RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine

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leadership527 -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 1:49:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SecretStormFLA The real question I am asking all those who read is this: "Does this sound like a sub who is committed and satisfied with her Dom?" OK, just because it's ever so important to conform in BDSM-land, you're a bad person and a flawed human being. There, now that that's out of the way... laughs When I look at her response as a whole (and let's be clear that without context, it's just as easy for me to be 100% wrong as the other people on this thread), what I see is a woman who trusts you enough to write this stuff. Right off the bat, whatever it is that you've done is engendering more trust than I think a lot of partners ever get. She was fairly forthright in her comments about you... one might even say brutally forthright. I take it as a good sign that she trusts you enough to do that. Many of the comments about you and your previous wife are totally predictable. I like to say that we all get to pay for the sins of our partners' past lovers. And so she is paying for the sins of your ex... this is as it should be within limits. There is a theme of double-standard within her writing that would bother me if it came from Carol. Whether it is true or she just believes it is not important. It's not really possible to be a credible leader with that in play. Were it me, I would work that immediately, first by completely giving in to her position, then helping her to see where she may or may not have had it entirely correct. But I would acti pretty decisivly on the double-standard problem since, at least to me, her perception of that would cripple my ability to be an effective leader. I find a lot of references to teamwork.. "us", "we". She feels like she's a part of a team with you. Good. Overall, she expreses a wide variety of very strongly positive sentiments in the first paragraph. I'm somewhat mystified how everyone else hs skipped over these totally. She believes, fundamentally, that you are there for her now and you will continue to be there for her in the future. She's also got some self-confidence issues around being "new" that need to be worked and bad you for whatever part you played in making them happen. But I also understand that subs are very very prone to comparing themselves against each other and so the hurtfulness there may well be entirely in her own mind. But still, it's an issue that needs attention promptly. Another thing that does trouble me is her feelings about not being heard. Again, whether or not it is true is utterly irellevant. Her perception of that will torpedo both the dynamic and the relationship if allowed to grow. I'd get right on that also were it me. Overall, I feel like I'm reading a story about a reasonably healthy but also brand new (yeah, I count anything less than 3 years as brand new) relationship. It is not going perfectly. Then again, it's going well enough for you to ask for that essay and for her to produce it. I think overall you're doing fine and if you work the issues she's written about, you'll be doing even better. Personally, given that you also had the self-confidence to post some fairly direct and unflattering statemetns about yourself here, I'm betting that you WILL work on this stuff successfully.. both the parts that are within you and th eparts within her.

janiebelle -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 2:21:51 PM)
FR What I see here is a Dom who expected to hear his sub sing his praises, and that's not what he got. So, he is now trying to manipulate the situation into his favor by getting anonymous internet strangers to validate his worth as a Dom. I don't believe for one moment that she wrote this intensely private essay expecting it to be posted and dissected as you have invited. As Angel points out, it is unlikely she would be so forthright with her Dom's, er, shortcomings, to complete strangers. And as GQ said: instead of trying to turn the tide to your favor, just use this as an opportunity to reflect upon your 50% of the issues. This sub is ovbviously distressed, and in ways that reflect directly upon her Dom. janie

julietsierra -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 2:26:45 PM)
And I'd still walk away from someone who felt he needed the input of others in the management of OUR relationship. I'm not in a relationship with every Tom Dick and Harry who might read my essay through your post. My perception would be that I'm in a relationship with YOU... and the very fact that you're asking others what THEIR opinions are about YOUR submissive leads me to be very aware that I'd lose all respect for you the moment that this hit the screen. From there, it'd be a very short walk from disrespect to out the door without looking back. And what do I think of her? I'm just arrogant enough to think she'd be crazy to stick around and give you yet more opportunities to cause her to lose confidence in herself for your benefit. That's what I think. And yes, you'd probably think I'm showing you no respect. That's because you lost it before you ever had it. You see, your submissive may show you respect - if she doesn't she stands to lose someone she cares about. Me? I don't care and have nothing to lose, so I have no need of censuring myself. I have this consistent belief that if someone who is in charge of me needs to ask others...about how to be in charge of me.. especially by sharing things from my heart that I've shared with him.... he has no business being in charge of me. It's from that viewpoint that I'm judging your submissive, your mode of direction and ultimately - you. juliet

BitaTruble -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 2:27:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SecretStormFLA BitaTruble, EXCELLENT questions. And I thank you. 1) The assignment was to write setions about the 5 main headings (which were provided by me) and to share her feelings, without fear of retribution. She was told that her feelings are neither right nor wrong. They just are. That is something I live by. 2) Yes, she was aware that this would be posted. 3) This is my way of allowing her to evaluate me and my impact on her life. Know that she is a WONDERFUL person, yet, admittedly is a bit confused about thins. It is my job to understand her confusion, and direct her appropriately. Okay, given that information, I would guess that she probably did censor herself, at least a little bit. It seems like it comes from an idealized version of a dom/sub relationship rather than the reality of living it. I think the only way I can explain it is to give you an example of what my real-life day to day 'changes' for my own Sir would be. It would include things like .. he doesn't put his clothes in the hamper when he undresses. He doesn't take as much care over his sweets intake as he should being a diabetic. I understand the 'feelings' part and maybe she doesn't see the day to day as important, but, to me, it's a bit telling that it's so narrowly focused without that just living life stuff. She choose to leave that out and she had the opportunity to put it in. I would wonder why. Also, she was quite focused on things that effect 'her' in regard to you that she failed to express things that wouldn't affect her but that could still use some change on your part .. I will recind that if you are perfect, however! ::chuckles:: That's a 'me' focus rather than a 'we' focus which I see as crucial to long term relationships. Does that make sense? Now, that said, the last paragraph did have some 'we' focused. To me, that shows she is quite committed to making things work. In fact, well, almost desparate for them to work and that could be because of the struggle to accept who she is, or it could be because she's trying to be who she is not .. by that I mean, trying to live up to your expectations of her rather than live her authentic self. That's hard for anyone to do and it's no surprise there's a struggle there whatever the reason for it. Over-all, given the assignment, given the probable self-censorship, I think she did a good job. She remained respectful thoughout, but was still honest and forthright and that counts for a lot. I also think that it would behoove you to really listen to what she has to say to determine if the path that you have chosen for your relationship is a good one for her and for you .. that whole 'we' thing again. ::chuckles:: . One that is healthy will enable her to evolve and grow rather than shrink and which also enable you to grow with her. You lead, she follows. That means you set the path. You're the one with the machette hacking the branches out of the way. You're the one who moves the rocks so she doesn't stumble so keep in mind that every time you leave a rock in her path, she has the option of bending over, picking it up and throwing it at your head. Also, if you don't look behind you once in a while to make sure she's still on your path, you might find yourself walking alone without her. It's your path, but she has to make the choice on whether or not that path appeals to her enough to follow it. Make it appealing and she'll follow you anywhere. ::grins:: I'd love to meet her. She sounds like a lovely, albeit a bit confused, lady. If you're clear in your direction, a point she touched on in her writing, she probably won't struggle so much and thereby will be less inclined to pick up the rocks you fail to clear and throw them at your head. One last thing.. I hope you give a lot of thought to that whole comparison issue. Parents do that quite often with their offspring and it's simply horrible for a person's self-esteem. I hope you really listen to her on that, because I can take the worst criticism in the world from a stranger, but a harsh word from my Sir can crush my spirit. If someone tells you often enough that you are not good enough, it's really easy to start to believe it and it can take years, literally, to heal from that sort of stuff. I speak from experience on this issue. Good luck to you both. Celeste

breatheasone -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 4:05:40 PM)
As i have read this, its interesting to see how people react to what *THEY PERCEIVE* as harsh treatment, harsh enough that some said they would walk away from this relationship. Its important to remember that just because YOU may think its harsh treatment, doesnt mean everyone does. For example, publishing a writing assignment (in my opinion) is not NEARLY as harsh as abandonment. IMHO

colouredin -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 4:08:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: breatheasone As i have read this, its interesting to see how people react to what *THEY PERCEIVE* as harsh treatment, harsh enough that some said they would walk away from this relationship. Its important to remember that just because YOU may think its harsh treatment, doesnt mean everyone does. For example, publishing a writing assignment (in my opinion) is not NEARLY as harsh as abandonment. IMHO I guess what happens is you put yourselves into peoples shoes. I could have written that assigment a million times to different men, men I wanted to love me that I wanted to impress and couldnt make understand, oh i may be wrong to impose my sh*t on someone else but thats how it reads to me, and I know how i felt during that time and normally its because the bloke is so wrapped up in themselves they fail to see what they are doing to someone else. I think cracking away at someones self esteem is harsh because you know what that is the kind of thing that doesnt fix itself by magic over time

breatheasone -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 4:15:45 PM)
quote: I think cracking away at someones self esteem is harsh because you know what that is the kind of thing that doesnt fix itself by magic over time You see i don't feel like publishing a writing assignment would crack away at my self-esteem, i feel something like abandonment would, or verbal denigration would. Thats my point, we all have our own opinion on what harsh is.

colouredin -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 4:18:17 PM)
No I think whats cracking away at her self esteem is comparing her to other women all the time, bugger posting this i mean its mean but nowt compared to what that would feel like, abandonment you get over in time, someone you love telling you that you arent as good as other people. well that makes marks

janiebelle -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 4:19:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: breatheasone quote: I think cracking away at someones self esteem is harsh because you know what that is the kind of thing that doesnt fix itself by magic over time You see i don't feel like publishing a writing assignment would crack away at my self-esteem, i feel something like abandonment would, or verbal denigration would. Thats my point, we all have our own opinion on what harsh is. I think that in the OP we see plenty of denigration of the girl. His anger, constant comparisons to those "better subs" he has had, his telling her that he is pursuing another due to her inadequacy, etc. Not to mention the effect this must have on her fear of abandonment. It's pretty plain she's hurting. And the posting of the essay has little to with it. j

breatheasone -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 4:19:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin No I think whats cracking away at her self esteem is comparing her to other women all the time, bugger posting this i mean its mean but nowt compared to what that would feel like, abandonment you get over in time, someone you love telling you that you arent as good as other people. well that makes marks Agreed, i misunderstood what you were refering to.

Joseff -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 5:12:44 PM)
What I am seeing in your post is that you are surprised at a lot of what she said. It's very different to hear these things from the other perspective. You don't agree with some of it, that much is clear, some things you have discussed, and you thought she understood, but are surprised to see she still has that same opinion about. Other things, you have no idea where she gets that idea. Its nothing like the way you see it, and you can't imagine the thought process it took her to get there. If you can honestly say I'm wrong about this, stop reading now and disregard this post. The important thing to understand is, this is how she sees these things. Now what you need to do is go over it with her. Try to understand her thought process. Don't go in to defend your version, let that come later. Let her lead you to understanding of her feelings on these issues. Then, when you understand where she's coming from, you can lead her to understand your side of it. Now, to answer your question, she seems committed, just not satisfied. She's making the effort to communicate, now its your turn.

kiwisub12 -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 5:47:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan [ However, make no mistake -- the issues of jealousy and low self-esteem are Toy's and hers alone. If she is unwilling to work on resolving these issues, then no partner will ever be able to satisfy her irrational fears. Whether or not she is committed enough to the relationship to do the work is something only she can answer. This is where i disagree with SAL - jealousy and low self-esteem come from within - but a dom that has told her that she isn't as good as another, and knows that said dom is looking further abroad would increase the jealousy factor and the low self-esteem factor dramatically. You would have to wonder why any "dom" would verbally denegrate any sub that he supposidly respects and cares for. And for the record, it is way easier to hurt someone profoundly by words than physically. If you don't believe me - ask the OP about instances between him and Catherine - since apparently they have hung around, hovering over his present relationship, and poisoning it. For his sub to see so much good in him - and yet be so unhappy with so much, he has issues he needs to address - and maybe even needs therapy. For that matter, the sub should try some as well - she needs to know why she is staying with a man who doesn't respect her. He may love her, but he obviously doesn't respect her. I'm not sure exactly what the OP is after by posting this essay. Even though we are only getting one side of a story ,there are aspects of this story that don't show him in a favourable light. I have to say that comparing any person unfavourably to another is an ugly thing from any one, much less from a man who has (apparently) has put himself in a position of authority and respect. I hope some dramatic and lasting thinking is going on.

oceanwinds -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 6:05:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: breatheasone As i have read this, its interesting to see how people react to what *THEY PERCEIVE* as harsh treatment, harsh enough that some said they would walk away from this relationship. Its important to remember that just because YOU may think its harsh treatment, doesnt mean everyone does. For example, publishing a writing assignment (in my opinion) is not NEARLY as harsh as abandonment. IMHO Interuption for a second to clear up something: There is difference. A major difference, Breatheasone . As in my case i was never abandoned. I have 3 years in a relationship. It was a punishment. You seen it one way and i dont. There been trust built in 3 years. Sir didn't go to a group of strangers talking about our problems or mine. Nor did he when we were only a year in speak of my insecurites. He dealt with it. Yes, if i was on in a similar situation for only a year and trust has never been built, i would walk. Though i have never suggested that would be her path or choice. I gave the op my suggestion. Back to the topic. Just needed to clear something

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 6:10:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kiwisub12 This is where i disagree with SAL - jealousy and low self-esteem come from within - but a dom that has told her that she isn't as good as another, and knows that said dom is looking further abroad would increase the jealousy factor and the low self-esteem factor dramatically. You would have to wonder why any "dom" would verbally denegrate any sub that he supposidly respects and cares for. For his sub to see so much good in him - and yet be so unhappy with so much, he has issues he needs to address - and maybe even needs therapy. For that matter, the sub should try some as well - she needs to know why she is staying with a man who doesn't respect her. He may love her, but he obviously doesn't respect her. I almost agree with this. However, speaking from my own experience, I know that comparisons between a partner's past partners don't always come from one's partner. (Say that five times, fast.) Many times, they come from within also. Just because she thinks he's comparing her to others, doesn't necessarily make it so. I think it's a mistake to assume he has compared her to his wife or to any other relationships based on the little information presented here. To me, it seems that she's the one doing the comparing and falling short of her own expectations. This isn't to say he hasn't given her some unspoken signals that she has interpreted as him making negative comparisons. It's entirely possible that he has and, if so, he needs to take responsibility for whatever part he may have played in the situation. I simply question whether or not her perceptions are skewed. I don't see any indication that he has disrespected her. Quite the opposite, considering that he has taken the time to point out what a wonderful person she is. Additionally, she has written many good things about him, so I have a hard time believing he is genuinely mistreating her. And before anyone goes there, yes, I've been in abusive relationships. I'm familiar with the mindset. Therapy is definitely in order for her. Couples counseling for the two of them would be well-advised also.

Roselaure -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 6:27:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SecretStormFLA "Does this sound like a sub who is committed and satisfied with her Dom?" Finally, I also ask all who read this to avoid jumping to the assumption that this sub is unaware of this posting. Also, bear in mind that she and I have a rule. If she speaks an untruth, I WILL interrupt her and correct her accordingly. Those are the interruptions she speaks of. To answer the question directly, not it does not sound to me like a sub who is committed to and satisfied with her Dom. The fact that the paragraph about what she'd change about you is the longest in the essay tells me she's most unsatisfied. But it doesn't sound like you are satisfied with her either. Doesn't make her a bad sub or you an asshole, but it may mean you are essentially incompatible, so why torture yourselves (unless you're into that)? I'm curious about your "rule". When you refer to her speaking an untruth, do you mean an actual lie, or just what you perceive as an incorrect perception? If she lies so much you are constantly interrupting her to call her on it, then you have a bigger problem than the one you stated. If you think she has an incorrect perception, then it might be worthwhile to hear her take on something before jumping to "correct" her. Might give you some insight.

emy33 -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 7:14:26 PM)
When reading this and your replies I had to ask myself. What exactly are you looking for? I understand that part of your assignment was for you sub to" learn from unbiased opinions of others". However, what was your original goal for the writing assignment to begin with? If you were using this as a tool to help the both of you and to express feelings and concerns. Then you need to adress the issues the assignment brought up together in my opinion. You can gain an unthought of view point from those unbiased sorces and those can help if you are truely looking to change/fix/work on your dynamic but ultimately it is up to the both of you. You also made the comment that you thought it was very telling how long her " Things I would change about my Sir" part of the essay was. If you look at the actual content and not the length, there are not to many items. Your sub took the time to explain each "change" she would like to see. It seems to me she was trying to express her feelings on why she wanted those things to change so you would better understand where she and her feelings were coming from. When you break it down she listed these things and expanded on the why.. 1.) change Sir interuppting me. 2.) change Sir comparing me to his wife(catherine). 3.) change Sir so he controls his anger better. 4.)Change Sirs views on keeping old lover realationships ongoing.5.) Change Sir trying to make me jealous.6.) Change Sir discussing me with other subs about what" I should be doing or things I am doing wrong." I also noted that she mention it would be "super if I felt trusted by Sir" I'm not sure if she thinks you don't trust her or if she recognizes it could also be her insecurities so I didn't put that in the list above. In my opinion on all of this she is telling you what is hurting her and why. If you look at the list of what likes. She doesn't really expand on those but lists them just like above. And they out number the changes. As for your question, I think you know the answer to it and are in a way looking for your own validation which everyone does in one way or another. That isn't an insult and how people need to recieve validation is different for each individual. In my opinion you both are seeking it and not recieving it from each other atleast that is the undestanding I have from reading the assignment and your replies here. Whether or not any of this helps will again be up to the both of you and I wish you good luck. Emy

SimplyMichael -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 7:39:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: ORIGINAL: SecretStormFLA The real question I am asking all those who read is this: "Does this sound like a sub who is committed and satisfied with her Dom?" OK, just because it's ever so important to conform in BDSM-land, you're a bad person and a flawed human being. There, now that that's out of the way... laughs Storm, I don't think you are a "bad man" but you lost in fantasy at best, but hey, most of us were at some point too. Now, you respect Leadership527's opinion, I have coffee with him all the time and while he and I don't always see eye to eye, we DO respect each other a lot, so take that for what it is worth. You speak of interrupting her for half truths and yet you pretend to be single while looking for other women? Okay, I am going to pretend I read that wrong. The problem with BDSM is that they see people do a given act but they miss the context in which those actions are occurring. The reality is this stuff has to work on two levels, you treat the little cunt like the hole she is today because last night you drew her a bath. You slap her upside the head for talking back to you but last night you held her for hours while she cried about some past hurt from some other time. There is a give and take, a yin and yang to all this. You can guilt a woman into doing all sorts of things, you can manipulate them into doing shocking things, however, if you want to wake up next to her next month or next year, you can't do it that way. You have to care for them in our mixed up way. You don't tell her she is a filthy slut, you tell her she is YOUR filthy slut. When you hurt her, you find some way to feed her emotionally. Sometimes how that feedback works is pretty simple, some of us have a pretty convoluted feedback loop that makes figuring it all out hard. However, the stuff she is complaining about is easy. You are telling her "you are not good enough yet, try harder" and what she is hearing you say "you are not good enough". Instead of using guilt, try praising the good things about her, try rewarding the things she DOES do well, then in TINY steps, work on some of the other stuff. DO NOT DO IT WITH GUILT for this one, do it with praise "oh god it makes me hot when you do x can you give me x just a little longer"? Guess what dude, you are going to have XXX in no time. Some women like a touch of jealousy, it keeps them on their toes, others it undermines , some need a bit of "I wish you were better" but others need to hear "I love it when you try, the effort is SO hot" which puts the onus on them trying so they can emotionally do the work of being who you want. Its clear you want poly and my money is that won't work for this woman. Frankly, who would want to be "a struggling submissive" as in "just another of my many slave girls"? Why not try "MY special submissive"? However, honesty doesn't seem to be a strong suite of yours (hard to hear but judging from you posting what she wrote without strong qualms about the things she said about your honesty) so please, don't just whisper the words in the woman's ear she wants to hear, man up and LIVE them or let her go and find a woman who wants to be your slave girl in a harem.

philosopheradept -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 7:54:01 PM)
Yes, she does sound committed; no, she does not sound satisfied. The first portion makes it very clear that she knows you care about her, that you're patient with her, etc. However, the fact that what she wants changed is significantly longer than any other portion she wrote about does send up a flag from my perspective. quote: The other thing that bothers me is when Sir corresponds with different subs online to talk about me and all the things I should be doing or the things that I'm doing wrong. I don't know how far that extends, or whether its the 'correspondence' or the 'different subs' portion that's significant for her. I will say that reading that in something she wrote to you in a public post concerns me, though. I can understand that she's aware of you posting this, but she also makes it clear that she's a very shy person, and it seems like this could very well be a part of the problem as she sees it. When someone says that they're concerned about you talking about them with other people, that they're shy, and that it hurts their already hurting self-esteem and self-image, the idea of posting something on a forum to get an unbiased perspective from others appears to be part of the problem, regardless of the intent.

breatheasone -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 8:58:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL:janiebelle, I think that in the OP we see plenty of denigration of the girl. His anger, constant comparisons to those "better subs" he has had, his telling her that he is pursuing another due to her inadequacy, etc. Not to mention the effect this must have on her fear of abandonment. It's pretty plain she's hurting. And the posting of the essay has little to with it. j i can tell you that much of what was in that writing assignment would cause me to feel denigration. Some people wouldn't feel that way about it though, and while i may have an opinion about it, its their life. What i can relate to, is fear of abandonment you mentioned. That happens to be a really big and sensitive issue for me, one i'm not sure i will ever be able to shake, to be honest.

TreasureKY -> RE: Writing Assignment from a Struggling sub of Mine (5/29/2009 10:16:45 PM)
I'm sorry, but my first thought was not on what your submissive wrote, but what your goal might be in asking for others' opinions and perspectives. For the life of me, I can't see what possible benefit you thought this might be to her. To be honest, what your additional comments brought to mind was a somewhat clueless dom who expected those reading and responding to criticize your submissive's tone and style for you to help shore up your position. Is that it? Were you looking for admonition of your submissive's lack of... submissiveness? Did you want us to point out to her the adversarial tone? Should we have criticized the number of times she used "I" and "me" when writing about you? Maybe point out evidence of her lack of complete and utter faith in her dominant? Show her how her use of words like "somewhat", "thus far", and similar phrases are equivocal and challenging to you? Comment on how when even praising you she manages to insert negativity? Extoll the idea that a dominant is free to behave in any manner he sees fit, and shame on the submissive who would not support him? Thing is, while those things may ring true from the perspective of some, I think it's pretty sad when a dominant needs to have others bolster his ideas.

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