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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/16/2009 1:37:04 PM   
breatheasone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

The reason I don't do humiliation is that I do believe it. Doesn't matter if afterwards he says "ha ha, just kidding", I'm not going to believe the retraction. I will believe that this is how he sees me, in some way, and it hurts.

Beyond that, if he says later that he was lying, why should I believe that was the lie, and the nice stuff is the truth? If he can lie that easily, he could well be lying in the opposite. So if he does mean it, it distances us and destroys my self esteem. If he doesn't mean it, then he's a self proclaimed liar who I cannot trust to tell me the truth.

YEP!.... and double YEP!


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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/16/2009 2:04:21 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

For those of you who engage in verbal humiliation or degredation with a slave or sub, to what extent does this reflect your true feelings for that person? For example, do you mean it when saying "you are nothing to me but a cum receptacle or slave whore?" Or,doyou use phrases like this, etc., simply to trigger an emotional response?

I guess different strokes...I'm just now getting into verbal play, but as one with a "loving Dominant" style I am finding it not so easy.

What I'm going to say is just another way of saying what others on here have said:  I am into control.  Part of that control comes with uplifting my submissive partner while also reminding her that she is for my use and that her sexuality is controlled by me because I allow the expression of it.  That means they know that I LOVE their sexuality, their willingness to engage in twisted and nasty and hot things and that I have an appreciation for them helping me to get there as well as an appreciation for their enjoyment of the way I take them there but they also know that they submit and yield to me and my desires first. 
As I've stated in other posts regarding humiliation and degradation, each person has to define it as they will and each person has to know whether or not they will participate in one but not the other because one turns them off and the other does not.  In my world and in my dynamic, humiliation is anything that takes note of the submissive's sexuality, her sexual use by me, her own deep...perhaps hidden...craving for the act itself and uses that knowledge to make her hotter, wetter, embarassed and then wetter because of that embarassment and to make her feel appreciated for all the above.  E. G.:  tiinkerbell stated that she would find it complimentary to be referred to as a cum whore.  So, if I was doing a scene with tiinkerbell and have ascertained through prior conversation and observation that she is really turned on by the thought of being a cum whore, then while I am fucking her I am going to be growling to her that I know she is in need of cum, that if she continues to fuck me like the slut she is, she WILL get the cum...that I KNOW she'd love to have 4 or 5 guys fucking her so she could be soaked inside and out with cum because she's a good little cumwhore, then that is humiliation that I and tiinkerbell could appreciate.  It has built her up, it has turned her on, it has established a control of her sexuality.
But let's say tiinkerbell likes that but has body issues about being too tall or being too athletically built or whatever and I take that knowledge and put it together with something from down deep in such a tone that indicates that I don't appreciate her sexual nature...I just use it...and in fact, condemn her or look down on her for it even while using her.  E.G.  "No wonder you're such a cumwhore...you're built so much like a guy that you HAVE to be a cumwhore to keep a guy with you"  That's degradation.  It has made her feel small and cheap and only good for one thing with not much use in any other manner.

To condense my view of it:  Humiliation increases the submissive's feelings of self-worth, not just as a sexual person/partner to me as a dominant but to others.  Degradation decreases their feelings of self-worth as a sexual partner and, in most cases, as a person/partner...not just to me but to anyone.

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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/16/2009 2:15:55 PM   
Goddess2002


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Status: offline 		So, if I was doing a scene with tiinkerbell and have ascertained through prior conversation and observation that she is really turned on by the thought of being a cum whore, then while I am fucking her I am going to be growling to her that I know she is in need of cum, that if she continues to fuck me like the slut she is, she WILL get the cum...that I KNOW she'd love to have 4 or 5 guys fucking her so she could be soaked inside and out with cum because she's a good little cumwhore, then that is humiliation that I and tiinkerbell could appreciate.
 
Oh MY...well when you put it that way it makes me feel all warm and tingly inside!

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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/16/2009 4:53:05 PM   
Comrade


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Status: offline 		When insulting, humiliating, or punishing a slave, it is important to remember that you care for them.  You don't mean the things you say (sometimes).  The slave, however, must believe that you mean it.  If you say it while giggling, then you have failed.  This is especially important when punishing for misbehavior, I find.  If the slave does not take you seriously, then they will simply repeat whatever mistake or misdeed it was.  When my slaves misbehave, you had better believe that they fear for their lives.  I am not one to be crossed.  When humiliating them, I find it easy to put them in a position where I can see myself as them, and then determine what would make me feel the most insignificant.  That's where I go.

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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/16/2009 5:16:11 PM   
tiinkerbell


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quote:

Oh MY...well when you put it that way it makes me feel all warm and tingly inside!

LOL


And, as it was so nicely pointed out; there is a difference between humilation and degradation.
Humiliation is a turn on; degradation is a turn-off-bring-down-depressant

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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/16/2009 7:58:27 PM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

That means they know that I LOVE their sexuality, their willingness to engage in twisted and nasty and hot things and that I have an appreciation for them helping me to get there as well as an appreciation for their enjoyment of the way I take them there but they also know that they submit and yield to me and my desires first. 



This is one of those things I don't understand. I don't view my sexuality as twisted, nasty, dark, sick, evil or whatever. Perhaps you have to view it in that manner to enjoy this?

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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/16/2009 8:34:54 PM   
Jeptha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Delphinus

I think that the humiliation is true at that time. We are both able to compartmentalize and when we both fit into that box at the same time, the results are fantastic. ...

...He and I have a great relationship and my trust and comfort lies in that....

These points resonate with me.
It wouldn't do to say something that I absolutely *didn't* mean ~ that would be absurd, sorta... On some level the words reflect a real desire (tho the desire itself may reside forever in fantasy land), I feel.
Which is why the trust component is important to have in place.

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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/17/2009 11:24:57 AM   
TEMPERANCE


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

I guess different strokes...I'm just now getting into verbal play, but as one with a "loving Dominant" style I am finding it not so easy.



I only use verbal humiliation when Im in 'role', in which case yes I do mean it, and say it as if I do.  I think its important to remember generally you are not humiliating and degrading them every second of every day so they know deep down its part of the role play.  And when you're not in that mode you are also building them up so that  they know that you do really have feelings/care for them....  

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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/17/2009 11:39:20 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Oh god do I love humiliation and degredation play, very hot for me.  However, like a lot of bdsm stuff, it isn't what it appears to be.  I tend to idolize whomever I am with and I wouldn't be with someone who I didn't see as someone very special.

So for ME, it is somehow wrapped around two things, seeing someone special be willing to go to a dark place for me AND as seeing someone be hypersexual (cumslut, etc) who's desire to be that is directed at me, making me feel highly desired.

My goal (meaning, what I am shooting for, hit most of the time but miss others) and what I believe my partners are doing is sort of the mirror of that.  They spent a lifetime feeling guilty about wanting to be some dark thing (whore, slut, etc.) and feeling guilt and shame around that.  Here comes someone they love who WANT them to do that, who ADORES/NEEDS that from them, what a delicious thing to give back to a partner.  AND you still get that goey feeling inside when you are in that "bad" place.

Its like that old saying about "treat a lady like a whore and a whore like a lady".  I can humiliate someone in a way that is hot and makes them feel wonderful afterwards and I can do it in a way that leaves them feeling less than and hurts their self esteem.  I only seek to do the former and avoid doing the latter.

The BEST discussion of humiliation I know of is in Midori's book The Wild Side of Sex.

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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/18/2009 7:16:16 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

That means they know that I LOVE their sexuality, their willingness to engage in twisted and nasty and hot things and that I have an appreciation for them helping me to get there as well as an appreciation for their enjoyment of the way I take them there but they also know that they submit and yield to me and my desires first. 



This is one of those things I don't understand. I don't view my sexuality as twisted, nasty, dark, sick, evil or whatever. Perhaps you have to view it in that manner to enjoy this?
I guess I...and many others...do then.  When you consider that,  according to many religious texts, sex was to be seen mainly as a tool for procreation it becomes easy to see why for many in society sex for pleasure---even between husband and wife---was to be looked down upon.  We've come a long way since those times but even today, stop and think how many in society condemn sex for pleasure's sake.  Look at shows (C.S.I....Law & Order)written by writers who, even with a liberal/progressive bent, that take what we do and reflect a huge segment of society's view of BDSM/D-s practitioneers.  Hell, look at the double standard that still exists across much of society today about women who are too "loose".  Why not take that and play with it in a way designed to make your submissive feel better about herself and get her to look at the larger society's views more objectively while still being turned on that she is "tweaking" society by breaking rules in being who she is?

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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/18/2009 8:38:13 AM   
Andalusite


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
...If he can lie that easily, he could well be lying in the opposite. So if he does mean it, it distances us and destroys my self esteem. If he doesn't mean it, then he's a self proclaimed liar who I cannot trust to tell me the truth.


Exactly! This is the conflict I'm feeling...I find it difficult to humiliate someone I care for. I'm trying to delve deeper to understand the dynamic a bit more.


I have similar feelings, so I'm only open to verbal humiliation in an overtly role-play scene, preferably using a different name and some costuming to define the character. Here's something I posted about it before: http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2538936

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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/18/2009 8:57:43 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

The reason I don't do humiliation is that I do believe it. Doesn't matter if afterwards he says "ha ha, just kidding", I'm not going to believe the retraction. I will believe that this is how he sees me, in some way, and it hurts.

Beyond that, if he says later that he was lying, why should I believe that was the lie, and the nice stuff is the truth? If he can lie that easily, he could well be lying in the opposite. So if he does mean it, it distances us and destroys my self esteem. If he doesn't mean it, then he's a self proclaimed liar who I cannot trust to tell me the truth.


Exactly! This is the conflict I'm feeling...I find it difficult to humiliate someone I care for. I'm trying to delve deeper to understand the dynamic a bit more.


Some of us are wired vary differently than others.  I mean we have women here who like to hurt men, men who like to hurt women, women who like to hurt women, etc...so, some enjoy humiliation and others don't, but even among those of who who find it hot, there are huge variations on what and why.

A while back I was fucking this really hot chick and ended up sucking on the heel of her boot.  I did it because it made her hot and in no way was it humiliating to me, because I chose to do it.  However, that same scene might be turned into a hot humiliation scene for a male submissive to be told to clean her filthy heel that she wore when she walked though the cum covered floor of a porn viewing booth.  Now that part could be a complete lie that both just conviently believe for the fantasy of it, just as we all play with some fantasy or another.  Same act, very different emotional impact.

Calling a bright intelligent college girl a little girl while you fuck her isn't likely to work, mentally she is trying to stop being a girl and become a woman.  Telling someone older who is a woman that she is your sweet little girl takes her back to a place she wants to go.

I was trying to think of something humiliating that someone could do to me that would be hot but it isn't coming to me.  Being cuckholded leaves me cold although I have never had trouble with women having other lovers.  Being a sick fuck is hot for me now.  I might be able to do it around money AFTER I get back to wearing suits and had money.  Lets see, say we go out to dinner and she was to pay and mock me about being poor but I would have to take her back to my place which would have to be out of a this world cool to offset and "destroy" the mockery in a sense.  However, it would be very dangerious play emotionally. 

Its that whole thing around the difference between being "a slut" and "MY slut"...one is worthless, the other priceless.

The problem is that all people can be humiliated, but that is NOT the same as doing healthy humiliation play. 

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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/18/2009 7:31:10 PM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
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From: Portland, Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

That means they know that I LOVE their sexuality, their willingness to engage in twisted and nasty and hot things and that I have an appreciation for them helping me to get there as well as an appreciation for their enjoyment of the way I take them there but they also know that they submit and yield to me and my desires first.



This is one of those things I don't understand. I don't view my sexuality as twisted, nasty, dark, sick, evil or whatever. Perhaps you have to view it in that manner to enjoy this?
Sorta. I mean - you don't really believe that sex is twisted (adults boinking each other is really not that big a deal, after all), but I think humiliation can play upon and trade in old-fashioned puritanical notions of guilt and shame and repression.

At least, I think that's where a lot of it comes from for me. I was raised in a fairly sexually repressive time and place.

So, for instance, I will often use judgmental kinds of language that are right out of the ultra-conservative playbook. It's not that I believe it, but it does have its own sort of power. Maybe it's a little like the techniques of emotional manipulation that they use when they write the part of the bad guy in movies - they go for effect, and probably it's more accessing the emotional part of the brain than the rational part.


< Message edited by Jeptha -- 5/18/2009 8:05:29 PM >

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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/18/2009 7:56:04 PM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
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From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Oh god do I love humiliation and degredation play, very hot for me. However, like a lot of bdsm stuff, it isn't what it appears to be. I tend to idolize whomever I am with and I wouldn't be with someone who I didn't see as someone very special...

This is about like my experience, too.

It's a little irony about humiliation that people don't always get.

Another little irony is that while I may appear to be commenting on her, calling her this or that or whatever, it is just as much my own fantasy that I'm projecting onto her and onto the situation as it is her fantasy (or reality as the case may be - depending on where-ever you like to draw that particular line.)

In that way we're co-creators, and we respect and caretake each other as collaborators do.

However - this is just my experience with it so far.

I'm sure others have different ways of playing with it that have worked for them.

_____________________________

...YOU KNOW HOW I LIKE MY PORK CHOPS!
- - - - - - -
"....(somewhere) therein lies the truthiness..."
~*~*~*~*
http://www.myspace.com/crocusofiron

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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/20/2009 3:05:44 AM   
Goddess2002


Posts: 226
Joined: 2/29/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks everyone for your replies...they've been very helpful. I did open myself up humiliation recently, and found it to be quite erotic. Guess I just need a bit more practice, my good little cum whore

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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/20/2009 5:50:20 PM   
DeViLiVeD


Posts: 37
Joined: 1/5/2009
Status: offline 		To me whether its humiliation or degradation, it all depends on the relationship that you and your Master/Mistress have. Depend on both your likings and turn-ons. I guess both can be applied if it is well discussed. Not that it should be planned or anything but a dom who truly knows his/her slave should know the limits to humiliate/degrade. Anyhow, thats to what I think.

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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/21/2009 4:42:44 AM   
SaintSavant


Posts: 30
Joined: 4/25/2009
Status: offline 		If your experience is anything like mine when I first started calling little girls names, you will open a floodgate and be surprised at some of the things that come out of your mouth ;)

For my part, when I call her a slut, whore, dirty, cumdump or whatever... in that moment, with the heat rising and blood pumping, I DO mean it.  When she is submitting to my every whim, suffering punishment and being visibly excited by it, she is a dirty slut to me. Afterwards, she is my gorgeous little girl again.

But in that moment, it's a different world.

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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/25/2009 9:06:38 PM   
madetoserveu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: myotherself

For me, it depends what he says.

"You're my slut; a filthy dirty whore" will get me so turned on I could turn cartwheels.

"You're a fat, stupid whore" will get me walking for the door.

As long as both are aware of the boundaries and understand what is meant and what isn't, then it's fine.


I completely agree, anytime it's ussed in a possively overly sexual manner it get's me off...but when it becomes insulting to my physcial attributes or intelligency I have a hard time with it.

Bottom line for me is anything is okay as long as we can talk about it...what is said today may turn me on and a slight change of wording or inflection may bring tears to my eyes the next time.

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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/25/2009 9:20:19 PM   
Branoic


Posts: 10
Joined: 2/10/2009
Status: offline 		The problem with getting to a conversation already on it's second page is that all the good stuff has been said already...

I'm with the majority, Humiliation is erotic and fine (most of the time)...degridation has to be a fantasy or it could be misused. In the end, you have to either talk to the sub beforehand or gage the scene as it goes, which can be tricky. A lady of mine loves to be talked to, loves the voice aspect while she's tied. However, she is'nt the most confident of women, and tends to pull away when we reach a humiliation standpoint. It's something that was learned early on, and we moved on.

I dont really like to degrade a sub, not my style. IF it's what they want, I'll do some, but I'd rather leave it alone. Be true to what feels right, otherwise you'll end up what you dont want to be.

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RE: When You use verbal humiliation, do you mean it? - 5/26/2009 7:14:47 AM   
IronBear


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Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

For those of you who engage in verbal humiliation or degredation with a slave or sub, to what extent does this reflect your true feelings for that person? For example, do you mean it when saying "you are nothing to me but a cum receptacle or slave whore?" Or,doyou use phrases like this, etc., simply to trigger an emotional response?

I guess different strokes...I'm just now getting into verbal play, but as one with a "loving Dominant" style I am finding it not so easy.



Within BDSM I rarely am involved with verbal abuse for I save that for real life, including non BDSM situations, when reaming some damned fool a new hole in their Khyber Pass and in those circumstances, yes I mean every jolly word I say.


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