Dominant's Catch-22? (Full Version)

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SylvereApLeanan -> Dominant's Catch-22? (5/29/2009 11:44:11 PM)

In the time I’ve been active on the CM forums, I’ve seen two distinct attitudes towards certain types of posts from dominants, either directly or indirectly via a sub’s post.  Usually, these posts involve an assignment or task for the sub and request responses/opinions/thoughts from a wider audience.  Often, the replies fall into two categories: either the dominant is "lazy" because s/he set the sub on a task and gave permission for him/her to seek input from others, thereby demonstrating s/he is unwilling or incapable of thinking for him/herself, or else the dominant is "weak" because s/he has asked for outside observations on the situation.  This is somehow viewed as the dominant needing “validation” or "bolstering of position."  The general attitude is that this is a piss-poor dominant and, therefore, deserving of insult and ridicule.  Certainly, s/he is not worthy of a submissive or capable of having a D/s relationship.  After all, the only good dominant is one who is utterly secure in his/her place, has every conceivable aspect of his/her life in perfect order, and never needs to receive input from anyone because s/he’s got everything under control.
 
On the other hand, when a dominant does something and doesn’t ask permission, but merely posts thoughts, experiences, or opinions without apology, it’s often the case that s/he is equally ridiculed and belittled for succumbing to "Top’s Disease."  The dominant is presumed to be arrogant, living in a fantasy, or abusive.  A significant number of posters feel it is their rightful place to take this dastardly dom down a peg or three.  After all, the only good dominant is one who shows humility, asks for input from those with experience who may be able to provide insight s/he has not previously considered, and who demonstrates his/her humanity through vulnerability.
 
Am I the only one who sees a paradox here?
 
I have to wonder how, exactly, a dominant is supposed to live up to expectations such as those listed in the first paragraph without feeling pressured to be a super hero.  Alternately, how can a dominant be expected to show vulnerability without needing to get some outside perspectives or a bit of validation every so often?  Is a dominant not human?  If you prick us, do we not bleed?  In the wee hours of the morning, I’m having difficulty wrapping my head around this "dominant’s dichotomy."  Maybe I'm overthinking it and should just go to bed.  But perhaps someone could please share some insight with me? 



onlyfreelycaged -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/29/2009 11:55:18 PM)

People are people.. there actions aren't always understandable.




Ialdabaoth -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 12:01:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
I have to wonder how, exactly, a dominant is supposed to live up to expectations such as those listed in the first paragraph without feeling pressured to be a super hero.  Alternately, how can a dominant be expected to show vulnerability without needing to get some outside perspectives or a bit of validation every so often? 


They aren't.

quote:

Is a dominant not human?  If you prick us, do we not bleed?  In the wee hours of the morning, I’m having difficulty wrapping my head around this "dominant’s dichotomy."  Maybe I'm overthinking it and should just go to bed.  But perhaps someone could please share some insight with me? 


Look. Dominants are engaged in social competition. One really useful tactic in social games is to belittle and undermine your opponents. All of us, like it or not, want to be seen as "a cut above" the typical Dominant. Well, guess what? We are the typical Dominant. We're nothing special. So in order to look special, we have to make others around us look less special. In economics this is called "comparative advantage" when I do it, and "bad sportsmanship" when you do it.

There is no way to win; not even by not playing the game.



MaamJay -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 12:37:47 AM)

I have thought as you do Sylvere, it seems very easy for Dominants to get shot down in flames here if they appear to ask for help or opinions unless they self-identify as new. I've been on the receiving end of that when I had problems with a sub I was trialling some time ago. It wasn't a pleasant feeling and I understand why some come back very self-defensively. While some could undoubtedly have expressed themselves better, or made it clearer as to what they were seeking, I do feel some have been unjustly vilified for genuinely asking for other opinions. We all seem to love offering opinions ... so why not be equally ready to receive them?

Maam Jay aka violet[A]



WyldHrt -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 1:00:52 AM)

I don't think it's really a Dom thing, more of a forum thing, Syl. Those of us on this side of the kneel get it, too. How many times do you see a sub post about an issue and get back mostly "you should have known better", "you picked him/her, suck it up", or the ever popular "did you negotiate this before you got into the relationship?" (like every possible scenario can be brought up at that time without negotiations taking a couple of years).
It does seem that some simply want to attack the OP, no matter the content of the post. 



Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 1:15:03 AM)

I noticed this a long time ago... and i make it a point to not make any posts of a personal nature regarding my current relationship.

I refuse to subject myself or her to 3/4 of the bull crap being posted on here. The responses tend to be judgmental, that either she's not being submissive enough or accuse me of looking for other people to tell me what to do.

In the last year, I have been confronted with a number of circumstances and situations that I've never had to deal with or face in any relationship. I thought perhaps using the messages boards some would help. Not really...

I've learned that a number of people don't look at the over all picture of the picture. You know comprehend all the sentences and paragraphs combined. They look for that one Juicy sentence to latch onto and pull everything out of context.

I seriously question reading comprehension skills of other people at times. Some of the sharper people grasp the context and give out great advice.

Trying to keep personal posts on a general level can be difficult with some people wanting to pry for more juicy details. At times those details just promote extremely biased one wayism responses instead of cultivate a range of thoughts on a matter.

The one solid piece of advice that always apply is Develop better communication with your partner.

My advice for people... don't subject yourself, your partner and your relationship to the Drama Trolls. Also, just because somebody posts on the message board does not mean they actually have very much BDSM or D/s relationship experience.

There are some people that make posts to the message board that many people tend to follow. Why? Because they actually tend to give out great advice and share their own experiences.

There are number of people that simply use the message board for Social Entertainment, they hop from thread to thread making snarky sadistic post after post.

I've seen where some users will take a certain stance upon a topic one time, then take the complete opposite position next time it comes up in a thread. Flip-Flopping around.

One thing that sort of cracks me up, are the ones that post about how fucked all their relationships have been, or how the keep making the same constantly bad mistake over and over again. Yet, they are the ones giving out advice.

I recommend when making a post to ask for "different perspectives" from other people.

Keep in mind also, that some people make posts to make themselves better. Makes them look like they are bigger better (insert orientation label here). Some people use the message boards as a sort of reverse trolling tactic, making themselves out to be like honey to attract bees at other peoples expense. Yes, some people work their own hidden agenda in their message board use. There's no harm or shame in people making posts to get noticed by prospective partners. However, some peoples ethics are questionable.



Whenready -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 1:23:02 AM)

I'm with WyldHrt on this one. I participate in a vanilla forum elsewhere (toy soldiers, as it happens). The forum is dedicated to the games produced by a single company, and a majority of the postings comprise "x is awful" "the game is ruined" "I'm giving up because..." and the like. Of course said posters continue to buy the products, play the games, and rant in the forum.

Whatever one does, someone else will take pleasure in criticising it. If you are confident enough in yourself - and your partner is - to do things your way - and big enough to say - hey - you know what - I don't know it all so I'm going to check, then like as not you also have the nous to distinguish the valid constructive criticism or suggestion from the screamer.

Be well.



Ialdabaoth -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 1:34:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Whenready

I'm with WyldHrt on this one. I participate in a vanilla forum elsewhere (toy soldiers, as it happens). The forum is dedicated to the games produced by a single company, and a majority of the postings comprise "x is awful" "the game is ruined" "I'm giving up because..." and the like. Of course said posters continue to buy the products, play the games, and rant in the forum.


Well, where else am I going to use the 1,200 customized Slaanesh demons that I've spent a few thousand hours sculpting, kitbashing and painting? :)



colouredin -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 2:02:26 AM)

I think it depends, if someone wants help, like actually wants help I think that it can be clear from the post, problem is so often the kinds of posts you are talking about are from people who have just joined the forum, the often trundle along with their heads rather solidly rammed up their bottoms and it makes answering them hard. This is a cliquey forum, as all forums are. If I posted something a few months ago when I was more present here then I would probably get cut a lot more slack than if I created a new account and posted. It happens to all new posters. Regardless of orientation.



WyldHrt -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 2:46:49 AM)

quote:

This is a cliquey forum, as all forums are. If I posted something a few months ago when I was more present here then I would probably get cut a lot more slack than if I created a new account and posted. It happens to all new posters. Regardless of orientation.

New folks do have it harder on pretty much any forum, but that doesn't mean that the forum is cliquey, it just means that the members have no or little historical context in which to interpret a post. The longer you are a forum member (of any forum), the better other members know you from what you have previously written, and that understanding is applied to the posts you make- both positive and negative. If that's "cliquey", then all forums surely are.




colouredin -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 2:52:43 AM)

Yeah all forums are cliquey in my experience anyways. Maybe it is more about knowing the posters, but I dunno I do think that most forums have a core group of 'friends' and everyone else is peripheral.



WyldHrt -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 3:05:07 AM)

Not really my experience here, but maybe I'm deluded [:D]
I actually found this to be one of the more welcoming forums when I joined, but maybe that's just me.




DarkSteven -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 3:06:51 AM)

Thanks for the post.  I'm reviewing my own actions and I've been guilty of this myself.

The ones that set me off are the "My Dom wants me to determine my own punishment" ones.

I'll show more self restraint in future.



Fitznicely -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 4:30:03 AM)

Oh I've seen this in action so many times!

I think the phenomenon colored in referred to, that anyone with an ice cream cone gets short shrift, is the worst. Ok, they might be new to the forums, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're new to anything else. How are we to know they haven't spent months following the forums, getting to know the regulars but either not confident enough, or not comitted enough to join in? And when they do....BOOM BOOM BOOM! hardly fair, is it?

About the Dom bashing...well, there's more subs on here - or at least the subs are more vociferous/prolific - which raises two questions - how come their Doms allow them such a lot of free time [:D]...or why can't they accept that THEIR Dom isn't the only good one out there?

Me personally, I don't strive to be Dommier than the next person, I just want to join in and share my experiences and *ahem* wisdom with those who might benefit from it. It's ridiculous to say the place isn't cliquey - tho you'd be forgiven for not noticing if you happen to be IN the clique...

I second the Sylvere's point utterly. I'd think twice before asking for advice myself. Too many people see any request for assistance as an admission of weakness and an opportunity for some cathartic Dom bashing. Frankly, I don't need it, so I censor myself. I wish I didn't have to, but that's life. I'll just sort my own problems out. I mean, that's what we're all here for , isn't it?



DesFIP -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 5:50:43 AM)

In the case of the first, setting a sub to ask for help, I don't see this if the sub explains that they've tried several things but are at an impasse. At that point asking for suggestions is often seen as the smart thing. When the dominant seems not to think at all, not to know anything about the sub, nor care to learn - well that's when he/she comes in for lambasting.

And again in the second. If a dominant explains that he's gotten to know the sub, knows her reactions etc and doesn't walk in insisting that this action is the right thing to do with every sub out there, they don't come in for bashing.

Attitude does make a difference. Unfortunately we do see a lot of obviously internet only doms banging on their chests saying 'kick her to the curb' or 'beat her till she can't walk' kinds of nonsense no matter why and that gives us less charity towards anyone who appears arrogant. But the opposite of arrogance is false humility which is equally irritating.

What annoys the hell out of me, and is likely to get my blood boiling is when the dominant thinks it is undomly to talk to the sub. The ones who believe communication consists solely of giving orders, not in listening to the subs. On another site, some years ago, there was a case that showed this up enormously. An established couple, she came in the door looking shell shocked but he didn't notice. He told her to strip as he was planning a long session of caning her breasts. She refused point blank. Despite this being totally unlike her, despite her behavior being off, he didn't notice, just stamped his feet at her refusal. Hours later, him still giving her the silent treatment, he overheard her sobbing into the phone in the guest room to her sister, explaining the doctor's apppointment that day had turned up a suspicious lump and she was undergoing the knife three days later, begging the sister to accompany her since she couldn't depend on her dominant/husband to accompany her.

His lack of attention to her atypical response, his forgetting even  to ask about her day first, his attitude when refused caused enormous difficulties in the relationship. They remained married but lost most of the d/s relationship because she was too upset to speak and his first response was arrogance, not communication.



slavekal -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 6:17:05 AM)

Too many people in our life just want to complain and criticize.  And a lot of folks seem to want to eat their cake yet still have it.  Pay the haters no attention.  There is nothing wrong with a Mistress seeking advice or another opinion. 



KnightofMists -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 7:09:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

I have to wonder how, exactly, a dominant is supposed to live up to expectations such as those listed in the first paragraph without feeling pressured to be a super hero.  Alternately, how can a dominant be expected to show vulnerability without needing to get some outside perspectives or a bit of validation every so often?  Is a dominant not human?  If you prick us, do we not bleed?  In the wee hours of the morning, I’m having difficulty wrapping my head around this "dominant’s dichotomy."  Maybe I'm overthinking it and should just go to bed.  But perhaps someone could please share some insight with me? 


Who's Expectation... the Dominant's or others?   I live to my expectations...  if others consider me less or more is rather irrelevant unless I choose to make their opinion relevant to me. 

So.. yeah... I think your overthinking it.  You putting way to much importance into what others think... and not enough of what the individual themself think.  I suspect that those individual that struggle with the issues you infer are the same individuals that are more concerned with how other think than how they think.



MasterUnknown -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 7:34:57 AM)

This forum is a lot more cliquey then the rest of them I have been  or I currently post in.   I have tried to follow them and get to know the core group of posters before I posted.  Even with the research as such I tried to ask a question that I as a Dominate had not come across before.  After posting  my question and the way it was received made me think twice about posting on here  again. However; that was just my experiance on here.



colouredin -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 7:37:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterUnknown
Dominate


Sorry I am not going to help but its Dominant, dominate is an action



MasterUnknown -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 7:39:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterUnknown
Dominate


Sorry I am not going to help but its Dominant, dominate is an action


I never said my spelling, or grammer was perfect



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