RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (Full Version)

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purepleasure -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 10:41:31 PM)

If Idi Amin, Fidel Castro, or say.... Osama Bin Laden, were to become a naturalized citizen of the USA, you would have no issue with them being eligible to run for the office of President?


edited for clarity



Arpig -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 10:54:27 PM)

quote:

but i will attempt to portray what could happen now.  lets say another country/religion decides to come here with many citizens.  they all become natural citizens, pass the tests, take the oath, ect.  then they all run.  the taliban would be an interesting one, no?  care to speculate on the outcome?

Sorry but that scenario is more than farfetched, it is absurd. They would have to "import" enough people to insure their guy got elected...do you really honestly think that is feasable, and if you do, why on earth do you feel it would be so hard for them to find a native-born collaborator to go along with their nefarious scheme.

quote:

If Idi Amin, Fidel Castro, or say.... Osama Bin Laden, were to become a naturalized citizen of the USA, you would have no issue with them becoming President?

I don't believe that any of the people you listed would have the slightest chance of being elected, so your example really is not relevant. Its on par with pointing out that Ted Bundy or Charlie Manson could be President, so shouldn't there be some sort of restriction to prevent that?

If these lame outbursts of paranoia are the best you can come up with, then I think that DreamGoddess may be on the right track. I just don't see the problem, either naturalised citizens are equal citizens, or they are 2nd class citizens. In Canada we accept all Canadians as equal, and allow any adult citizen to hold the highest offices in the land, and we seem to do so without being overrun with evil foreign hordes usurping our institutions.



nelly33 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 10:56:58 PM)

the point is that foreign born citizens can possibly have leanings towards other nations as well... naturally leaning towards the country of origin... the President of the united states has to have the United States as the only nation that he or she has any loyalty to.



Arpig -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 10:58:42 PM)

I guess you never saw the movie The Manchurian Candidate, eh?



tazzygirl -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 11:02:23 PM)

now we are basing our country on a movie?



nelly33 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 11:05:48 PM)

lol at the Manchurian candidate being a source



Arpig -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 11:06:45 PM)

quote:

now we are basing our country on a movie?

The scenario presented in that movie (and book) is far more plausible than the ones presented here.



tazzygirl -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 11:11:32 PM)

the founding fathers didnt want this to happen, as the article stated.  and if you have trouble understanding what was so concisely written in the article i supplied, then we wont be able to discuss this issue.  i personally see nothing wrong with the law as it is written.  i adore Arnold.  but i stand by the reasoning of the founders.  they didnt want outside countries/religions/interests taking hold of the government here.  you say absurb.  i say its within the realm of feasibility.  better too cautious
then not cautious enough.



nelly33 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 11:12:10 PM)

not than mine... which is based on people looking at reality... not a book/movie... not a source



jlf1961 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 11:25:57 PM)

The reasons behind the president being a born a US citizen may be outdated, however, until a majority of citizens push for a repeal, it is the law of the land.

In today's world, the argument could be made about a naturalized citizen having an agenda contrary to the best interests of the citizens of the United States.

However, that is not the argument the op first stated.

quote:

The upholding of Proposition 8 in California is a major human rights defeat in this country. I don't think the United States should be allowed to be called the "land of the free" anymore. It should be "the land of the free if you're a Heterosexual Christian", because that's what it really is. I despise people putting the Bible into law.


Actually, there is no statement that the law was influenced by the bible.

quote:


It's a violation of everything the founding fathers intended when this country was created.


Actually, considering the various religious beliefs of the founding fathers, I find it hard to believe that they would have supported the legislation in any form.

While it is true that some of the founding fathers had mistresses, slept with slaves, or committed adultery, at that time, homosexuality was still looked at as abnormal behavior.  You have forgotten the puritanical standards under which this country was founded.

quote:


It makes me think maybe it's time for another revolution. The founded fathers didn't ask for freedom nicely, they TOOK IT at the end of a gun. I'm starting to think that's the only way homosexuals will get true freedom. We may end up having to kill for it, taking that freedom at the end of a gun. The religious nuts have to be stopped!

I'm so angry I can't even see straight right now.


As stated before, the problem is not the "religious" nuts, but the amount of acceptance and tolerance for homosexuality.  It has only been in recent years that the idea actually gained tolerance.

Until the level of tolerance has reached a point where such unions are acceptable, things will not change.

And promoting violence to achieve such ends actually makes your argument seem more the rantings of an unbalanced individual rather than the thoughts of an intelligent individual.



Arpig -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 11:28:16 PM)

Whatever guys, I still think your reasons are farfetched and really kind of ludicrous. Like I said, in Canada we manage without any such restriction, and I believe in the UK as well (perhaps one of our British members might clarify this). Neither France nor Russia has this requirement either. I can understand the reason it was put into your constitution when it was written, I just question its validity today. Being born in a country really in no way insures anybody's loyalty to that country (Quisling, Aryan Nations and the Z.O.G., Timothy McVae, and so on....) Myself I was born in Japan, and lived there through high school, and yet I have no connection or loyalty to Japan as a country, a certain fondness of memory, but no loyalty.



GreedyTop -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 11:28:55 PM)

[sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif]



purepleasure -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 11:30:04 PM)

well said Jeff.



DreamGoddess666 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 11:32:28 PM)

Arpig states the proper reasoning well.



purepleasure -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 11:34:09 PM)

Arpig is also not a citizen... naturalized or born, of the USA.



tazzygirl -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 11:42:55 PM)

in light of 911, i dont forsee it being changed anytime soon.  my reasoning is my own for it still being a valid point of our law today.  the founders had their own reasoning.  now, you suggest simplybecause you dont see a validity for it any longer, it should be tossed out.

recall, at the time it was written, we had just dealt with england trying to boss us around.  the founders had had enough, and this was their way of saying.. no more.

i, for one, am glad canada is having such an easy time.  we continue to have problems here in the good ole USA with outside forces.  there are ways to change the laws here.  until they are changed, its just how it is.  dont like it.  change it within the framework provided instead of carrying on abotu how it "isnt fair"

again... fair... a place where pigs win ribbons



CruelNUnsual -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 11:46:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

what part of that didnt you understand?  i thought it pretty obvious the intent of the founding fathers

but i will attempt to portray what could happen now.  lets say another country/religion decides to come here with many citizens.  they all become natural citizens, pass the tests, take the oath, ect.  then they all run.  the taliban would be an interesting one, no?  care to speculate on the outcome?


Or George Soros. He helped buy the White House as it is, imagine the impact of his money and influence if he could run himself.



Zevar -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 11:54:40 PM)

Greetings Lindsey:

Thanks for this thread. It has generated much to consider even though not all written here is agreed by all. The best to you!

Now I will say this in general. Be warned it is LONG....So if you do not like to read a LONG posting then click click now.

As I read each post here I could not help but to recall the many times that this argument of "who gets the right to marriage" has been fought over the years. The real issue that is underlying in the denial of same gendered marriage is rooted in ignorance, fear and manifests through mean spirited hateful tactics and YES usually in the name of "Jesus".

I know there are many who agree that same gendered folks should not have the SAME rights as opposite gendered folks have. I also know what it is like to have dear friends who are same gendered folks that are devout in their vow to one another and then find that their loving devotion is demonized by usually so called christians and non-christians alike in thought and action.

Ashamedly so it is more true in most cases that hatred of same gendered couples in barring them civil right to be granted a civil marriage license is explained away as some kind of religous duty that must be done in the name of " Jesus ". I quote the previous as surely the Jesus that I understand from the reading of the Scripture would not condone the tactics of those who claim to follow Him and then go on to mandate Civil Law in His name to bar other humans from fair and equal protection under the Laws of the Land. Where is the seperation of Church and State? What does this kind of hateful action do for " Jesus" ?

I seriously doubt any of the people who promote hatred and barring Civil Rights from same gendered citizens know what it is like to have a baseball bat beaten against their head or their home burned down in the middle of the night or be strung up on the side of a fence with their skin ripped from their bones of their body or to be raped and violated while being spat on and brutally beaten ?

I know of same gendered dear friends who survived acts as these while others died. Remembering all of this was done in for religious cause in the name of their " Jesus".

In most instances ignorance in the majority of hetersexual people who are christians and non-christians alike in thought and action for some reason think they are superior in their loving of one another. The argument usually goes to claim; in most cases their sexual union produces children so it is reasoned that they must be superior over same gendered unions.

This kind of ignorant exclusive hate based message promoted by so called christians and non-christians alike in thought and action are usually those who claim superior morality over all other people. This kind of exclusive thinking tends to feed the minds and hearts of those who are looking for someone to condone their lust to destroy what they fear. Which is in fact a lack of basic human compassion for other human beings and not defined as such by those who desire to destroy what they fear thus do not care to try to understand.

Some might argue and disagree with this idealogy. Or simply ignore it. Which of course is their right. However remember while we are here quietly in the privacy of our homes all the while in real time in some distant city, town, rural location or else-where same gendered people are experiencing the very things mentioned here in the post and in some cases worse. With the reasoning to be in most instances because they are capable of loving in a same gendered manner and are considered social outcasts, called all kind of vulgarities, denied basic human rights and lest we forget all in the name of "Jesus."

Do I claim to understand how to love another who is same gendered? I do not. I am a heterosexual man and can only love the opposite gender. I cannot imagine not doing so. I can though understand what I do share with those who love in a same gendered manner. It is that this is all they can do is love the same gender and mate and pair together as I only love the opposite gender and can mate and pair with.

Even if I could not understand it is not my right to tell another whom to love or not. It is of course between each individual and their own conscience. For me it all comes down to love. Love has multiple variations in all of nature and science. Why not with the human species?

If you ask for my source or my reference. I can point you in the direction of all of those who I thought surely would not do such inhumane acts that I called " relatives " and my former " Christian family" but then they would not speak with anyone here because of course they are superior to all of us outcasts and heathens.

My taking a stand cost much seemingly so for my family of choice to whom I will forever be grateful to for teaching me so many valuable lessons as I did for each one of them.

Surely a family devoted to love could not disagree that hate is not a family value. Peace, compassion, integrity, honesty to name a few family values and above them all is Love.

Nothing less could even come close to a love that is universal for all yet individually expressed through those who dare to give their hearts and minds to a power greater than a limited understanding that sees no differences in those who are willing to be true instruments of Love.

In closing I remember, live it don't just talk it.

Se Safe All...

I wish you well,
~ Zevar ~



Arpig -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/29/2009 11:57:55 PM)

quote:

Arpig is also not a citizen... naturalized or born, of the USA.
Are you so very sure of that?[;)] And whatever my citizenship, it doesn't invalidate my viewpoint. And I really was interested in knowing what reasons people had for still supporting that restriction in today's world. I am still interested in hearing any reasonable reasons.
I agree with Tazzy, I also don't see it being changed anytime soon, and to be honest the only compelling reason I could see for changing it is that it seems to be a form of discrimination, based on one's place of birth (though I suppose that most children born overseas to US citizens are considered natural born, though of this I am not sure). Anyway, it is nearly 3 AM here, and the UMs will be up very early, so I will sign out for the night and will look in again tomorrow, sleep well all.



tazzygirl -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 12:01:58 AM)

yes, those born to US citizens, even outside the US, are considered natural citizens



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