healthier than an animal that was raised in a cubicle, if I'd like the taste of meat, I know what I would prefer to eat.

Couple of points:
Hogs are often raised indoors in "factory farm" condition. Cattle, not so, feedlots are outside due to size issues.
"Free Range Chicken" is a marketing gimick in the US. It does not mean, organic, sans hormones, or anything like that. Only requirement is that the animals are allowed "access" to the "outdoors" for some part of the day. If you want a truly organic, free range chicken, it better come from your yard.
Hunting (deer) is not a "sport" to those that take it seriously. It is a matter of evnironmental and herd management, as well as putting venison in the freezer. As for the guys sitting in freezing water waiting for a duck to fly by- I have NO flippin' idea what they are doing.
Wild game is a lean, healthful, plentiful souce of protein that is far underutilized in this country.
j

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 32

RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 2:11:14 PM

LadyConstanze

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In quite a lot of European countries you have cattle indoors, small cubicles, etc.

The free range chicken means something different in every country I noticed, in some they have to be able to run free, food and nutrition requirements, etc.

I know a lot of people who will pay the game keeper just to shoot an animal, all they want are the antlers to mount them on their walls and they pay a lot of money for that, I can't see the sport in that at all. Then living in the UK, there are hunts (thank heavens they put a damper on the fox hunts), bird hunts, etc. The issue is not meat, the issue is to kill animals as a sport and I really really can't get my head around that. What's so great about killing something if you aren't even using the meat?

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 2:17:47 PM

sophia37

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Human shrinkage since the 1950's? I wonder what you mean by that. I looked up height loss and could find nothing. Then someone wrote about weight loss. Can you explain what you mean by there's human shrinkage since the 1950's?

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Post #: 34

RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 2:27:52 PM

sirsholly

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quote:

Oreos are a vegetarian food.

i lubs you

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 2:29:39 PM

slaveboyforyou

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FR:

The vegans and vegetarians I meet are the ones that usually extol the benefits of organic foods, which is fine. I just find them similar to Christian fundamentalists that refuse to accept science is good for us. Genetic crop engineering, chemical pesticides, chemical fertilizers, etc. have saved hundreds of millions of people in the past 100 years. Because of all this evil non-organic stuff we do in farming we no longer are at the mercy of swarms of insects devouring all of our food. Our food grows better and more plentiful because of all this evil, scientific mumbo-jumbo. Mainstream agricultural science see no ill health effects from the things we do to improve our food production. If you want to have world-wide famines and see millions and millions of people die, than keep screaming for organic. I remember a few years ago a shipment of American corn being turned away from the border of an African country that had millions of its own people dying from starvation.....the reason, the government had been hood-winked by these pseudo-science fucktards into believing that genetically modified food was poisonous. It's insane, and it shares the same level of insanity with those that refuse to accept evolution.

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Post #: 36

RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 2:36:57 PM

LadyConstanze

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Sure, science is nothing but good, pesticides are healthy, something that will kill insects can't possibly do harm to humans...

Look, why do more and more people have serious food allergies? Mainstream agricultural science sees no ill effects, and they wouldn't have a lobby, would they? Like the pharmaceutical industry has no lobby and nobody ever will get addicted to harmless little painkillers.

Personally I rather eat an apple that doesn't look all perfect but also not full of pesticides, you can eat whatever you like, it's your health.

And before you label me as a hardcore vegetarian, I'm had smoked trout today for lunch, it was rather delicious!

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Post #: 37

RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 2:46:29 PM

samboct

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Sophia

I checked the article and there's no reference on declining height since the 1950s. However, I did find this article in the Washington Post which points out that Europeans are now taller than Americans, and that US children have been holding at the same height since the 1950s.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/12/AR2007081200809.html

"Most of the land in the Middle Ages was owned by an overlord, they didn't care much if their people died early, contraceptives were not an option, the poor had large families, it was easy to replace a serf."

Umm- no. While its true that the peasants ran around largely naked, drank a lot of beer (water wasn't potable) and certainly died relatively young, this isn't to say that they weren't valuable. Farming is something that has to be taught, and if all your farmers drop dead, your land is unproductive. Nor could you readily import people from the cities- they didn't know how to farm. That people living on the farms were healthier than those that lived in the cities underscores the importance of farmers- they were well fed compared to the poor in the city. (They were several inches taller.) Economics hasn't changed that much since the middle ages. Families had a lot of children due to infant mortality- but the number that reached adulthood was far fewer. How fast did the population grow from the Middle Ages to the 1800s?

Sam

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Post #: 38

RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 2:49:36 PM

slaveboyforyou

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Why do we not have swarms of locusts blotting out the sun as they devour the winter food supply anymore? Why do we not have decade long dust storms anymore? Why do we not have famines that span entire continents anymore? Science. Pesticides are a good thing, fertilizers are a good thing. Back to earth, hemp wearing, neo-hippies don't have lobbies? They don't shout loudly and encourage third world countries to turn away from science that would save their starving people? Like I said, organic farming proponents have a lot in common with evolution denying Christian fundamentalists. We would not have enough food for everyone if we didn't use chemicals, genetic modifications, etc in agricultural. It's a fact, and it's an inescapable one.

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Post #: 39

RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 2:59:58 PM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Why do we not have swarms of locusts blotting out the sun as they devour the winter food supply anymore? Why do we not have decade long dust storms anymore? Why do we not have famines that span entire continents anymore? Science. Pesticides are a good thing, fertilizers are a good thing. Back to earth, hemp wearing, neo-hippies don't have lobbies? They don't shout loudly and encourage third world countries to turn away from science that would save their starving people? Like I said, organic farming proponents have a lot in common with evolution denying Christian fundamentalists. We would not have enough food for everyone if we didn't use chemicals, genetic modifications, etc in agricultural. It's a fact, and it's an inescapable one.

Uhm yeah, whatever you say, still didn't answer my question where the food allergies come from... The pesticides we ingest with our food have actually no ill effects on our health? Pesticides are such a blessing, you tell that the veterans suffering from Agent Orange, I'm sure they'll agree with you.

Darling, I'm everything but a hippie and if anybody here acts like a an "evolution denying Christian fundamentalists" is you, but whatever rocks your world, I prefer to stay healthy and that means eating healthy food. Enjoy your pesticides and your fertilizer, and don't do any research...

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