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RE: When does one stop being a sub/slave and start being a "doormat"?


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RE: When does one stop being a sub/slave and start bein... - 5/28/2009 2:58:33 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

i suppose by peoples definitions here, i have been a doormat - in working hard to accept big changes in the relationship and absorbing them best i could.  i upheld my end of the bargain and continued to submit to the man i called Master and tried to rise to each occasion to the best of my ability as his slave - if that makes me a doormat, then fine.
 


I certainly don't see that as being a doormat.

In fact the clue is in your post: "I upheld my end of the bargain" - the implication being that you recognise that it takes two to tango.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

personally i just saw it as me focusing on the man i was submissive to



I strive to focus on my partner too - long story short: you care about the well being of your partner and this is certainly no indicator of orientation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

i find it a little odd frankly to use a phrase derogatively toward the other half of the D/s Ms equation - when it is total submission, absolute trust and complete acceptance most Dominants covet - and again, if that makes us doormats then sobeit.



I disagree. I expect total submission (within the boundaries of having upheld my end of the bargain) absolute trust (providing I'm good for my word) and complete acceptance (again providing I give her no reason to distrust me). The difference being that I recognise that I have a duty to uphold my end of the bargain which of course is a sentiment that your first paragraph betrayed too.

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(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: When does one stop being a sub/slave and start bein... - 5/28/2009 3:34:55 PM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
In fact the clue is in your post: "I upheld my end of the bargain" - the implication being that you recognise that it takes two to tango.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

I disagree. I expect total submission (within the boundaries of having upheld my end of the bargain) absolute trust (providing I'm good for my word) and complete acceptance (again providing I give her no reason to distrust me). The difference being that I recognise that I have a duty to uphold my end of the bargain which of course is a sentiment that your first paragraph betrayed too.


in saying that i upheld my end of the bargain was in no way meant to suggest that He didnt.  He did absolutely.

it was meant in the spirit that you mention here, that each person in a relationship maintains it through meeting their side of the deal.

for a submissive or slave to submit entirely all that she is doing is giving all of her efforts and upholding her agreement to do her best and always try to do her best.

it would seem that in being a dedicated submissive or slave this earns you the title 'doormat' - maybe the suggestion is that this somehow compromises a persons integrity and self respect.  it doesnt.  a submissives integrity and self respect is entirely wrapped up in giving her best to the relationship she is in.

and again, if that is being a doormat, then im perfectly content to be called one.  however, my exSir discussed this thread on the phone just now - his comment was that neither misst or i are doormats, we simply do as we are asked to do, and we do so to the best of our ability.

< Message edited by lally2 -- 5/28/2009 3:39:23 PM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: When does one stop being a sub/slave and start bein... - 5/28/2009 3:44:35 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

in saying that i upheld my end of the bargain was in no way meant to suggest that He didnt.  He did absolutely.



Yes I understood that.

In the context of this discussion it is important by virtue of a bargain being synonymous with negotiation and compromise i.e. having your needs met. In other words: caring about your needs being met which brings us back to my post to which you replied.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

it would seem that in being a dedicated submissive or slave this earns you the title 'doormat'



I think this is where we're missing one another Lally - I see no connection between dedicated and doormat and I can't see where this sentiment is either tacitly or explicitiy expressed during this thread.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: When does one stop being a sub/slave and start bein... - 5/28/2009 4:06:30 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

i find it a little odd frankly to use a phrase derogatively toward the other half of the D/s Ms equation - when it is total submission, absolute trust and complete acceptance most Dominants covet - and again, if that makes us doormats then sobeit.

50 points.


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(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: When does one stop being a sub/slave and start bein... - 5/28/2009 4:14:47 PM   
ChasingOblivion


Posts: 125
Joined: 5/19/2009
Status: offline 		The simplest answer in my opinion is that the line between sub/slave and doormat is crossed when it stops being enjoyable to the S type, but he/she is afraid to walk away.
I am very submissive, but I am not weak, I am not a victim or a doormat, and I will never allow myself to become that because I deserve better. 
Friends of mine who are not in the lifestyle have trouble understanding that being submissive is not the same thing as allowing someone to treat you like garbage, and that it is my choice to whom I submit. Should anyone not respect my choice, or have selective hearing when it comes to the word "no," they would (and have, because there are jerks in every demographic) find out very quickly exactly how much of a victim I am not.

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: When does one stop being a sub/slave and start bein... - 5/28/2009 4:30:52 PM   
oceanwinds


Posts: 530
Status: offline 		When people on this board are accused of being a doormat because they are living to their ideal of a submissive, that is the point when the meaning gets muddled. A person who stays in a relationship where they arent getting anything but hurt is a person who lives in fear. This type a person you will find in a lot of domestic abuse cases, where women and men(counsel a few of them) fear leaving more then staying. 

To call a submissive or a slave a doormat because you do not agree with their ideal of expression is senseless. No one on these boards, who haven't known the person up front and personally, cant judge another s-type as being a doormat. For me if someone considers me a doormat, so be it. I do not live in fear of being alone. I live alone. I submit with full mind and understanding of what i am doing.  I submit from choice. I submit to a wonderful Friend who to me is Sir.

A doormat is not equvilent to an s-type. It  is just a word that some use against another to make themselves feel superior.  A person who lives in fear and will not change things to get past that  fear is a prisoner in their own cage. No one can help them to get out of there, until they decide too be free.

< Message edited by oceanwinds -- 5/28/2009 4:34:40 PM >

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(in reply to ChasingOblivion)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: When does one stop being a sub/slave and start bein... - 5/28/2009 5:39:28 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

Original: ChasingOblivion

The simplest answer in my opinion is that the line between sub/slave and doormat is crossed when it stops being enjoyable to the S type, but he/she is afraid to walk away.


I would like to bring up a point of semantics here. I don't think it necessarily has to be -enjoyable- to the individual in question... there are many times, in healthy relationships, on -either- side of the kneel, where continuing in that relationship isn't enjoyable... it is just plain HARD. It is challenging, miserable, and painful... but there is a knowledge that the outcome will be -satisfying-. Sometimes, the satisfaction comes merely from having weathered the storm, but it is that point at which it all becomes -pointless-... when there is no satisfaction... no sense of progressing, growing, or moving forward... that the decision has to be made about whether to hang on or let go. For me, the "doormat" is the individual who clings to that shred of life even though there is no good reason to do so, and who continues to allow hirself to be devalued, and continues to devalue hirself by not maintaining even hir deepest core values instead of walking (or even crawling) away (again, on either side of the kneel or in a non-D/s relationship... it doesn't really matter).

Dame Calla

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(in reply to ChasingOblivion)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: When does one stop being a sub/slave and start bein... - 5/28/2009 6:26:02 PM   
ChasingOblivion


Posts: 125
Joined: 5/19/2009
Status: offline 		I think we are in agreement here, although you clarified the point far better than I.
No relationship, of any type, will always be enjoyable. Anything good in life requires hard work, dedication, commitment, compromise, and sacrifice. However, if one reaches a point in any relationship where they feel as though there is only unhappiness and no redeeming benefit, it is time to move on. Those who stay out of fear, (whether it be fear of retribution from their partner, or fear of the unknown/change/starting over etc.) preferring the familiarity of despair to the uncertainty of life beyond, are what I consider to be the definition of a "doormat." 

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: When does one stop being a sub/slave and start bein... - 5/28/2009 7:33:49 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		door·mat 

1 : a mat placed before or inside a door for wiping dirt from the shoes 2 : one that submits without protest to abuse or indignities 3 : a team that regularly finishes last  So there IS a "traditionally accepted" form.  So it would seem in the context of the OP, and using the definition above, slaves/subs are not being submitted to abuse or indignities.  They are proud of the place they have chosen and the way in which they serve it.   Obviously, that "place" will be somewhat different for each individual, however, I think the line over to "doormat" is not simply when the s-type is no longer being fufilled, although certainly that would be part.  I think it would be a combination of lack of fufillment, being taken for granted and being abused.   Before anyone starts on the whole "slaves exist to serve" tirade, remember, slaves find fufillment in serving.  Also if one's service is NEVER appreciated, never feels the sense from "above" of a job well done, the desire to serve will wane.  Last, in an environment where abusers far too often think they have found their playground, those who find themselves not in healthy D/s or M/s relationships, but instead with the abuser masquerading as a dom, the "doormat" comes to be. Based on all of that, for the most part the line between being an s-type and a doormat is a thin line, but placed somewhere different for each person, based on their wants, needs and desires.

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: When does one stop being a sub/slave and start bein... - 5/28/2009 7:36:46 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmelineRose

I've always heard quite a bit of discussion in this culture about "doormats" and in particular submissives or slaves saying they refuse to be one, and Dominants articulating that they don't want one, but seeing all these comments on profiles just lately has set me thinking about it again....so....

In YOUR opinion when does someone cross from being a "legitimate" (in your eyes) submissive or slave into being "a doormat".

I'm sure this could get kind of interesting!  Thanks in advance.


Stand backwards and look in the bathroom mirror.

If you see signs of footprints....you've achieved full doormat status.

(in reply to EmelineRose)
Profile   Post #: 50
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