can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT?

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Mistress >> can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT?

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/4/2009 10:02:14 AM

GYPZYQUEEN

Posts: 730
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline

A sub that had been with me in the fall of 2008 was transfered several provinces away..and is now being transfered back..and wishs to serve again...we kept in touch..but I am hesitant to reconnect...yet enjoy many aspects of his service.

IN the Fall we were just getting to know each other and he had been over a few times..he is obediant..acts without hesitation..does exactly as told..follows protocol

BUT he rarley speaks..he has no verbals other than saying
"If it please Mistress" or "If Mistress wants"..or "does Mistress wish to use me..?" when he writes and has been in town

I had spoken to his previous Mistress of 7 years who had moved an she claimed him to be the best sub she ever had..

I am wondering if 7 years of being trained to never speak or look at you can be undone and he can re-trained?

He understands I want him to talk and when I want him to look at me.
I have engaged him in conversation but it is excrutiating to get any response.I tried word games..association games and question games that were short answers to get him to talk about.. self.. ask me questions
AT one point he got into it and got going asking things and I could see an esteem boost.

I value his dedication..loyalty..and how listens but it as if I have a robot
If I thought I COULD RE-TRAIN I would take him back to service again.
But I am not sure.
Could 7 years of training as a complete of object of use WITH NO SPIRIT..be undone to mould him for me?

Is there something I could do to re ignite his inner flame?

HE wants to please very much..but if pleasing means acting as if..
then I do not want that..I want this interaction to come from the heart for me.

I am wondering if his 7 years was actaully abuse...there is indication of this IN his body that show mistreatment and ill preparation for anal play for example( he has been damaged)

He also cannot seem to accept aftercare very well.

any thoughts appreciated...

GQ

< Message edited by GYPZYQUEEN -- 6/4/2009 10:04:51 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/4/2009 10:38:17 AM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

This is a tough one, GQ. Based on your other posts, I think you have the HEART to help this man, but I think it will be a very long and hard road. I think that I would take him out to vanilla things, like going to the grocery store, or for coffee, or for a walk, to help him relax and get used to you. He can practice walking NEXT to you, for instance--I suspect that will be an issue. The outside world has lots of conversation starters, what with plants and birds and cars, so bit by bit you could expand into more than yes/no questions.

Good luck!

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)

Post #: 2

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/4/2009 10:43:49 AM

onlyfreelycaged

Posts: 254
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline

it is possible, I think, but takes a whole lot of work. I can only talk about my experiences starting with being painfully shy... and now I'm almost social...

You could start by gently talking with him, little things like asking about the weather, and how things went in his day. Then branch out into more complex and harder things..

You could try playing a board game or cards while talking.. just to get him used to the idea of doing it..

but, the most important thing is to cultivate a place where he fells safe.

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)

Post #: 3

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/4/2009 10:45:16 AM

Lockit

Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

I don't think that people are throw away's and no one is hopeless, but I do think that it takes a lot of work to help someone who has been this wounded by this type of thing. Mainly because originally before the abuse something wasn't within them that would make them say... this is abuse and it is wrong, I am not an 'it' and am worth more.

I noticed in a couple situations in getting to know two I was speaking with and started some mild d/s with, once the dynamic's started they stopped talking. They were a different person all of a sudden. They had talked and joked and as soon as I started to expect them to address me or account to me, they stopped talking like they had. There seemed to be a different man in front of me and trying to get them to speak before I asked a question was like pulling teeth. I am still not sure what causes this, but some said on the thread I started, that some men seem to feel this is what is expected.

I don't know where some get this idea or what is happening, but it seems there are dominant's that expect this and you are seeing the results of it. I can't imagine someone healthy emotionally accepting this type of treatment for long.

I would hope that the right people could help someone like this, but I do know I am not one who could. I have seen miracles in changes with some, but it took a group of people supporting, uplifting and surrounding the person in love to bring it about. There was one woman that all the professionals had givin up on and they all said she would be in a facility the rest of her life. The ladies I worked with a great deal decided to take her on. 24/7 there was someone with the woman, holding her, stroking her head, telling her she was beautiful and worthwhile and anything they could to reach her. One would be with her for many hours and then someone would replace her and another woman would come in and do the same things. Within a month I think she was responding and coming out and talking and within a short time after she was looking for work and starting a life.

It can be done, I have seen it, but I sure as hell don't have what it takes to do all that, especially on my own. Even when I was better, I took on some situations that were tough, but wouldn't have to time to give so much.

Maybe with a lot of work, love, attention and such, this guy could be helped, but it is going to be a real work out that could bring out some pretty raw emotions that might be better suited to a professional or team work.

_____________________________

No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)

Post #: 4

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/4/2009 10:50:58 AM

MsFlutter

Posts: 1305
Joined: 11/12/2008
From: East Coast
Status: offline

At the risk of sounding a bit existential, I'm left with the impression that his having articulated a desire to return could very well be his version of 'speaking'. Clearly his radar works - he must have felt safe with you and found it rewarding to serve you. Accepting him again sounds like it may put you in the 'Mrs Fixit' role. That's a lot to take on.

If it's any consolation, there are a number of people on this board who have flatly stated that they prefer to avoid the aftercare part. In a nutshell, they want to be left alone with their blankie and their ice cream - they will check back in later !

_____________________________

'Dont torture yourself, Gomez darling. That's my job' Morticia Addams

"The right data, filtered through an idiot, can yield a bad answer." einstien5201

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)

Post #: 5

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/4/2009 11:01:48 AM

OttersSwim

Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline

While love can be infinite, time and energy are not. As others have expertly said, you have to decide whether you have the time and energy to put into this person.

If you decide that you do, something that might help is to couch your assistance to him as a clearly stated requirement of his service. After all, if he is going to serve -you-, you want him to be and behave as you see fit. Make that part of your dynamic, how you desire him to be, and thus his positive movement in this direction is part of his submission. Thereby it becomes something that you and he celebrate together...and it gives you a method of evaluation and exit if he proves unable to step up.

_____________________________

I am on a journey of authenticity and self.

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)

Post #: 6

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/4/2009 11:03:57 AM

YourhandMyAss

Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

You might be able to but he HIMSELF has to have something in him that wants to over come this, and have the ability in himself to do it. Other wise no you can't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GYPZYQUEEN

I am wondering if 7 years of being trained to never speak or look at you can be undone and he can re-trained?

He understands I want him to talk and when I want him to look at me.
I have engaged him in conversation but it is excrutiating to get any response.I tried word games..association games and question games that were short answers to get him to talk about.. self.. ask me questions
AT one point he got into it and got going asking things and I could see an esteem boost.

I value his dedication..loyalty..and how listens but it as if I have a robot
If I thought I COULD RE-TRAIN I would take him back to service again.
But I am not sure.
Could 7 years of training as a complete of object of use WITH NO SPIRIT..be undone to mould him for me?

Is there something I could do to re ignite his inner flame?

HE wants to please very much..but if pleasing means acting as if..
then I do not want that..I want this interaction to come from the heart for me.

I am wondering if his 7 years was actaully abuse...there is indication of this IN his body that show mistreatment and ill preparation for anal play for example( he has been damaged)

He also cannot seem to accept aftercare very well.

any thoughts appreciated...

GQ

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)

Post #: 7

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/4/2009 11:14:16 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

One question that I have to ask is whether this man was -ever- a very social, outgoing, or talkative person. While some of what has happened seems very much to be a response to a very tightly controlled situation, if he wasn't much of a talker to start with, turning him around may be almost as traumatic for him as giving up what little speaking he was accustomed to may have been -- moreso, in fact, in that he's probably been conditioned to expecting that his words will bring harsh judgment, and that can make even the most outspoken person hesitate if the individual doing the judging is important to hir.

I would say play it by ear. Get some assistance from a neutral, scene-friendly therapist in the beginning -- it may be easier for him to open up in a neutral environment where he isn't feeling pressured to have the other person's approval. In fact, if he tends to be heavily oriented towards female domination, I'd even go so far as to request a -male- therapist, so that the tendency to yield to a woman or be concerned with her opinion of his thoughts doesn't inhibit his progress.

The rest of the process will just be -slow-. At first, he may have to do the 'fake it till you make it' thing -- he may actually need to talk to you and look at you without wanting to, and with it feeling a bit uncomfortable for a while, because only the experience of your encouraging him will reassure him that, in this situation, it is OK for him to do these things.

I think you have the spirit and grace to be able to heal him -- and it seems to me that you know to remember to find -him- underneath there, and not an idealized version of what you'd prefer he be, so I think that, if this is something you both want, it can work... but it will probably -be- work, and a lot of it.

Dame Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to YourhandMyAss)

Post #: 8

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/4/2009 11:49:14 AM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

Gypzyqueen, it seems very important to separate out "damage" from "does things very differently from the way I want." For example, I've damaged a woman through incorrect anal play -- temporarily, not as badly as the guy you mention seems to have been hurt -- but I don't think I've ever damaged her mentally or emotionally.

Also, if you project to him that he is somehow "broken" -- and broken because of his longtime Mistress's negligence -- he is likely to resist attempts to change him. He undoubtedly feels great loyalty to his former Mistress, and I doubt he will respond well to a program of you "fixing her blunders."

I would suggest that you phrase these things -- both to him and within your own mind -- as compatibility issues, not issues of mental health or harm. "You want to serve me? I like you. But... what I desire in a servant is very different from what she desired. I'm not saying she was wrong. I am saying I am very different. You will have to do your best to change, because I am me, not her. You have to decide you would be serving me, not your memory of her. That means you will have to talk and be forthcoming."

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)

Post #: 9

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/4/2009 11:54:24 AM

Lashra

Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline

GQ this is going to be a roller coaster ride if you go ahead with this. Frankly I would do it just because to see someone so torn down hurts ME inside. It sounds to me that he has been broken down to feel that he is not human anymore but only a "thing". It will be a long, tough rode to build back up his self esteem and make him see that he is a human being deserving of respect and dignity.

You have to make him see that as a "robot" he has no appeal and is displeasing to you, but as a living thriving human being he is a thrill and a joy as a submissive. Work with him in small steps, reward him when he does well, he will have set backs and you will have to be patient and willing to keep working with him.

Good luck,
~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)

Post #: 10

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/4/2009 1:02:30 PM

SirMIkeSD

Posts: 613
Joined: 3/16/2007
From: San Diego, Ca
Status: offline

Help him, what's wrong with him?

This is the way he was trained and it may work for him.

To me he sounds way more slave then sub and he would be a great slave for someone maybe just not you.

Mike

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 11

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/4/2009 3:22:04 PM

FullfigRIMAAM1

Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline

quote:

I am wondering if 7 years of being trained to never speak or look at you can be undone and he can re-trained?

Yes I believe training can be undone, or rather done to your specifications, when the gentleman has an open mind, undestands you are not his other domina, and wants to do everything possible to please you.
The process may be very complicated, but I am fairly patient when someone has a positive attitude, the desire, and enthusiasm I like to see in anyone near me. M

_____________________________

The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands.-Robert M. Persig

Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence Erich Fromm

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)

Post #: 12

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/4/2009 5:04:08 PM

Scotty306134

Posts: 172
Joined: 5/16/2004
Status: offline

I would recommend showing Him Your post. It could be the basis for an enlightning talk. If it doesn't bring about a behavior change then things probably wouldn't work out. Scotty

(in reply to FullfigRIMAAM1)

Post #: 13

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/4/2009 7:09:35 PM

SthrnCom4t

Posts: 343
Joined: 9/9/2007
Status: offline

My experience with speech and eye contact restrictions equated with mental bondage. Apparently, this is the head space where he feels safest. I guess I would ask why this is? Is it because of his desire to please you (former training) or his fear of 'exposure'. Is it an inability to be that 'open' and experience connection? Does he equate banter with disrespect OR lack of power exchange? Is this the only type of dynamic he knows....or that he wants with you?

GQ, I haven't read your profile, so I don't know if you are sadistic, but if being out of robot-mode were to make him uncomfortable (and you are a sadista) you might explain to him that you realize it makes him uncomfortable, but as part of being in service, this is something he's going to have to work on. (training? re-training? evolution? therapy? you pick)

Did you see each other on a limited basis? Was the relationship completely based in the power-exchange dynamic? It would be interesting to see how he interacts with others. Does he talk, joke, participate? Have you been out to the movies, dinner, music in the park with mutual friends?

Robots do not appeal to me either. I feed off the mental stimulation and creativity of service. I absolutely see service as an ACTIVE activity, not a passive one. I like to be chauferred. (?sp) As Otter suggested, assignments where he has to come up with the method of service....say, creating and performing a bathing ritual, where he first has to please you by telling you about a current event, a joke, reading/writing you a story, etc. Another idea would be to have him keep a journal and share his thoughts with you via the written word? Not being in your presence might make it easier for him to share information more freely. You could explain to him that keeping part of himself from you is unacceptable.

It sounds like you are seeking the type of connection that can transition/float and exist between several layers of dynamics. It's very possible he doesn't know how to do this. (However, it doesn't mean he can't learn---he just has to be willing.)

As someone else mentioned, it might simply be a matter of compatibility of needs and desires. A serious conversation whether in person or via email (if written is easier for him) is probably in order, if you haven't done it already.

Good luck,

_____________________________

Sthrn
Honorably served by OttersSwim

'The sign of a developed mind is one in which two opposing ideas can coexist' - Oscar Wilde.

(in reply to Scotty306134)

Post #: 14

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/4/2009 8:35:33 PM

MaamJay

Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline

GQ you come across as a lady of great heart, but as others have said, only you know if you have the time, energy and patience to attempt this ... and he has to WANT this with every fibre of his being too and be willing for things to feel "foreign" to him as he gives new processes a go.

I also entirely agree with RedMagic, that if you approach this from the POV that his former Mistress was "wrong" or abusive, it will be met with resistance. Stick to "different" ... she liked x, I like y. If you really want to serve me you will be attempting to do y. Show that you will be tolerant of lapses at first, understanding it takes time to break an old habit and consolidate a new one, but that you do want to see evidence of trying to install the new habit. That includes immediate compliance once reminded.

Rather than tackling the verbals immediately (put up with that for the time being), perhaps try tackling one of the other habits that's easier to obey (eg eyes up rather than down) and be ready to remind, remind, remind! Whether it's saying "Eyes up!" or "Look at Me" or making a gesture towards your eyes to remind him ... thank him when he responds to your reminder and notice it and praise lavishly when he does it without being reminded. Keep a note of how many reminders he's needed each day, hopefully as that number drops ... you've tangible signs of progress for which praise can be given. That might give him the heart to tackle what is likely to be more difficult, the verbals. Also he would have been with you longer then so might feel more able to tackle that once you and he have some shared "history" and experiences.

i know from my own sub experience that breaking an unconscious habit (in my case it was rocking or moving a lot when speaking with people) was really difficult to do and Master had to remind me a LOT at first. He did so verbally, and then reduced that to a signal and finally to a warning look. Another technique that was effective was to imitate the behaviour so i could see how annoying it was! However, the behaviour was cut down a lot in the first month, had almost vanished by 6 months, and only occasionally recurs when i am stressed now (5 years later!). That might give you and he a sort of yardstick of what to expect.

I wish you and he all the very very best!
Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

(in reply to SthrnCom4t)

Post #: 15

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/5/2009 2:13:57 AM

Calandra

Posts: 725
Joined: 11/22/2004
Status: offline

I once had a painfully shy slave.

This might seem over simplified, but I began by expecting him to read the newspaper EVERY DAY and to be prepared to discuss it with me later. It helped him to be informed, and to also form thoughts and opinions on current events. Be careful to listen as he talks though, you'll notice that he will start by giving a simple "report" at first, but as time goes by, he will insert things he thinks and feels into the conversation and THAT needs to be explored gently.

It may also help for you to give him research assignments, or books to read that might stimulate him to open up more and more.

_____________________________

Lady Kathryn
Athens, Ga.
House of Phoenix

"Nothing is ever final until you're dead - and even then I'm sure God negotiates" Anjelica Huston in Everafter

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)

Post #: 16

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/5/2009 2:39:59 AM

GYPZYQUEEN

Posts: 730
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline

ty do much for all the great posts thus far..

.b will be here the end of June and I have time to plan and think..in the interim I have explained that I posted and that I really enjoy it when we talk and share info etc..
and that I am interested in what he has to say..and I NEED it to be part of our dynamic..
I also have been engaging in the question "game" where we ask each other 3 questions then 3.more....he is responding to this..

Many things have been brought up in the posts I never thought of such as "he may be more of a slave then a sub"..how to discuss former training without ditsing the Mistress..and presenting what I wish..what is abuse?..was he social anyway?..
how much time and energy do I really have? and more..

ty so much all..

GQ

(in reply to Calandra)

Post #: 17

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/5/2009 9:15:43 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Calandra

I once had a painfully shy slave.

This might seem over simplified, but I began by expecting him to read the newspaper EVERY DAY and to be prepared to discuss it with me later. It helped him to be informed, and to also form thoughts and opinions on current events. Be careful to listen as he talks though, you'll notice that he will start by giving a simple "report" at first, but as time goes by, he will insert things he thinks and feels into the conversation and THAT needs to be explored gently.

It may also help for you to give him research assignments, or books to read that might stimulate him to open up more and more.

Just as an addendum, I wanted to comment on this post. I've had a couple of servants over the years who were -clearly- intelligent, dedicated individuals, but who were not widely read nor were they particularly well educated. Because of the kind of person I am, having a frame of reference from which to understand some of the things I throw out there is -vital-, so I did much the same thing as Callandra describes. I gave reading assignments and held discussion-based "quizzes". Active participation, and expression of opinions on concepts raised in the reading won rewards. "Lazy" responses or failure to read the work at all brought tightened discipline and loss of privileges. It worked out very well, and one of the men in question actually went on to become a Toastmaster, and I am very proud of him to this day.

The opportunity to explore new ideas is something that a lot of people miss out on in the course of their lives, and I've found it to be very helpful in bringing shy servants out of their shells -- which, incidentally, has proven to improve their quality of service and versatility, sort of as an ancillary benefit.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 6/5/2009 9:16:20 AM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to Calandra)

Post #: 18

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/5/2009 10:16:53 AM

ruthiexxxx

Posts: 78
Joined: 1/29/2008
Status: offline

it does seem to be a case of building up his self-esteem and this, together with better communication from him, can become training objectives which Y/you discuss together....and there are some great self-help books (like Wayne Dyer's "Your Erroneous Zones" and "Pulling Your Own Strings" which You can task him to read and discuss with you.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 19

RE: can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT? - 6/5/2009 6:17:00 PM

MaamJay

Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline

Just want to chime in that I thoroughly support Calandra and Calla's method for tackling the difficulties of verbal communication, it has a number of positive benefits. Do the same thing with TV shows, watch the news or a documentary together, then turn off the TV and discuss it.

However, I still think that tackling something else that can be instantly obeyed without the pressure to think and form words would be a better "starter" to train obedience to YOU and to give him a platform of success on which to build. All the best GQ and please let us know how it goes!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

(in reply to ruthiexxxx)

Post #: 20

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Mistress >> can I un/retrain this man & rejuvenate his SPIRIT?

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.250