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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 3:01:14 PM   
DavanKael


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OP, your conclusions are flawed.  You're trying to generalize research from skeletal remains from several hundred to several thousand years ago and that just does not make sense.  There are any number of other factors you fail to take into consideration. 
Of course we should have a well-rounded diet.  Of course that is possible whether or not one eats meat. 
For the record, I am a vegetarian and have been for over 20 years.  I'm no health nut, not by a long-stretch but, you know what, I'm hearty.  I also don't try to convert people; if someone wants to eat meat, that's their option.  I choose not to exercise that option.  As a counter-point to your 'vegetarianism is bad for you' theory, I can give you an example of one doctor's statement to me that demonstrates at least one way in which my health has been improved by being a veggie.  My gallbladder is wonky.  Every once in awhile, it acts up badly.  Doctors would like to take it out.  I have not allowed this.  I had one doctor tell me directly that were I not a vegetarian, it would have had to have come out years ago as meat would have exacerbated the issue beyond tennability. 
Again, you're trying to generalize data from old bones to modern day and it just doesn't overlay cleanly. 
What's your beef with veggies anyway? 
  Davan

(And, DMT, I went 'cold turkey' on meat and suffered no effects of my body reacting poorly as you note some have.  Some people are more naturally hearty than others.  I've seen some people get sick from becoming veggies as have I seen some people whose digestive systems react very, very poorly to, for example, the richness and fattiness of red meat) 

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 3:08:36 PM   
DavanKael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: janiebelle

Never underestimate the stupidity of the average American.
I've heard kids say "I'm a vegetarian, but I eat chicken and fish."



I've heard grown-ups say this and stuff like it (One of my favorites: I'm vegetarian but I eat pepperoni...WTF?!) and I do then educate them about the term vegetarian.  It's amazing what something becoming trendy will do to people trying to claim it. 
  Davan

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 3:11:38 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

I've seen some people get sick from becoming veggies as have I seen some people whose digestive systems react very, very poorly to, for example, the richness and fattiness of red meat) 


Raises hand... Just not right for my system, I tried it several times in the past few years, usually to not offend people when I was invited to dinner parties and apart from really having to force it down, afterwards always suffered from serious indigestion and felt like I had a hangover (headache, sluggish, all that), now I simply get sick (as in my stomach refuses to keep it down). I actually let people know when I am invited anywhere and tell them not to bother with special food, I'll happily eat the veg and they only need to get a steak less, never been an issue.

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 3:18:30 PM   
darklight17


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Yes, Americans are smaller because of their huge vegetarian population...I guess that is why the vegetarian section in most grocery stores is one little 3-4 foot bay in comparison to the BACK WALL MEAT SECTION.

Come on, this is ridiculous. Maybe our more sedentary lifestyle has everything to do with this.

A lot of diets can be unhealthy if they aren't well rounded. What do vegetarians have a problem with? Iron? Calcium? Most people probably need to supplement something anyway!

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 3:25:11 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

Uhm yeah, whatever you say, still didn't answer my question where the food allergies come from... The pesticides we ingest with our food have actually no ill effects on our health? Pesticides are such a blessing, you tell that the veterans suffering from Agent Orange, I'm sure they'll agree with you


You don't think people had food allergies prior to modern agriculture? Who told you that? Some pesticides can be detrimental to human health, but we can't grow the amount of food we do without them. We could not feed the world without them, it would cause massive starvation on a worldwide scale. We certainly have to be cautious with chemicals in food production, but we can't just go back to a plant and pray type of farming. Agent Orange wasn't a pesticide, it was a herbicide and defoliant. It wasn't sprayed on food, and it contained a dixoin which aren't typically found in agricultural pesticides. Most veterans didn't suffer any effects from exposure, my father is one of them. He served 3 years there as an infantry officer.

quote:

I prefer to stay healthy and that means eating healthy food. Enjoy your pesticides and your fertilizer, and don't do any research...


I do my research, I assure you. I don't rely on pseudo-science that would harm the entire world if it were taken seriously. Organic farming vs. modern agriculture ranks right up there with holistic healing vs. modern medicine. Modern medicine and modern agriculture are based on real science, the other two are not. Modern medicine and modern medicine have lenghtened our life spans and saved hundred of millions of people from disease and starvation. The other two have been done before, and they relied on chance.

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 3:32:21 PM   
YourhandMyAss


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Yeah that was a huge force behind the prop about not having chickens put in pens and raised in chicken farms. My dad said the ones who wanted them to be free range were just bleeding hearts and was very derisive about the whole thing, but if you actually look at it objectively how much healthier would the chickens be if they were not crammed into a cage one on top of the other cage mates. Now not all chicken places are like that but a lot are, and it's very unhealthy for the workers too, because all the shit and feather dust and stuff floating through the air from cages and cages and cages of chickens pooping all day.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze




She possibly meant well and thought animals that are raised to be slaughtered have a better life, nothing could be further from the truth, pigs and often cows are raised really in meat factories, they never see the light of day, have little room to move...

Not liking meat is not a question of ethics for me, but I still would draw the line between the unhealthy meat and possibly take into consideration the suffering of the animal too, let it at least have a semi-normal life, it's less cruel and more healthy. I actually like chicken meat, well, I don't mind the taste but thinking about the batteries, I don't want to eat them, sick animals that are disease ridden from the conditions they are kept in... Plus a free range chicken will at least taste of something, not like a slab of unseasoned tofu, and I'm not ingesting the antibiotics the animal has been given because otherwise it would have died before slaughter time.


An animal that lived free possibly had more exercise and ate a lot healthier than an animal that was raised in a cubicle, if I'd like the taste of meat, I know what I would prefer to eat.

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 3:37:10 PM   
DavanKael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Raises hand... Just not right for my system, I tried it several times in the past few years, usually to not offend people when I was invited to dinner parties and apart from really having to force it down, afterwards always suffered from serious indigestion and felt like I had a hangover (headache, sluggish, all that), now I simply get sick (as in my stomach refuses to keep it down). I actually let people know when I am invited anywhere and tell them not to bother with special food, I'll happily eat the veg and they only need to get a steak less, never been an issue.


You and my sis both have similar issues with meat.  It definitely seems as if you have a sensitivity that makes it so that avoiding it would seem to improve the quality of your life. 
People in our society often forget, too, that the 10 oz steaks they're serving are actually several servings' worth of meat.  The standard gluttony is rather amazing. 
Like you, I tell people there's no need to make special stuff for me; I can always find something. 
  Davan 

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 3:39:24 PM   
DavanKael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darklight17

Yes, Americans are smaller because of their huge vegetarian population...I guess that is why the vegetarian section in most grocery stores is one little 3-4 foot bay in comparison to the BACK WALL MEAT SECTION.

Come on, this is ridiculous. Maybe our more sedentary lifestyle has everything to do with this.

A lot of diets can be unhealthy if they aren't well rounded. What do vegetarians have a problem with? Iron? Calcium? Most people probably need to supplement something anyway!


I'm a vegatarian.  I eat junk a lot of times.  I'll admit it. 
'Course, your argument about the huge meat section versus the tiny vegetarian section is non-sensical: but for the meat section, the entire rest of the store is the vegetarian section!   :> 
  Davan

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 3:46:52 PM   
YourhandMyAss


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My mom came to the table today with an add for special vitamins promising the benefits equal of eating 25 different fruits and vegetables and offering minerals and iron and stuff,  and she says I want to order these, they could help me with my health/  arthritis problems, and it sparked off an interesting discussion with my dad and I about the concepts of how many people expect pills to do it all for them, when if you ate right, and exercised and took better care of yourself, most of the things the pills promise could be gotten from goodf ood.

She absolutely refuses to eat right, refuses to exercise, and then expects some vitamin to do miricals.

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 3:47:07 PM   
samboct


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"OP, your conclusions are flawed.  You're trying to generalize research from skeletal remains from several hundred to several thousand years ago and that just does not make sense.  There are any number of other factors you fail to take into consideration. "

Au contraire mon frere.  The skeletal remains are an excellent proxy for the examination of human health, otherwise we would know very little about other cultures that lived before us.

I will not disagree with the point that in theory- a well rounded vegetarian diet is as healthful as an omnivore diet.  However, the skeletons are telling us that in practice- omnivores were healthier- because they ate a larger variety of foods.  You're arguing with data that doesn't fit your conclusions.

Slaveboy- I suggest you read Dame Callas post earlier in this thread carefully.  While I don't disagree that pesticides have greatly increased food production, so has genetics- which in some cases removes the need for pesticides by giving plants resistance to various blights.  Dame Calla's point that while we are indeed living longer, we're also living sicker is quite thought provoking.

Also note that something is indeed up- science has no good explanation for the dramatic rise in food allergies- especially severe allergies that we're seeing these days in kids.  Some type of environmental toxin might be to blame.


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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 3:53:19 PM   
LadyConstanze


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slaveboyforyou, you do whatever you like, but it doesn't sound that you do your research very thorough, though you might actually want to check that modern medicine more and more incorporates the holistic approach and doesn't rely on treating just the symptoms

Also in a lot of countries we produce more food than we consume, then said food gets destroyed, makes a hell lot of sense, doesn't it? A good reason to use more fertilizers and pesticides, some of them sicker into the ground and get into the water supply, again we ingest it. Insects get resistant, so we spray more stuff and stronger stuff, unfortunately not all humans are so adaptable.

I don't know where you do your research, but I'm missing the science element in it and some facts, I only see the typical approach you claim only the super right winged Christians have...

Btw if you would have done your research, you might have found a dramatic increase in food allergies over the past 50 years.

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 4:38:32 PM   
DavanKael


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I correctly stated:  "OP, your conclusions are flawed.  You're trying to generalize research from skeletal remains from several hundred to several thousand years ago and that just does not make sense.  There are any number of other factors you fail to take into consideration. "

OP erroneously replied:  Au contraire mon frere.  The skeletal remains are an excellent proxy for the examination of human health, otherwise we would know very little about other cultures that lived before us.

I will not disagree with the point that in theory- a well rounded vegetarian diet is as healthful as an omnivore diet.  However, the skeletons are telling us that in practice- omnivores were healthier- because they ate a larger variety of foods.  You're arguing with data that doesn't fit your conclusions.

I endeavor to offer the OP further clarification:  Okay, I was not going to break it down for you because I was giving you credit for understanding why the eras are different but let me give you just a few examples of things different from several hundred to thousand yers ago compared to now that would also have an impact (In addition to just straight-up diet of the corpse in question): 
**We have waaaaay better pre-natal care now than then
**We have immunizations for diseases that could impact the systems negatively on an on-going basis (And affect skeletal remains)
**We have better health care
**We have improved environmental conditions (Ie: within out domiciles, I mean)
**We have improved dental care (Which can have all sorts of health benefits)
Any number of these things could skew your intended overlay as could any number of other details.  You're discussing disparate things. 
Also, and most importantly, you assume that the shift to agrarian living equates to vegetarianism and it does not: farming involves all sorts of animals and agrarian groups did kill and consume meat (Either by hunting wildlife or by slaughtering kept animals).  Agrarian isn't vegetarian. 
So, I don't think you  refuted my argument but you're welcome to try again, if you'd like. 
  Davan

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 4:44:07 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

Also in a lot of countries we produce more food than we consume, then said food gets destroyed, makes a hell lot of sense, doesn't it? A good reason to use more fertilizers and pesticides, some of them sicker into the ground and get into the water supply, again we ingest it. Insects get resistant, so we spray more stuff and stronger stuff, unfortunately not all humans are so adaptable.


I need to do research? You obviously didn't grow up in a rural area, because you don't know that much about farming. We do produce more food than we consume; it's exported for sale. The entire point of commercial farming is to make a profit. You can't raise enough food for the world without using modern methods.....it's CAN'T be done. Over 6 billion people live on this planet, and our population is increasing more and more every year. Very little of the Earth's surface is suitable for agriculture, and we are losing more and more of those areas because of urbanization. Luckily, we don't need as much land in modern times to grow crops, and that is because of modern agriculture.

We have small, local farmers that grow organic and sell in the farmer's markets around here. I buy stuff from them, but there is simply things you can't get here without buying from a supermarket, and that stuff isn't organic. I guarantee you that you'd have an extremely limited selection in the UK if you had to rely solely on organic foods.

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 5:53:43 PM   
janiebelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

In quite a lot of European countries you have cattle indoors, small cubicles, etc.

The free range chicken means something different in every country I noticed, in some they have to be able to run free, food and nutrition requirements, etc.

I know a lot of people who will pay the game keeper just to shoot an animal, all they want are the antlers to mount them on their walls and they pay a lot of money for that, I can't see the sport in that at all. Then living in the UK, there are hunts (thank heavens they put a damper on the fox hunts), bird hunts, etc. The issue is not meat, the issue is to kill animals as a sport and I really really can't get my head around that. What's so great about killing something if you aren't even using the meat?


I do remember seeing small farms in the Netherlands with cattle stictly shed kept, but they were dairy animals.
As for the hunt, it is very different here.  Deer are like vermin- the herd must be thinned by hunters or the animals will die of starvation and disease.
j

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 5:59:02 PM   
janiebelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Why do we not have swarms of locusts blotting out the sun as they devour the winter food supply anymore? Why do we not have decade long dust storms anymore? Why do we not have famines that span entire continents anymore? Science. Pesticides are a good thing, fertilizers are a good thing. Back to earth, hemp wearing, neo-hippies don't have lobbies? They don't shout loudly and encourage third world countries to turn away from science that would save their starving people? Like I said, organic farming proponents have a lot in common with evolution denying Christian fundamentalists. We would not have enough food for everyone if we didn't use chemicals, genetic modifications, etc in agricultural. It's a fact, and it's an inescapable one.


While I understand the benefits of modern farm tech, I must also recognize that there is a parallel need for "back to basics" small operations that keep hierloom breeds of crops and livestock.  Without these folks, there would be no "going back" when hybrids need change, or in the event of a serious disaster that brought more people back to their agrarian lives.
j

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 6:02:35 PM   
janiebelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


Pesticides are such a blessing, you tell that the veterans suffering from Agent Orange, I'm sure they'll agree with you.



Wasn't Agent Orange an herbicide?
j

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 6:56:33 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: janiebelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


Pesticides are such a blessing, you tell that the veterans suffering from Agent Orange, I'm sure they'll agree with you.



Wasn't Agent Orange an herbicide?
j


Yes, sorry about that, English is my 3rd language so sometimes I might be a bit confused, but I recall reading in reports that it was declared as harmless for humans, though quite a lot of people exposed to it developed cancer and birth defects were frequent in their offspring, so I would assume it must have had a fairly deep impact on the system if sperm is changed even years later. Science was clearly wrong when they said it has no lasting effects.

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 7:35:11 PM   
samboct


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"I endeavor to offer the OP further clarification:  Okay, I was not going to break it down for you because I was giving you credit for understanding why the eras are different but let me give you just a few examples of things different from several hundred to thousand yers ago compared to now that would also have an impact (In addition to just straight-up diet of the corpse in question): 
**We have waaaaay better pre-natal care now than then
**We have immunizations for diseases that could impact the systems negatively on an on-going basis (And affect skeletal remains)
**We have better health care
**We have improved environmental conditions (Ie: within out domiciles, I mean)
**We have improved dental care (Which can have all sorts of health benefits)
Any number of these things could skew your intended overlay as could any number of other details.  You're discussing disparate things. 
Also, and most importantly, you assume that the shift to agrarian living equates to vegetarianism and it does not: farming involves all sorts of animals and agrarian groups did kill and consume meat (Either by hunting wildlife or by slaughtering kept animals).  Agrarian isn't vegetarian." 


Well, given the level of scientific discourse that's been the standard in politics for a number of years, I'm not surprised that you think that you've got a valid point.  However- let's look at things a bit more rigorously.

Hypothesis- Vegetarianism is less healthful than an omnivore diet in large populations.  (For a hypothesis- could be the other way around as well- doesn't matter.)

Theory: Human diets have changed over the past several thousand years with various consequences on health effects.  By correlating changes in human diet with health effects, we can correlate whether one type of diet is healthier for a given population.

Methodology- human diseases such as tuberculosis, ricketts, scurvy, and bone infections can be measured using various signals seen in human bony tissue even after several thousand years. A statistically large enough to be representative for the time frame of the experiment approx. 900 BCE to 1800 CE has been collected to evaluate health of the overall population.  Using historical records of habitation and isotopic analysis of skeletons (animal proteins have different isotopic signatures than grains as well as being able to determine whether or not the grain had been stored for a long period of time) , the various foodstuffs that made up the human diet through this time period can be determined.

If you want it simplified here it is-

1)  We have enough data points for sound statistics.
2)  We can evaluate human health using skeletal remains.
3)  We can figure out diet from historical records, isotopic analysis, and other archeological techniques.

Results: Based on analysis of skeletal remains from 1900 BCE to 1800 CE we have shown that skeletons from the earlier time period (hunter gatherers) have lower rates of illness and tooth decay, however, the skeletons show more evidence of bone breaks than later time periods.  Analysis of the skeletons from 1000 CE to 1800 CE show two major population types.  Humans that lived in agrarian surroundings were healthier and better nourished and showed less disease compared to humans that lived in cities, however, both of these populations showed greater rates of various illnesses including tuberculosis and leprosy (ailments common to living in close proximity to livestock) when compared to humans from an earlier age.

Conclusions- humans got sicker as they transitioned from hunter gatherers to a more agrarian existance.  Concurrent with this transition, human diet also changed from having significant caloric uptake from animal protein to grains.  While there are well known illnesses such as tuberculosis associated with domesticated livestock, there are additional ailments such as dental hypoplasias and cavities which are a function of grain based diets with fewer nutrients and more sugars.  Shrinking human stature observed during this time period is also a function of humans consuming less nutritious foods and reduced caloric intake. 

let's look at your objections-

1) We have waaaaay better pre-natal care now than then.  Not relevant to the time period in question.  Also, unless prenatal care improved or diminished during the time period, the net effect would be to reduce infant mortality - but what effect does this have on juvenile/adult diseases?
2) We have immunizations for diseases that could impact the systems negatively on an on-going basis (And affect skeletal remains)  Our immunizations can compromise skeletal remains from several hundred to several thousand years ago?  I'd have to see a reference on that one- after I stop laughing.  Again, how do modern immunizations affect the data from the period in question?  Or is your hypothesis that the diseases caused by vegetarianism can now be eliminated, thus reducing the risk of a vegetarian diet?
3)  We have better health care  Again- are you postulating that health care improved over the course of the experiment?  I think most of the diseases mentioned were either unknown during the hunter gatherer period or had no effective treatment.  Unless your postulating that health care was better 3000 years ago than 200 years ago?  I have no idea how modern health care affects the findings here. 
4)  We have improved environmental conditions (Ie: within out domiciles, I mean) Not shown by the data.  A number of the diseases shown by the skeletons are a function of humans living in close proximity to livestock and in contact with waste matter.  Hunter gatherers do not have these diseases and therefore lived in a healthier environment.  Modern day humans have a variety of illnesses ranging from diabetes to cancer that have a high likelihood of being traced to the current environmental conditions that we live in.  See Dame Calla's post.
5)  We have improved dental care (Which can have all sorts of health benefits)  And again- hunter gatherers would have no need of our improved dental care- since their diet was healthier, their teeth stayed with them through their life with few ailments.  We need modern day dentistry as a function of our diet which probably contains too many grains and sugars. 
 
Strikes me that you have a conclusion and you've tossed out the data because it doesn't fit your preconceived ideas.  My comment is that if we really knew what a good human diet was/is- we'd probably eliminate a lot of diseases.  However, I see very little evidence that we've come up with anything that really fits the facts.  I wouldn't be surprised if the food pyramid of the FDA is wrong and that we need more lean animal protein and fewer grains.  Something closer to <gulp> the Adkins diet.  Gack- I can't believe that- I know that diet is awful for people.  But maybe there was a "grain" of truth in it.  OK- I'm ducking and running again....
 
 
Sam


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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 7:47:06 PM   
samboct


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Lady C

About Agent Orange- It is a herbicide and a defoliant and has relatively little effect on humans.  (most chemical compounds don't do much to humans- the percentage of really nasty things is less than 10% of all synthetic compounds.)  However, the production process of Agent Orange was not carefully controlled with the increased demands of the Viet Nam war, and during scale up, some byproducts,- I think the primary one was 2,4, TCDD -a dioxin- was produced in some batches of Agent Orange.  Most dioxins aren't harmful- but there are a few that are both very stable and putative human carcinogens as well as being rather toxic causing ailments such as chloracne and this is one of the nasty ones.  Forgive me if I misremember some of this- I'm 20 plus years rusty.  Thus, a pure Agent Orange had little effect on the vets that handled the stuff, while the contaminated batches lead to some long term severe ailments which the Army tried to cover up.  The record keeping in Viet Nam was so chaotic it was very difficult to determine which soldiers might have been exposed to the contaminated herbicide.  This country uses some extravagant language to help the armed services maintain their quotas and often falls down badly when actually writing a check to pay for veterans care.

Sam

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RE: The health effects of vegetarianism... - 5/14/2009 8:27:06 PM   
LadyConstanze


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You know a hell lot more about it than I do, I basically just stumbled over a few articles in library, a few guys who tried to get compensation, doctor's reports, etc.

But regarding some points you made above...

1) Pre-natal care would be relevant because it also leads to mortality in women and women dying in childbed, childbed-fever and such was a common cause of death, so it might account for a fair share of early deaths in women (remember that it was not unusual for men to have been widowed several times because the wife died while giving birth or after)

3) Better healthcare also means better monitoring, in a time when the solution for any illness was "Bleed them" and only the very wealthy could afford doctors, what were the chances that somebody got sound nutritional advice from a doctor or a doctor said "Oh, you're suffering from anemia, you need to have more iron..."
Actually I would agree that health care possibly was better in say ancient Greece than it was in the Middle Ages, the church made sure a lot of great medical works were burned because those heathens tried to heal when god alone decides who's to live and who's to die.

4) Alright, but how likely are you to find the bones of hunters and gatherers that died very young because they were killed by wild animals? Hunting was quite high risk.

5) Uhhhh their life-span was considerably shorter, life expectancy has risen dramatically over the last few centuries, hunters and gatherers usually didn't get to be very old (no medical care, an appendix was certain death, being gored by a wild boar was death, freezing to death in winter, a broken bone was most likely to leave you crippled and die earlier...) it's easier to have a full set of teeth with 20 or 30 than with 70 or 80. If you want to look at teeth I would say look at the Middle Ages, most rulers who had lots of meat had gout (I believe they called that rich man's disease) and were missing most of their teeth because they were also the ones who could afford to eat lots of sugar. That's a bit like saying "Oh, people in Ethiopia hardly have high cholesterol levels, they must be all very healthy."

I think in general the poor people had a lousy diet and terrible living conditions, hygiene was not something the Middle Ages were known for, if you eat what you can get and not starving to death is a challenge, you don't give much thought to a balanced diet, that's a luxury you simply can't afford (apart from the fact that they possibly didn't know much about nutritional facts).

Another thought, people on farms possibly didn't eat that much more meat, most animals (apart from pigs) were kept for their by-products (milk, eggs, etc.) or as work animals, only when they stopped being of any other use, they were used for the pot, meat was a pricy luxury very few could afford on a regular basis.

So I would take the results of your research with a grain of salt ;)

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(in reply to samboct)
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