LadyConstanze
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quote:
ORIGINAL: samboct
This is where science debunks myth. Your myth is that since there is a phrase referring to gout as a rich man's disease, that all rich people at the time were ill. However, the science is showing that the rich people during the middle ages were less sick than the poor folks. Rich folks, eating a diet with more meat in it, were healthier than the poor folks. You can't throw the data away because you disagree with what it's showing. In science we call that data falsification and people get in trouble for it. Yes, there may have been a few people who gorged themselves on meat and got sick because of that. But focusing on these few obscures the real picture here.
Let me debunk this myth, you assume that the people were healthier because they ate more meat, not taking into consideration that their living conditions were better, for example they didn't have to eat bread that had gone mouldy, could afford fresh vegetables, etc., the poor had to eat what they will find, their nutrition was in GENERAL better, you know it also counts as data falsifications to leave aspects out and it absolutely obscures the picture. You know they didn't just eat meat.
As for gout, most medical experts agree that most cases are due to life-style choices we make, too much booze, a diet that is too rich, high levels of fat and cholesterol in the blood. There are a lot of historic texts about rulers suffering from gout, it was almost unknown to the general population, so that would be strong evidence that it had to do something with the diet of the upper classes.
Seriously, what you are arguing here is not science, you pick certain aspects of science and only accept what fits into the solution you have already drawn for yourself, aka lots and lots of meat is good for you, that's pseudo-science, that's like going into a starvation area, checking people's cholesterol and assuming because that is OK, they must be healthy. Would I have presented my professors with something like "Well, I decided that since the Norman the conquerer invaded England in 1066, all influences on the language are due to that" - there are a lot of influences, but additionally a lot of other nations invaded, he would have tossed my thesis out and told me to look at the whole picture and take everything into consideration.
Now if you care to just search for research on vegetarian diets
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Vegetarian_eating?OpenDocument
Or the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine
http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/vegetarian_foods.html
"Vegetarian diets—naturally low in saturated fat, high in fiber, and replete with cancer-protective phytochemicals—help to prevent cancer. Large studies in England and Germany have shown that vegetarians are about 40 percent less likely to develop cancer compared to meat-eaters.1-3 In the United States, studies of Seventh-Day Adventists have shown significant reductions in cancer risk among those who avoided meat.4,5 Similarly, breast cancer rates are dramatically lower in nations, such as China, that follow plant-based diets.6 Interestingly, Japanese women who follow Western-style, meat-based diets are eight times more likely to develop breast cancer than women who follow a more traditional plant-based diet.7 Meat and dairy products contribute to many forms of cancer, including cancer of the colon, breast, ovaries, and prostate.
Harvard studies that included tens of thousands of women and men have shown that regular meat consumption increases colon cancer risk by roughly 300 percent.8,9 High-fat diets also encourage the body’s production of estrogens, in particular, estradiol. Increased levels of this sex hormone have been linked to breast cancer. A recent report noted that the rate of breast cancer among premenopausal women who ate the most animal (but not vegetable) fat was one-third higher than that of women who ate the least animal fat.10 A separate study from Cambridge University also linked diets high in saturated fat to breast cancer.11 One study linked dairy products to an increased risk of ovarian cancer. The process of breaking down the lactose (milk sugar) into galactose evidently damages the ovaries.12 Daily meat consumption triples the risk of prostate enlargement. Regular milk consumption doubles the risk and failure to consume vegetables regularly nearly quadruples the risk.13
Vegetarians avoid the animal fat linked to cancer and get abundant fiber, vitamins, and phytochemicals that help to prevent cancer. In addition, blood analysis of vegetarians reveals a higher level of “natural killer cells,” specialized white blood cells that attack cancer cells.14
Beating Heart Disease
Vegetarian diets also help prevent heart disease. Animal products are the main source of saturated fat and the only source of cholesterol in the diet. Vegetarians avoid these risky products. Additionally, fiber helps reduce cholesterol levels15 and animal products contain no fiber. When individuals switch to a high-fiber, low-fat diet their serum cholesterol levels often drop dramatically.16,17 Studies have demonstrated that a low-fat, high-fiber, vegetarian or vegan diet combined with stress reduction techniques, smoking cessation, and exercise, or combined with prudent drug intervention, could actually reverse atherosclerosis—hardening of the arteries.18,19 Heart diets that include lean meat, dairy products, and chicken are much less effective, usually only slowing the process of atherosclerosis.
Lowering Blood Pressure
In the early 1900s, nutritionists noted that people who ate no meat had lower blood pressure.20 They also discovered that vegetarian diets could, within two weeks, significantly reduce a person’s blood pressure.21 These results were evident regardless of the sodium levels in the vegetarian diets. People who follow vegetarian diets typically have lower blood pressure.22-24 No one knows exactly why vegetarian diets work so well, but probably cutting out meat, dairy products, and added fats reduces the blood’s viscosity (or “thickness”) which, in turn, brings down blood pressure.25 Plant products are generally lower in fat and sodium and have no cholesterol at all. Vegetables and fruits are also rich in potassium, which helps lower blood pressure."
You now, somehow that doesn't sound terribly unhealthy to me!
Now you are talking that omnivores are more healthy and vegetarians are unhealthy, current scientific data would dispute that fact.
As I said, I have no agenda to turn anybody into a vegetarian, I'm not even one myself, but I find it a bit irresponsible to claim that eating lots of meat is healthy, our life-styles are completely and utterly different than the life-style of 3000 years ago, how many people back then did spend most of their time in an office without much physical exercise? If you would take one of their babies into our time and would raise it on our diet and with our life-style, I'm positive that it would have the same health issues we are having today.
Look, my partner is a lot taller than I am, exercises a hell lot more than I do and has weight issues, he actually eats less but he does eat different food, he likes meat and would have it 3 times a day would it not be a health concern, he lies fry ups, he has to rein himself in to not overeat. Me? I eat when I'm hungry, regularly 5 to 10 times a day, I eat what I feel like eating because I believe my body is healthy and naturally tells me what it needs because I didn't dampen all my natural reactions with tons of sugar and additives.
I can only repeat, putting it down to "meat eaters healthy" or "vegetarians unhealthy" is rubbish and highly unscientific, the clue is to have a balanced diet, get the right amount of proteins, carbs, the right fats (preferable unsaturated) and enough vitamins and then pick and eat what you like, be it vegetarian or meaty, as long as the nutritional balance is right, it doesn't matter. If your diet is too one-sided and is lacking an essential element while being too heavy on another element, your body has problems processing it. I think of my metabolism as a highly efficient motor, you give the motor what it needs, you wouldn't put diesel in a petrol engine or the other way round and expect no problems?
Simply take into account the fact that your diet should give you what you require according to your exercise and living conditions, and those have changed a lot over the past few hundred or thousands of years. An athlete will eat a lot more than a couch potato without gaining weight or having health issues. A hunter and gatherer who was basically on the move all the time would use more energy, exercise his muscles more, burn more energy, be more muscular and therefore would require more protein - for how many of us does that ring true? If you feed your regular worker with the diet the hunter and gatherer ate, I'm almost willing to bet that there would be health issues due to too much protein.
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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 
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