The shelf-life of honoring one's word

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NihilusZero -> The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 11:37:35 AM)
I really don't have much to add to the conversation at the moment other than what I'll write below and hopefully I'll leave it open enough for other people to add their own input. This thread is an off-shoot of most of the discussion between myself and leadership527 from this thread, which starts on page 3 and stretches into page 4. The main crux of the issue, to me, is the question of to what extent we should expect a partner's word to have a respectable shelf life. Presuming, hypothetically, a partner is promising you something in a manner intended to convey an indeterminable amount of time, how long do you and/or should you consider their word honorable for. Example: I tell my partner I will not cheat on her while I am in a relationship with her. In order to be honorable while balancing it with the realism of people changing, how good should the shelf-life of my word be and, consequently, should or shouldn't my partner expect it to be good up until that expiration date? Responding here to two comments made there towards the end of the old thread: quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP But from my pov, if I have to do something, it becomes an obligation, a drudgery and not a pleasure. If you have chosen to enter into a situation where you are expected to "have" to do something and then realize later it's actually drudgery, who's fault is that? quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 b) Yeah, you're being an idealist Once I had time to get out of the emotionally skewed moment I had last night due to reflective nostalgia, I realized this has less to do with idealism than it has to do with prerequisites. If I'm an idealist because I expect people to thoroughly understand the decisions they make before they make them (when those decisions will implicitly put requirements on them that they are expected to hold true to)...if I'm an idealist because I'm out of my gourd to expect at least semi-permanent honor out of the average human, then my misanthropy perhaps has a bit of a ways further to go. (Note: This could very well boil over into another M/s vs. D/s discussion and I think that would be fine as it may be very pertinent. I suspect seeking or involvement in a TPE dynamic might be traits that yield correlative clues as to which side of the divide in this issue one is likely to fall on.)

IrishMist -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 11:46:05 AM)
quote: The main crux of the issue, to me, is to what extent we should expect a partner's word to have a respectable shelf life. Presuming, hypothetically, a partner is promising you something in a manner intended to convey an indeterminable amount of time, how long do you and/or should you consider their word honorable for. Example: I tell my partner I will not cheat on her while I am in a relationship with her. In order to be honorable while balancing it with the realism of people changing, how good should the shelf-life of my word be and, consequently, should or shouldn't my partner expect it to be good up until that expiration date? I am basing my whole answer on the example that you gave [8D] If...IF..I am in a relationship; and my partner PROMISES me that he/she would never cheat...I EXPECT him/her to honor that promise until the day we are no longer in a relationship. NOw....promises are tricky things. I have never made a promise in my life for the simple fact that I firmly believe that promises are made only to be broken. Life intrudes and promises get broken; that's a proven fact. So, I have never made a promise in my life; I have never accepted a promise from a partner for that same reason. On the other hand; if a partner was instead to say that they would do everything that was within their power to accomplish/stick by something that they knew was important to me or that was important to them...then I EXPECT them to do everything within their power to accomplish and stick by their word. Your actual question though was too open ended and had too many variables that a yes or no answer is not possilble. There are some things that yes, I DO EXPECT a partner to adhere to while in the relationship; yet I also know that sometimes, things happen that get in the way of that... a person has to understand that sometimes things do happen. Yet, there are some things that nothing should ever get in the way of. Just too many what if's in that question.

colouredin -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 11:52:44 AM)
I am reading this in relation to my own personal circumstances at the moment. Prior to this situation I would say you give people three chances depending on the promise, if they are promising to do something and then they don't three times then its probably time to leave the relationship. However at the moment I have been waiting for a promise to be fulfilled for near to six months now, it has been backed out of many many many times but I still have hope, why? Love. I find that love can make us do crazy things. I haven't put a time limit on this situation because I know I am no where near saying that I give up. That is probably to my own detriment really. But had I not lived it then I wouldnt imagine myself where I am now. The one thing that worries me now though is that the lack of fulfillment of this promise is becoming my fault in the persons eyes, this to me may mark the death knell. It of course depends on the promise, if you promise to not cheat then that is it, you don't. In the kinds of relationships I have there is no excuse for that promise to be broken. However on many things life does get in the way of things, people do change, and parameters of the relationship needs to change with it. In the context of D/s I guess a good example would be the changing of a limit, a dominant may promise to never indulge in a certain type of play but if the submissive then becomes intrigued and wants to try it well then the promise needs to change and be adapted. Another example is at a time of personal crisis, a submissive may promise to always do the dishes every day for the duration of the relationship, but then something could happen, the submissive could become depressed, could loose a family member whatever surely then that promise can be backed out of with renegotiation. I used to think in black and white terms, that was who I was but I have found it to be so limited, people arent black and white they are fluid. changeable and fickle when situations change promises may need to be adapted with it. If you refuse to see life like that then I think it leads to constant disappointment, holding them to standards that they can't possibly live up to.

Apocalypso -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 11:56:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero The main crux of the issue, to me, is the question of to what extent we should expect a partner's word to have a respectable shelf life. Presuming, hypothetically, a partner is promising you something in a manner intended to convey an indeterminable amount of time, how long do you and/or should you consider their word honorable for. Until that word is openly renegotiated. While recognising that doing so could, depending on context, lead to the end of the relationship. That's a reasonable middle path for me. It recognises that people change, but doesn't provide an excuse for actions outside the agreed structure of the relationship to take place without prior discussion. If we go for the "word is valid for the whole of the relationship" argument, than how do we reconcile that with the overblown "I will never leave you" stuff that some people seem to go in for? The other option is to make absolutely every promise you make conditional and/or to refuse pointblank to discuss anything in a future context. And that comes with its own set of problems.

NihilusZero -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 11:58:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist On the other hand; if a partner was instead to say that they would do everything that was within their power to accomplish/stick by something that they knew was important to me or that was important to them...then I EXPECT them to do everything within their power to accomplish and stick by their word. This expresses it well. quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist There are some things that yes, I DO EXPECT a partner to adhere to while in the relationship; yet I also know that sometimes, things happen that get in the way of that... a person has to understand that sometimes things do happen. Yet, there are some things that nothing should ever get in the way of. Just too many what if's in that question. Obviously, a relationship is balanced by mutual expectations. There are things I could do, for instance, that would invalidate someone else's promise. Such as, having cheated on my partner when I told her I wouldn't, I don't expect her word to try and make the relationship work if I am sincere in my actions to be upheld. I've related this to obvious parameters that are set at the outset of the relationship. The uncomfortable thing I'm seeing is the mentality that just the interpretation of some things as 'not pleasurable' or (in reference to the old thread) as not catering to the notion that one should still have the freedom to do what they've said they wouldn't...that those thing are sufficient grounds to potentially nullify the promise/word. What's more strange to me is to see this mentality from the s side of a D/s relationship. And...while I can understand your views on making and accepting promises, we all obviously have some level of expectation we bring into a relationship otherwise we'd be on guard that it could immediately turn to outright abuse at any point (and I'm not talking about an incomprehensibly minute percentage chance either). It just seems that some people seem to cut off expectation altogether at a certain point.

NihilusZero -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 12:03:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin It of course depends on the promise, if you promise to not cheat then that is it, you don't. In the kinds of relationships I have there is no excuse for that promise to be broken. However on many things life does get in the way of things, people do change, and parameters of the relationship needs to change with it. In the context of D/s I guess a good example would be the changing of a limit, a dominant may promise to never indulge in a certain type of play but if the submissive then becomes intrigued and wants to try it well then the promise needs to change and be adapted. Another example is at a time of personal crisis, a submissive may promise to always do the dishes every day for the duration of the relationship, but then something could happen, the submissive could become depressed, could loose a family member whatever surely then that promise can be backed out of with renegotiation. This brings up a good point. I'm not saying that honest mistakes don't happen. I'm also not naive to the fact that people change. But, if I'm in a monogamous relationship that I've given my word to when I suddenly realize that polyamory is for me, I still prioritize my word over this apparent self-motivating want to be free to do what will be pleasurable for me. It doesn't mean that I won't likely have a thoroughly informative talk with my partner to let them know what I feel is changing inside me...but at no point do I act as if that excuses me from the obligations I chose.

colouredin -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 12:03:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero The uncomfortable thing I'm seeing is the mentality that just the interpretation of some things as 'not pleasurable' or (in reference to the old thread) as not catering to the notion that one should still have the freedom to do what they've said they wouldn't...that those thing are sufficient grounds to potentially nullify the promise/word. What's more strange to me is to see this mentality from the s side of a D/s relationship. I think there will always be compromise in relationships and the need to make promises that may not be fun to keep or even easy to keep because we have to decide what is more important. If someone requires a promise to keep the relationship alive the decision has to be either to suck it up and fulfill the promise or reassess the relationship, you have to decide if not enjoying it is more important than making your partner happy.

NihilusZero -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 12:04:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso Until that word is openly renegotiated. While recognising that doing so could, depending on context, lead to the end of the relationship. That's a reasonable middle path for me. It recognises that people change, but doesn't provide an excuse for actions outside the agreed structure of the relationship to take place without prior discussion. If we go for the "word is valid for the whole of the relationship" argument, than how do we reconcile that with the overblown "I will never leave you" stuff that some people seem to go in for? The other option is to make absolutely every promise you make conditional and/or to refuse pointblank to discuss anything in a future context. And that comes with its own set of problems. That's funny. I essentially mirrored this sentiment while responding to colourederin.

NihilusZero -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 12:11:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin I think there will always be compromise in relationships and the need to make promises that may not be fun to keep or even easy to keep because we have to decide what is more important. If someone requires a promise to keep the relationship alive the decision has to be either to suck it up and fulfill the promise or reassess the relationship, you have to decide if not enjoying it is more important than making your partner happy. Agreed. This is where I place a heavier focus on the original decision to make the promise/vow (which one does just by entering into a relationship and exchanging an understood set of wants and non-wants). Meaning...I expect someone to understand what they're deciding when they decide it. That, with as much foresight as possible, one has understood all the pros and cons of entering into a relationship and then makes the decision to enter into it with the expectation that they want to remain in it for the long haul. And, concerning that mentality, that is where the divide between idealism and realism comes. Considering my relationship history, statistics do not show a predisposition to long relationships. That would be the realism. Yet, it isn't necessarily idealism, I think, to treat relationships in a manner where you expect to put forth the effort to make it work for as long as you say you will. The gap between what has been and what ought to be...and how 'real' the ability to make the latter happen is (and,consequently, whether one should hold themselves to achieving that standard...even if one fails).

leadership527 -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 12:16:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NZ The main crux of the issue, to me, is the question of to what extent we should expect a partner's word to have a respectable shelf life. sighs This is now the FOURTH answer that I've typed out to this question.. let's hope I dont' delete this one too. For me, at least, the required shelf life would be 80 years... enough to survive "till death do us part". I have never in my entire life met a single individual that honored every single commitment that they had made over an 8 decade timespan. In fact, I haven't ever met anyone who thought they ought to. I have to tell you I'm sure I made a lot of promises to my kindegarten playmates when I was 5 that I have lost track of. In my ears, that's what you're talking about here. In fact, you later go on to say I expect people to thoroughly understand the decisions they make before they make them I do not expect someone to understand the implications of something they say to me today 80 years from now. God might be able to do that. I cannot nor do I expect Carol to. Therefor, any commitment she or I have made would be, by definition, imperfect since our understanding was limited at best. I might agree with you if I posited godlike ability (or even something close) to see the future. The thing that I find most interesting here between you and I NZ is that I don't have any qualms at all about the need to "re-purchase" as you said. In fact, I LOVE that aspect because I have a ton of confidence in what I have to offer. To me, this isn't a burden, but rather, maybe as you said in the other thread, "an affirmation of the good that is" along with a nod to the reality of limited shelf lives on commitment.

colouredin -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 12:18:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero And, concerning that mentality, that is where the divide between idealism and realism comes. Considering my relationship history, statistics do not show a predisposition to long relationships. That would be the realism. Yet, it isn't necessarily idealism,I think, to treat relationships in a manner where you expect to put forth the effort to make it work for as long as you say you will. The gap between what has been and what ought to be...and how 'real' the ability to make the latter happen is (and,consequently, whether one should hold themselves to achieving that standard...even if one fails). I do not think it is idealistic at all to be honest. If you make a promise right at the start that is really important to your partner, one that may not be fun but is more important to them than you then you keep the promise. There are promises that can change and there are those that cant. I am trying to think of an example now, say ok you promise to visit your partners parents every christmas because they are strongly religious, and say you do not really get on with their parents well thats tough crap really, if you make that promise then you keep it. I think that is not too much to ask, and when someone decides to not honor a promise because it isnt the easiest one to keep, or because it is boring or whatever then that shows a really lax attitude to the relationship imo. I think that therefore there are reasons to have to discuss and reset promises throughout relationships I am not sure that simply not enjoying it is one.

YourhandMyAss -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 12:24:36 PM)
In those cases I will try not to make generalized promises. Or promises that can't grow and change with me and our relationship. Your promise should be good the entire time you are with her, and the entire time she believes you two still have a relationship. IE not it's over in your heart so in your heart you're single, so you cat about and go after every piece of tail you can get, but you haven';t told her it's over, and so she still believes you're in a relationship. quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Example: I tell my partner I will not cheat on her while I am in a relationship with her. In order to be honorable while balancing it with the realism of people changing, how good should the shelf-life of my word be and, consequently, should or shouldn't my partner expect it to be good up until that expiration date?

NihilusZero -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 12:26:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 For me, at least, the required shelf life would be 80 years... ...I do not expect someone to understand the implications of something they say to me today 80 years from now. So...which? [8D] Seriously, aside from adequately taking reality into consideration (which I have been doing), then we're still talking about at least a loose and vague sense of time. We each naturally expect each individual word to have a certain shelf-life. I'm just trying to see where each person draws their line at. I see two aspects to this: 1) Coupled with an understanding of reality, how long the promiser expects the word to be good for. 2) Coupled with an understanding of reality, how long the promisee expects the word to be good for. The first is an issue of self-knowledge and devotion. The second is an issue of the individual's equation ratio of (idealism+realism+pessimism/3).

Apocalypso -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 12:28:50 PM)
As an afterthought to what I said before, I think it's also important to recognise that the kind of negotiation I'm talking about shouldn't be a constant process. To use an example. If someone agreed to monogamy and have realised its not right for them, I don't think renegotiation is out of the question. However, if their partner is not prepared to shift into a non-monogamous relationship, they should either end the relationship or, if they decide that the relationship is more important to them than non-monogamy, accept that. Obviously, what they shouldn't do is go out and sleep with someone anyway. As well as that, I think it's equally dishonest to stay in the relationship, pretend you've accepted the decision, while planning to 'work on' your partner until they change their mind.

NihilusZero -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 12:35:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin I think that therefore there are reasons to have to discuss and reset promises throughout relationships I am not sure that simply not enjoying it is one. I support this idea entirely. I've genuinely trying not to strawman other points made in this conversation (and the other thread) but I'm having trouble not deconstructing some of the thoughts to building blocks that seem to translate to me as that: convenience and pleasure + the desire for freedom from the promises one makes + the reality that humans are flawed creatures = the reason to not expect reliability in any long-term promise/vow or to expect that the promiser fully understands the consequences/expectations of that promise/vow as they are making it.

janiebelle -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 12:38:07 PM)
FR The only thing I have ever sworn an oath to do was to love, honor and obey my husband until one of us was in the ground. I managed to do this. Along the way, I'm sure I did not live up to every promise or expectation, those things that "life gets in the way of". Did I fail to pick up the dry cleaning on occasion? Yes. Did I break a promise to stop cussing like a sailor when I got angry? More than once. I think, however, that the promises regarding my colorful vocabulary etc. were obviously not of the same caliber as our marriage vows. Those vows were the only ones he ever asked for. The rest of the commitments were different in a way I can't explain so easily, and yes, they were often open to negotiation, and easily forgiven, because they didn't carry the same moral weight as the vows. Those vows were the "blanket consent" that has been mentioned. That promise was the foundation for all of the commitments made, large and small, through the length of our marriage. While we may have rearranged the blocks on top of that foundation, that foundation remained solied, as was strong enough to support those blocks, no matter how awkwardly we had to stack them from time to time.

Musicmystery -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 12:44:28 PM)
There's a term for someone whose word is conditional--untrustworthy. Sure, perhaps reasons and life and justifications and circumstances pop up to complicate life. But what remains is that person will be unable to give his/her word and have it amount to anything. They will always be suspect. I have seen this frequently--if he/she has a reason to lie, then he/she argues he/she is not dishonest. Still means their word cannot be counted--and that such people cannot even be honest with themselves.

MarcEsadrian -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 1:01:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero If I'm an idealist because I expect people to thoroughly understand the decisions they make before they make them (when those decisions will implicitly put requirements on them that they are expected to hold true to)...if I'm an idealist because I'm out of my gourd to expect at least semi-permanent honor out of the average human, then my misanthropy perhaps has a bit of a ways further to go. I thoroughly relate. Relationships are of course not static continuums; they evolve as people evolve, but that is not to say one's promises and commitments should be written in water, and too often they are just that. Thoroughly understanding and keeping commitments...what does that mean today in our ADD consumerist culture? Knowing oneself and taking accountability for the decisions one makes can't be underscored enough in forums like these, but sometimes when they are brought up, the philosophy encounters a peculiar resistance. The heart of the idea in this thread applies to just about any human relationship, but I think it's quite relevant to discuss it in terms of M/s, where expectations and commitments are arguably more dire (or should be, in theory).

lovingpet -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 1:46:50 PM)
There are only two times when a commitment expires. One is when the commitment is broken. The other is when parameters are mutually changed. One is honorable and the other is not. Both can lead to the end of a relationship. Change is inevitable, but losing one's integrity through deceit or manipulation is not mandatory. I honestly think that a lot of things can happen that do not equate to the commitment being broken. Using this example of cheating, everyone will draw the line somewhere as to exactly what constitutes cheating (looking too long, sharing too much, outright sex, etc.). I don't think it really has anything to do with where the person breaking the commitment believes that line to be. It is upon the person perceiving the breaking point. This means that one must know a partner very well to know what is acceptable and what is going to cause a loss of honor. It isn't the promise. It's the expectations. Hubby and I recently determined together to open our marriage. I did not act on a single thing that I desired prior to this because of my own expectations. I would want a full disclosure and agreement so that I knew I was not violating my word to him. Had I acted prior and informed him later, then I obviously lost honor before him. In our new circumstances, I would expect him to let me know if he desired to be with another partner. If he chose to enact this in a secretive manner, I would still feel our commitment to be violated. I stated my position very bluntly. Choosing to ignore my expectations or me choosing to ignore his equates to breaking the commitment. I may not have the same expectation, but I know what his are and deliberately violating it is inexcusable. We entered our marriage vowing monogamy. We had expectations and promises of a lot of things. He and I have both grown as people and the fit did not remain an appropriate one. Our choices were to end the relationship, which would clearly break our prior vow, or we could adapt to each others' newfound needs and desires which would clearly violate our previous expectations and promises. This is currently an ongoing process and FAR from an easy one. The final decision may be that we mutually decide the whole relationship doesn't fit. There is no honor lost because we are first trying everything possible to keep it and, if that doesn't succeed, we are not claiming to agree to one thing and doing another. In the end, what commitment means and how it is exercised within relationships is very different from person to person, which is why we are even having this discussion. It is a compatability issue. If one person is a lifetime commitment person with hard and fast expectations, they will likely have trouble with someone who has an "as long as love lasts" position with the expectation to be able to renegotiate pertinent areas. It is entirely possible that two people can understand the commitment level of the other and not be hurt by the lower level or smothered by the higher level the other person holds. This is an accepting of differences, but it has to be a true acceptance. One cannot go in planning to change the other. This I am also facing. I am currently looking at several people with different commitment levels and definitions based upon their own expectations. Either I can accept what they are capable of offering or I can't. I will not try to change them or educate them to my way of viewing this issue. I can only decide if, given their perspective, they are right for me. The long and short of this, know you partner and know them well. lovingpet

Ialdabaoth -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 2:06:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero If I'm an idealist because I expect people to thoroughly understand the decisions they make before they make them (when those decisions will implicitly put requirements on them that they are expected to hold true to)...if I'm an idealist because I'm out of my gourd to expect at least semi-permanent honor out of the average human, then my misanthropy perhaps has a bit of a ways further to go. Yeah, this is far too idealistic. One, it's impossible to "thoroughly" understand anything. Two, rational entities only honor their commitments so long as the benefit for doing so outweighs the cost. Honor only exists so long as it can be enforced. Translation: people may mean well, but you can't expect them to actually do what they said they'd do just because they said they would. Everyone can (and will) be betrayed and abandoned at the earliest convenience, barring fear of reprisals or social repercussions. That doesn't mean people are evil. It just means they're people. Work with them as they are, not as you want them to be, and you'll find a lot of value in them. Just... don't trust them overmuch, in the sense that people typically mean by the word "trust".

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