RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (Full Version)

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nelly33 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 12:06:06 AM)

there simply cannot be duel loyalties for the president of the united states.  i agree with the law, and when the restriction is only placed upon presidents... i don't really think that it is to much of a concern for most people... if you don't see a problem, that's your viewpoint... but to say that it is unreasonable or that it's unfair... i think that's just plain untrue.



WyldHrt -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 12:07:07 AM)

quote:

the point is that foreign born citizens can possibly have leanings towards other nations as well... naturally leaning towards the country of origin... the President of the united states has to have the United States as the only nation that he or she has any loyalty to.

I have disagreed with much of what he has said in this thread, but what Nelly said above is quite correct. The problem isn't so much that some radical will get elected and surrender the US to his country of birth, but that a foreign born President may still harbor a loyalty to or sympathy for his or her country of origin that could impact policy decisions in favor of that country, possibly to the detriment of either the US or other nations.

Another issue (IMO) is the "appearance of impropriety" should an impartial policy decision appear to be giving favor to the President's country of birth. Example: A naturalized citizen from Israel becomes President of the US. Israel goes to war, and the US sends support and aid. Would people (esp those who disagreed with the action) really ignore the fact that the President was born a citizen of Israel? Or would such a thing start/ help fuel a shitstorm in the media, other countries, and within the US as well when people start questioning our President's motives?



nelly33 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 12:12:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

Another issue (IMO) is the "appearance of impropriety" should an impartial policy decision appear to be giving favor to the President's country of birth. Example: A naturalized citizen from Israel becomes President of the US. Israel goes to war, and the US sends support and aid. Would people (esp those who disagreed with the action) really ignore the fact that the President was born a citizen of Israel? Or would such a thing start/ help fuel a shitstorm in the media?


This as well.



DomImus -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 12:21:02 AM)

Granted, the rationale of being born in the United States as a criteria for holding the office of president may not be as applicable today as it was when the Constitution was written but many of us have grown accustomed to it and prefer it that way even without the real threat of espionage in the Oval Office. There are many things in the Constitution that are not life and death necessities. They are there because many of us like them and we want them to remain there.



MstrPBK -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 12:51:59 AM)

Extreme Scenario #2903 ....

Unfriendly Foreign dictator has indiscreet relations with person X ...
Person X gives birth in the United States ...
Child A chooses the USA as its country of birth at the age of majority
Chile A rises to be President ...

I would say you have a legal situation which has risk. Any thoughts ...

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN USA



nelly33 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 12:54:48 AM)

i would say that legally he could be president, but his father's background would prevent him from getting elected... next question



Arpig -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 12:56:21 AM)

Hi, couldn't sleep, so I figured a pint of Guinness and some more CM might do the trick. As far as the dual loyalties argument goes, I don't really buy that, as I pointed out there are plenty of native born Americans who despise the US Government and want to overthrow it, so being native born really isn't any sort of yardstick of loyalty, and conversly being foreign born is not a sign of divided loyalties. I believe that the vast majority of immigrants are devoted in their loyalty to their adopted land.

Now Wyldhrt's "appearance of improrpiety" is another matter. There is a lot of validity to that arguement, however I want to point out that many native-born Irish-Americans have what might be considered divided loyalties, as witnessed by the fact that the major source of IRA funding over the years was from the Irish-American community, so doesn't it follow that an Irish-American President (such as JFK) would be suspect when it came to policies that touched on Ireland, belfast and/or the UK?

On to DomImus...That arguement is one I had not thought of. Perhaps tradition is a good reason to leave things the way they are, however, in light of the original topic of this thread, I don't think it really is valid...I mean the problem with Prop 8 passing is that a lot of people like the rules on marriage the way they are and don't want it to change, yet most of the posters here seem to fully support the idea that it should change.

Is not Article II (clause whatever....sorry don't feel like looking it up) in fact discriminatory in nature? If not, why not? And if it is, why then should this particular case of discrimination be allowed when others are not? Is not the whole gist of this thread and the basic drive behind it the removal of discriminatory laws?
I look forward to reading your thoughts on these questions.

P.S. Kinda cool the way I brought the original topic back into it eh? [;)]

edited to make the paragraphs more distinct....then edited again to remove an extra "m"



nelly33 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 1:01:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Hi, couldn't sleep, so I figured a pint of Guinness and some more CM might do the trick. As far as the dual loyalties argument goes, I don't really buy that, as I pointed out there are plenty of native born Americans who despise the US Government and want to overthrow it, so being native born really isn't any sort of yardstick of loyalty, and conversly being foreign born is not a sign of divided loyalties. I believe that the vast majority of immigrants are devoted in their loyalty to their adopted land.



no, being foreign born is not a def. sign of divided loyalties, and being born here does not mean that you like the US... but it makes it more likely... and being the president is not something that can be left to chance... the president of  the United States is the most powerful man in the world... precautions must be taken in order to make sure everything is kosher.  also, i don't really see how this can be a very big issue... in order for the law to be overturned, a real case where a foreigner has been denied from seeking office must be taken to the supreme court.  doubtful this will ever happen.  in theory we can argue this point... but it is unlikely to ever see the light of day... gay marriage on the other hand... haha

sleep.

edited to nap



Arpig -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 1:07:32 AM)

I agree that the liklihood of this change ever being made is slim to none. As far as taking a chance, I wonder why the Russians, with their vast nuclear arsenal feel safe in taking that chance, as do the French, and the British (and constitutionally speaking, the PM of Britain has far more power than the POTUS).

As far as the SCOTUS (Boy those abbreviations sure save on the keystrokes [:)]) ever ruling on the issue, I don't see how they could rule on the constitutionality of part of the Constitution, sort of a given that it is constitutional....just saying[;)]



tazzygirl -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 1:11:08 AM)

no, the point of this thread was a rant against the christian/religious communities who "prevented" gay marriages from continuing in california..

while i empathise with Dream and understand her anger, its the direction her anger is taking that i object too.



WyldHrt -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 2:09:11 AM)

quote:

As far as the dual loyalties argument goes, I don't really buy that, as I pointed out there are plenty of native born Americans who despise the US Government and want to overthrow it, so being native born really isn't any sort of yardstick of loyalty, and conversly being foreign born is not a sign of divided loyalties. I believe that the vast majority of immigrants are devoted in their loyalty to their adopted land.

True enough, but most native born Americans who despise the US can't keep their mouths shut (especially when they are young), and would never be elected to any high ranking post in the US Gov't, let alone the Presidency once that comes out. On the other side, most naturalized citizens probably are devoted to their new country, but that doesn't mean they don't still love the country that they came from. Could you really make the decision to drop a bomb on the country where you were born and grew up?
quote:

Now Wyldhrt's "appearance of improrpiety" is another matter. There is a lot of validity to that arguement, however I want to point out that many native-born Irish-Americans have what might be considered divided loyalties, as witnessed by the fact that the major source of IRA funding over the years was from the Irish-American community, so doesn't it follow that an Irish-American President (such as JFK) would be suspect when it came to policies that touched on Ireland, belfast and/or the UK?
Yep, it does follow and such things do make waves. That said, how much worse would it be if the POTUS had actually been a citizen of the country in question? Declared loyalty to that country at some point in his/her life? Was born there? Grew up there? Possibly held a dual citizenship? Suspicion is one thing, but that could (and probably would) be a feeding frenzy of insinuation that would undermine the public's confidence in their President, which is a nightmare for any nation.
I'll deal with the last point in a bit, as it is past 2AM and my political logic meter is expired for tonight [:D]



sirsholly -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 2:09:46 AM)

nm



Arpig -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 2:20:21 AM)

quote:

Could you really make the decision to drop a bomb on the country where you were born and grew up?

Now there is a really valid idea. To be honest, I doubt one could, I mean there is a liklihood of having and knowing family there.

quote:

Suspicion is one thing, but that could (and probably would) be a feeding frenzy of insinuation that would undermine the public's confidence in their President, which is a nightmare for any nation.
Also a very valid point. Not so much that there would be any real conflict, but that the administration's opponents could create the impression that there was a conflict that might undermine the administration's legitimacy (not really the right word, but I can't think of a better one at the moment) during a crisis. This is not at all a farfetched idea, I mean look at the BS about Obama being a muslim or being somehow untrustworthy because he attended a muslim school in his youth.

Both very good points, thank you[:)]



Arpig -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 2:29:17 AM)

I have been thinking about your post a little further, and while I still agree with your first point, that is indeed a very valid one, I am wondering if the second point really justifies barring naturalised citizens. Doesn't it seem a little harsh to do so because of the possibility that the POTUS' origins could be used to sow doubt?

And upon a little further thought, regarding the first point, wouldn't a catholic have some problems bombing Rome (granted the liklihood of having to bomb Rome is seemingly remote at the moment, it was not all that long ago that the US had to face that exact dilema).

And another thought that came to me, wouldn't a Jewish president be suspect when dealing with either Israel or the Arab world, and what if the issue was bombing Israel (again highly unlikely, yet not impossible)? Yet I doubt that anybody would say that a Catholic or Jew should be ineligable (sp?) for the presidency.



sirsholly -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 2:42:27 AM)

quote:

And upon a little further thought, regarding the first point, wouldn't a catholic have some problems bombing Rome
us ex-catholics would have no sleep disturbance...



Arpig -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 2:45:21 AM)

quote:

us ex-catholics would have no sleep disturbance...
[:D][:D][:D][:D]



WyldHrt -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 3:25:50 AM)

As I said, I'll wade back in tomorrow (ugh, later today), Arpig. Asking my brain to function after 3AM will result in something much like some of the more... ahhh... less than logical posts in this thread [;)]

ETA- As regards your second 2 points, again it is a matter of degree. I'll deal with #1 after I get some sleep, lol [8D]



Arpig -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 3:32:45 AM)

I need some sleep too, its 6AM here...sleep well



WyldHrt -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 3:36:49 AM)

Nighters, Arpig. Thanks for a good debate so far [:)]



BitaTruble -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/30/2009 4:49:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I have been thinking about your post a little further, and while I still agree with your first point, that is indeed a very valid one, I am wondering if the second point really justifies barring naturalised citizens. Doesn't it seem a little harsh to do so because of the possibility that the POTUS' origins could be used to sow doubt?

And upon a little further thought, regarding the first point, wouldn't a catholic have some problems bombing Rome (granted the liklihood of having to bomb Rome is seemingly remote at the moment, it was not all that long ago that the US had to face that exact dilema).

And another thought that came to me, wouldn't a Jewish president be suspect when dealing with either Israel or the Arab world, and what if the issue was bombing Israel (again highly unlikely, yet not impossible)? Yet I doubt that anybody would say that a Catholic or Jew should be ineligable (sp?) for the presidency.

These are all excellent points, Arpig!

First, let me say that anyone who didn't have conflict and strife in making a decision to bomb any country isn't someone with the proper temperment to be President. Choosing to bomb another nation 'should' be one of the toughest decisions the POTUS can make. It should only be undertaken after profound care and thoughtful consideration for the consequences with the cost of risk/reward carefully weighed.

So, would a natural born Israeli have problems bombing Israel? I sure as hell hope so! Would a natural born Israeli have 'less' problems bombing Palestine? ::shrug:: I sure as hell hope not but most of us won't be willing to take that chance. As a people, we have more trust in the blood ties to our own country than we would in someone who was foreign born. Right or wrong, that's pretty much how it is. We may evolve past that, but as long as there are Yanks and Rebels, Easters and Westers, Bible Belt and Sun Belt, the best chance we have for someone to bring all those factions together is someone who was born here.

Us vs Them isn't going to go away anytime soon even if it should or could. Is that valid? Yes, because as a whole, there is still a mob mentality in the US (witness the surge of support for the POTUS after 9/11). Until we grow up, we need our leader to be a blood relative.. a step-parent is only going to make us stomp our feet, place blame when things don't go right on his/her ethnicity and, if someone is really pissed off, the unthinkable could happen. We're not ready.. we have too much growing up to do.

Celeste



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