RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people...

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Truthiness -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 5:21:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild In that case.....seeing that Christ spent much of his adult life living and eating and sleeping among his 12 disciples, it does raise a question regarding his sexuality in that frame of reference. Doesn't really raise a question at all. I spent a significant part of my adult life eating and sleeping with the other 20-30 men who were in my platoon, and never thought that raised any questions about my sexuality. ;)

wolfcannon -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 5:26:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: wolfcannon then by your logic i should know the entire bible by heart english, hebrew and greek. sorry i dont, im a human being not a robot. actually i made that refernce to note i do check the 1611 king james against the greek and hebrew. im sorry you have a narrow view of life. On the contrary. I have a very open view of life. I do not 'expect' that people to be able to recite the bible back to front in all languages. I do prefere to hold discussions with people who know what they are talking about. Otherwise it becomes incredibly difficult to communicate/discuss. For example, you did not get the reference about Jesus. It is with regret you felt the need to attempt to insult me with a passive nature. I hold no ill will. Only the desire for honestly. the.dark. i did see the reference. and choose to concentrate at that time a point i was interested in making. and i was being honest with you.

beargonewild -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 5:26:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Truthiness quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild In that case.....seeing that Christ spent much of his adult life living and eating and sleeping among his 12 disciples, it does raise a question regarding his sexuality in that frame of reference. Doesn't really raise a question at all. I spent a significant part of my adult life eating and sleeping with the other 20-30 men who were in my platoon, and never thought that raised any questions about my sexuality. ;) In reality, no it doesn't raise a question. My reasoning for posting that in reply to wolfcannon is to reflect an idiocy I read in his post.

wolfcannon -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 5:32:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: wolfcannon well as far as i know we live in a Majority Rules goverment. sorry. the Majority of the ppl set the rules and laws.d ...as others have pointed out you live in a republic, not a democracy. However, given your staunch support for the democratic will of the people i'm sure you consider GWB's presidency illegal as Al Gore won the popular vote...... then by you logic we shouldnt be able to vote for anything at all. and yet we do, funny seems to me we live in a democracy. but yet we also live in a republic. so yes it is both. we vote on issues, we vote on presidential elections, we vote to elect congressmen and senators. gee i see alot of voting on local issues in my home state. and personally i dont like Al Gore, but he by all accounts won the majority of the votes (i can only accept the words of the politically left media, except fox news.) but George W. had the electoral majority. honestly the election should have been nullified and redone in my opinion.

wolfcannon -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 5:36:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild quote: ORIGINAL: Truthiness quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild In that case.....seeing that Christ spent much of his adult life living and eating and sleeping among his 12 disciples, it does raise a question regarding his sexuality in that frame of reference. Doesn't really raise a question at all. I spent a significant part of my adult life eating and sleeping with the other 20-30 men who were in my platoon, and never thought that raised any questions about my sexuality. ;) In reality, no it doesn't raise a question. My reasoning for posting that in reply to wolfcannon is to reflect an idiocy I read in his post. there was no idiocy in my post. yes the Lord Jesus spent 3 yrs in the company of 12 men, yet he died a virgin. i believe this, i accept this as fact. i find no reason for you to raise this question.

RCdc -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 5:41:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Truthiness Well out of many translations I've seen for Romans 1:26-28, (including my own, though my knowledge of Greek is rather weak...been concentrating on Hebrew first) I've yet to see one that wasn't rather clear that same sex acts were being referred to. διὰ τοῦτο παρέδωκεν αὐτοὺς ὁ θεὸς εἰς πάθη ἀτιμίας, αἵ τε γὰρ θήλειαι αὐτῶν μετήλλαξαν τὴν φυσικὴν χρῆσιν εἰς τὴν παρὰ φύσιν ὁμοίως τε καὶ οἱ ἄρσενες ἀφέντες τὴν φυσικὴν χρῆσιν τῆς θηλείας ἐξεκαύθησαν ἐν τῇ ὀρέξει αὐτῶν εἰς ἀλλήλους, ἄρσενες ἐν ἄρσεσιν τὴν ἀσχημοσύνην κατεργαζόμενοι καὶ τὴν ἀντιμισθίαν ἣν ἔδει τῆς πλάνης αὐτῶν ἐν ἑαυτοῖς ἀπολαμβάνοντες. Young's Literal translation (I've run into occasional disagreements with his translations but mainly in the OT) for instance translates that as - 26Because of this did God give them up to dishonourable affections, for even their females did change the natural use into that against nature; 27and in like manner also the males having left the natural use of the female, did burn in their longing toward one another; males with males working shame, and the recompense of their error that was fit, in themselves receiving. See, this is the problem one gets with taking a couple of lines out of context. I do understand that for the sake of ease, that biblical writings are marked. But that doesn't mean they should be taken strictly out of context. Understand Romans as a whole book. Paul (be warned - his biggest fan, moi? Not so much but even he wasn't that silly) was writing this as an introduction and praising the 'roman church'. Basically, kissing ass. In BDSM terms, he would have pissed some people off because he flicks from the first to the third person quite a bit. This can be a bit confusing for some. Paul doesn't mention homosexual activity or acts - but general depraved acts - he is comparing - but that is later on and I am digressing. There is not one mention that the men or women participated in a homosexual act. Beastiality maybe, at a push, pedesty or peodiphillia or even gang rape. You have to remember that romans is a suck up, then a dimonishment(I think that is the best word) of their behaviour to which he is making comparrisons. So to understand what he is talking about, you have to look into the practices. Urgh, I went into other things, but I removed them for now, it just gets too confusing bringing in other texts. the.dark.

WyldHrt -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 5:42:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig I have been reading this thread since it began (thank god, otherwise I would never have the time to get caught up[:)]). I just have one comment to make to subrob (I think that's whomade the point) about the claim that gays have exactly the same right to marry as straights and that they want special rights. While you are 100% correct that gays have exactly the same right to marry members of the opposite sex if they so choose, in juridsictions where gay marriage is allowed, straights have exactly the same right to marry members of the same sex as do gays, so nobody has a special right, it simply expands the definition of the existing right, and extends the newly expanded right to everybody, gay or straight. Point taken Funny how you now get the point that I brought up on page 10 (post 197) and Bear brought up a page or 2 later.... [8D]

beargonewild -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 5:46:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wolfcannon there was no idiocy in my post. yes the Lord Jesus spent 3 yrs in the company of 12 men, yet he died a virgin. i believe this, i accept this as fact. i find no reason for you to raise this question. Hmmm...not even over the fact that the bible is a compilation of stories, told over a span of several hundred years and over the fact that each section was written by a different person from their own point of view and knowing that a person's point of view is always biased from their own perspective? Interesting.

RCdc -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 5:48:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wolfcannon there was no idiocy in my post. yes the Lord Jesus spent 3 yrs in the company of 12 men, yet he died a virgin. i believe this, i accept this as fact. i find no reason for you to raise this question. Nowhere is there anything written that he died a virgin. If you can pull that up out the hat, then wow. I will have learnt something pretty new. Pretty much it could be claimed he married - or at least was betrothed to MaryM, due to the marriage customs (from that time period) she performed on him. Yes, again not 'provable' - but a possibility. Seeing as you and I were not there, neither of us can make any accusation to his virgin status. the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 5:54:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild quote: ORIGINAL: wolfcannon there was no idiocy in my post. yes the Lord Jesus spent 3 yrs in the company of 12 men, yet he died a virgin. i believe this, i accept this as fact. i find no reason for you to raise this question. Hmmm...not even over the fact that the bible is a compilation of stories, told over a span of several hundred years and over the fact that each section was written by a different person from their own point of view and knowing that a person's point of view is always biased from their own perspective? Interesting. My dear sweet bearhuggableone Even if the bible is a collection of fiction - I have never seen one reference to Jesus' virginal status. Other than he was a good boy and didn't succumb to temptation. But there really isn't a defintion of temptation other than 'depraved' acts. So ok, he might not have been into handcuffs and camels. But Mary certainly rocked his world.[:D][;)] the.dark.

BitaTruble -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 5:56:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wolfcannon then by you logic we shouldnt be able to vote for anything at all. and yet we do, funny seems to me we live in a democracy. but yet we also live in a republic. so yes it is both. we vote on issues, we vote on presidential elections, we vote to elect congressmen and senators. gee i see alot of voting on local issues in my home state. The legislature makes laws, not 'the people' except in one specific instance which is referendum. We vote on who to send to Congress and hopefully we'll send the people who represent our best interest and make the laws we want them to make. Prop 8 should never have been on the ballot in the first place. It was in violation of the established charter for it to be allowed regardless of what the 'people' wanted. What they should have done is write to their reps and tell them.. "Hey, I want gay marriage banned. Go to Congress and write up a bill to ban it." (Of course, the pesky 14th amendment would have to be overturned first on some sort of case that goes before the Supreme court), but that is the process. Voter contacts their Congressman .. Congressman write bill.. bill goes to committee. If it passes committee it goes to the House. If it passes the House, it goes to the Senate. If it passes the Senate it goes to the Pres for signing. If he signs it, it becomes a law. If he doesn't sign it, it goes back to Congress where, if they get a 2/3 majority vote, it becomes a law. If it doesn't get a 2/3 majority after a Prez veto, it's bye, bye bill.. no law. State laws work in pretty much the same way except it's the Gov who signs the bill and if 2/3 of the legislature vote yes before it gets to the Gov, the Gov sig becomes moot and the bill becomes a law. When you go to the polls to vote, generally you are either voting for or to get rid of an elected official (President, Senator, Judge or Sheriff in some cases etc), a bond issue or a referendum (which is a direct vote to accept or reject a proposal - like Prop 8 but is still subject to the national charter). The issue here is whether or not the direct vote of Prop 8 is legal or illegal. The district court decided it was legal for a direct vote to change the California Constitution after lawsuits were drawn up to appeal the direct vote. The wording of the appeal was terrible so the proposal could not be over-turned at that level and it was sent back denied. Once it gets to the Supreme Court, it may well be denied again. Then what's going to happen is that two people who are of the same sex will go and try to get married in CA and be denied. With 18,000 same sex marriages lawful in CA, they will be able to make a strong case for appeal with citation of the 14th amendment. Once that happens, then Prop 8 will have to be repealed regardless of the current language. It's going to be a long process.. probably two or three years at least, but unless the 14th gets somehow overturned (and it won't) this issue will be defeated and same sex marriage will have to be allowed in CA. If that case holds (or Prop 8 is actually repealed first time around), then every other state will have to allow and recognize same sex marriage because of article 2 of the Constitution and same-sex marriage will become the law of the land with precedent in the Supreme Court. Like I said.. I'm willing to lose a few battles to win the war. Ultimately, Prop 8 going down was a temp set back that is going to end up doing more good for the gay rights movement on a national level than anything else in a very long time. edited again to fix quoting and spelling and clarity.. it's 2:30 AM .. forgive my tiredness please! lol

beargonewild -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 6:00:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark My dear sweet bearhuggableone Even if the bible is a collection of fiction - I have never seen one reference to Jesus' virginal status. Other than he was a good boy and didn't succumb to temptation. But there really isn't a defintion of temptation other than 'depraved' acts. So ok, he might not have been into handcuffs and camels. But Mary certainly rocked his world.[:D][;)] the.dark. Sorry .dark, I should have been quite specific and said that it was a collection of recollections written down by several authors. As to whether these are fictional stories or actual recounting of the life of Christ which was retold and retold before being down in paper I don't know. As you wisely stated, none of us were there during his lifetime and nor we a witness to when the bible was first written.

dcnovice -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 6:06:41 PM)
quote: In that case.....seeing that Christ spent much of his adult life living and eating and sleeping among his 12 disciples, it does raise a question regarding his sexuality in that frame of reference. And don't forget all those references in John to "the [male] disciple Jesus loved"! [:)]

DreamGoddess666 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 6:50:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: purepleasure not to push the issue, but according to your profile, you're a post-op male to female. I'd say you were not born this way, but that you CHOSE to be female, and were born a male trapped in a female's body. You clearly know nothing about transsexuality then. I was born with THAT, too. I was born a woman, but with a physical birth defect that gave me icky guy parts that didn't belong. I had the birth defect fixed so that my body matched my brain. Again, no choice there. The only choice I had was whether to get it fixed or live a lie for the rest of my life.

Bella1965 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 7:26:52 PM)
G'evening all: quote: ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666 You clearly know nothing about trans sexuality then. I was born with THAT, too. I was born a woman, but with a physical birth defect that gave me icky guy parts that didn't belong. I had the birth defect fixed so that my body matched my brain. Again, no choice there. The only choice I had was whether to get it fixed or live a lie for the rest of my life. Off topic for the moment. Correction. You were born male, not female. It's not a birth defect. It's a mental disorder. It's called "Gender Dysphoria". Your statement above is contradictory to your profile which states post-op male to female. So clearly, it's not fixed. Among the many other problems, I'd suggest some anger management. Your knee jerk reaction to resort to violence to handle a situation you find intolerable is not going to solve anything. My view? If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Become an active advocate for gay rights instead of bitching about it on a forum. Take positive steps to improve the status quo. Otherwise, you're just pissing in the wind. Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella

nelly33 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 7:38:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666 By the way, using the "love it or leave it" mentality pretty much voids anything else you might have to say because it's a critical flaw in debate. You just don't understand anything about the United States if you think that way. but you understand the US in the way that you want to take up arms and kill people?

jlf1961 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 8:01:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666 Laws that take away rights from convicted felons are PUNISHMENTS for people who HURT INNOCENT PEOPLE. It's reactionary and thus just. As for the law prohibiting people not born in the United States from becoming President, guess what? I'm against that law and fully believe it should be changed. Third, the federal government overturned ALL the sodomy laws a few years back. None of them are valid anymore, and by the Constitution, can't be enforced. Fourth, it's not a "lifestyle choice". I didn't choose to be this way, I was BORN this way. You people want to keep pushing the choice thing, but you're wrong. Personal experience proves that fact. I didn't make any choice in this. I'm attracted to women, not men, period, I didn't chose it, I was born that way. All of this still doesn't rebuke the fact that, majority belief or no, being for heterosexual marriage and against gay marriage is oppression and bigotry by definition. By the way, using the "love it or leave it" mentality pretty much voids anything else you might have to say because it's a critical flaw in debate. You just don't understand anything about the United States if you think that way. I stand corrected, I only know that many states still have the sodomy laws on the books and they are sometimes counted as separate acts in rape cases, part of the "pile on the charges to make sure someone gets jail time" philosophy. And, I said, *you can either bide your time until the majority of people accept the idea of gay and lesbian marriage OR move to a country where it is already the law of the land*, not the love it or leave it argument. Learn to read, I was explaining your options in the present situation. As my reference to "Lifestyle," I was pointing out that it is still a choice. Regardless of what orientation you were born with, you still make the choice to live in such a way that some may consider abnormal, OR you can choose a life without including any partner, the same is true with a straight person. They can live a life with partners or without. Jokes aside, there are people who have made the choice of a celibate lifestyle, straight, gay or lesbian. You chose a lifestyle that includes sexual partners, as did I. You are homosexual, I am heterosexual. A friend of mine that I grew up with choose to become a nun, and she was straight, dated, but in the end, answered a call to a lifestyle that I considered abnormal (it did explain why I couldnt get past first base with her.) Homosexuality, you might have learned in various college courses is a natural part of the life cycle. It occurs in various primate species, various pack animals 'mount' lower ranked pack members to establish dominance. In ancient Greece, homosexual relationships were expected in some cultures and considered normal (actually it was believed that between men it was a true showing of love, since women were considered to not have the ability to truly understand love.) Finally, the only comparison between the King James version of the bible and the dead sea scrolls is in the old testament. There is not a single one of the scrolls that deal with any book of the new testament.

beargonewild -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 8:18:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666 quote: ORIGINAL: purepleasure not to push the issue, but according to your profile, you're a post-op male to female. I'd say you were not born this way, but that you CHOSE to be female, and were born a male trapped in a female's body. You clearly know nothing about transsexuality then. I was born with THAT, too. I was born a woman, but with a physical birth defect that gave me icky guy parts that didn't belong. I had the birth defect fixed so that my body matched my brain. Again, no choice there. The only choice I had was whether to get it fixed or live a lie for the rest of my life. Technically it is not a birth defect per se, If abnormalities of cell division occur, a fetus with mosaicism may result. The baby may have both cells with 46 XY chromosomes and cells with 46 XX chromosomes. This condition has been called hermaphroditism (after the greek god Hermes and goddes Aphrodite) and it is one of many causes of intersex. Because both male (46-XY) and female (46-XX) cells exist within the same fetus, both male and female structures develop. Typically, the penis is not completely virilized (hypospadias). One or both testes may not be palpable or they may be palpable, but undescended. Whenever you see an infant with both hypospadias and an undescended testis (cryptorchidism), you must consider the possibility of intersex. Internally, Müllerian structures develop (uterus, oviducts, vagina). Gonadal tissue of both genders is present in various patterns: a testis on one side and an ovary on the other, a testis on one side and an ovo-testis (gonad containing both ovary and testis) on the other, or an ovary on one side and an ovo-testis on the other. source" http://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/MedEd/urology/hrmphdt.htm edited to correct info

DreamGoddess666 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 9:16:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bella1965 G'evening all: Correction. You were born male, not female. It's not a birth defect. It's a mental disorder. It's called "Gender Dysphoria". Your statement above is contradictory to your profile which states post-op male to female. So clearly, it's not fixed. Your ignorance to the reality of transsexuality is beyond my comprehension. Just because the DSM says it's a mental disorder DOESN'T MAKE IT SO. Homosexuality used to be in there, too. Just as back then, there are efforts being made now to remove transsexuality from the DSM altogether and place it where it belongs: under physical birth defects. People like you are part of the problem. quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild Technically it is not a birth defect per se, If abnormalities of cell division occur, a fetus with mosaicism may result. The baby may have both cells with 46 XY chromosomes and cells with 46 XX chromosomes. This condition has been called hermaphroditism (after the greek god Hermes and goddes Aphrodite) and it is one of many causes of intersex. Because both male (46-XY) and female (46-XX) cells exist within the same fetus, both male and female structures develop. Typically, the penis is not completely virilized (hypospadias). One or both testes may not be palpable or they may be palpable, but undescended. Whenever you see an infant with both hypospadias and an undescended testis (cryptorchidism), you must consider the possibility of intersex. Internally, Müllerian structures develop (uterus, oviducts, vagina). Gonadal tissue of both genders is present in various patterns: a testis on one side and an ovary on the other, a testis on one side and an ovo-testis (gonad containing both ovary and testis) on the other, or an ovary on one side and an ovo-testis on the other. source" http://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/MedEd/urology/hrmphdt.htm edited to correct info I didn't say I was a hermaphrodite. You don't seem to understand what transsexuality is.

yourdarkdesire -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 9:20:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Truthiness quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild In that case.....seeing that Christ spent much of his adult life living and eating and sleeping among his 12 disciples, it does raise a question regarding his sexuality in that frame of reference. Doesn't really raise a question at all. I spent a significant part of my adult life eating and sleeping with the other 20-30 men who were in my platoon, and never thought that raised any questions about my sexuality. ;) Ok - I spent 3 years living on a floor with 19 other women in nursing school. I prefer men. Should I be having a sexual identity crisis????

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