RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (Full Version)

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NihilusZero -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 5:33:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

The second are internal factors.  As you put it, "an honest feeling of  fundamental change in how one wants to lead their lives".  That's more complicated for me.  Because nobody has to lead their life how they wants.  To take an extreme example, I'm 99.9% sure that I'm heterosexual and will stay that way.  Can I say categorically that there is not even a tiny chance that will change?  I don't believe I can.  And anyone who makes a promise that is based on their wants and desires remaining static, no matter how small the chance of change is, is putting themselves in a position where that may not be the case at some point.  Because human beings do change.  It's in our nature.

Yet, barring any psychological and/or mental breakdown, we understand (or at least realize) such changes when they come and remain capable of weighing them in the bigger picture.

I'm starting to get the feeling that much of this boils down to how people personally prioritize the following two things in order of importance:

Honor, Freedom.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 5:41:40 PM)

quote:

Original:NihilusZero

We cannot control what tomorrow will bring but we can control how we will react to what tomorrow will bring. One cannot use the reality of the former to make an excuse for the latter (or, rather, one can...but I cannot imagine any reason to develop any sort of meaningful or practical relationship with such a person).


Yes, which is why I can say that I will do my best to honor my commitments -- but I will not promise what I cannot assure that I will be in a position to deliver. I agree that one cannot -excuse- a failure to abide by a promise made by saying "well, I couldn't foresee this when I promised...", which is why I believe that it is better to not even -make- such promises.

Dame Calla



Apocalypso -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 5:44:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
I'm starting to get the feeling that much of this boils down to how people personally prioritize the following two things in order of importance:

Honor, Freedom.

I think it's slightly more complicated than that.  Basically, I'm seeing three main camps here on this issue.

Camp 1 see keeping their word as paramount.  That doesn't necessarily mean that there are no situations in which they'd accept that things might change, but those are generally extreme situations.

Camp 2 sees keeping their word as situational.  Not in the sense of being dishonest, but they think the world is too unpredictable to validly expect people to stick to something if the situation changes too drastically.

Camp 3 avoids the issue by being very cautious about giving their word in the first place.  Which means that, at the expense of being able to make promises, they very rarely put themselves in a situation where they're going back on previous commitments.

I hope that's a fair summary of the various viewpoints.  I've tried to keep my own views from shading the descriptions, but it still may have crept in.  And, obviously, those are basic outlines.  There's various shades, levels and subopinions within those camps.

To go back very much to my own opinion, one of the reasons I'd disagree with your categorisation is it suggests that freedom and honour are opposing here.  Arguably, camp 3 is actually even less likely to end up going back on their word of honour than camp 1. 



lovingpet -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 5:53:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

All that said, I'm fully aware that my own prefered approach of simply avoiding making these kinds of promises is equally problematic as what I've outlined.  In particular, it means I simply can't make long term plans in a relationship.  And, as you can imagine, there have been several occasions on which I've really clicked with a girl but simply can't be with her because I'm not offering the stability and security she's looking for.

So, in the end, it's just another thing to chalk up to the "topics that require compatibility" box.



Golly, I think I said that on page one along with a lot of other things that have come up since my post. 

lovingpet



LookieNoNookie -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 5:56:16 PM)


There is no shelf life to one's word.

It should be golden.

Period.



WyldHrt -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 6:04:59 PM)

quote:

What is the difference between a submissive that can add new hard limits at any juncture for any reason and no submissive at all?

I never said nor implied that a submissive should go adding hard limits at a whim as time goes on. That said, unless she has experienced everything under the sun already, new experiences may well bring up things never even considered. Again, my issue here is that you seem to be saying that it is ridiculous and unrealistic to expect a Dom to present every scenario, but somehow the sub is supposed to be able to do exactly that and think of everything that could possibly ever happen.
quote:

I'd want go on to say that we obviously choose to enter into long term relationships with people who we think will care for us and respect us based on what we inform them of so that there is a general status of expectation (that the sub will obey) barring any genuinely difficult situations.

Agreed, although the definition of "difficult situations" may differ depending on point of view.

The rest of this seems to have moved on, and others are dealing with the points of intent and reciprocity.



marie2 -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 6:06:14 PM)

I don't believe in promises.  I don't give them, I don't expect them.  The only thing I need is honesty.  People change, their feelings change,  and it's not someone's "fault" if and when that happens.  If you feel differently about me today than you did yesterday, please just tell me.  That's all the honor I need.



SimplyMichael -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 6:24:14 PM)

NZ, I was at Leadership's house when I typed all that, trust me, I am on your side and am in no way attempting to either cast stones or put myself at the top of any heap.

Bottom line for me, is that if I can't look her in the eyes and KNOW there is NO other place she would rather be, NO other man's arms she would want around her, NO other person she would want to be with, it would KILL me to think she was only there to honor a commitment or out of kindness.

Trust me, I lost someone who's hold on my heart is crushing at times, with whom I shared a bond I may never again equal, HOWEVER I would end my life before keeping her bound to me only because of a promise she felt honor bound to keep. If I have to chain someone to me, they are not mine in the sense I use the word, I want them chained to me out of love, out of joy, out of a sense of profound need and desire, free to be with anyone, be anywhere, but desire no other place than at my side.

There is no security in it, no guarantee, but there is pride in knowing she is there for no other reason than because of the man that you are.



NihilusZero -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 6:25:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
I'm starting to get the feeling that much of this boils down to how people personally prioritize the following two things in order of importance:

Honor, Freedom.

I think it's slightly more complicated than that.  Basically, I'm seeing three main camps here on this issue.

Camp 1 see keeping their word as paramount.  That doesn't necessarily mean that there are no situations in which they'd accept that things might change, but those are generally extreme situations.

Camp 2 sees keeping their word as situational.  Not in the sense of being dishonest, but they think the world is too unpredictable to validly expect people to stick to something if the situation changes too drastically.

Camp 3 avoids the issue by being very cautious about giving their word in the first place.  Which means that, at the expense of being able to make promises, they very rarely put themselves in a situation where they're going back on previous commitments.

I hope that's a fair summary of the various viewpoints.  I've tried to keep my own views from shading the descriptions, but it still may have crept in.  And, obviously, those are basic outlines.  There's various shades, levels and subopinions within those camps.

To go back very much to my own opinion, one of the reasons I'd disagree with your categorisation is it suggests that freedom and honour are opposing here.  Arguably, camp 3 is actually even less likely to end up going back on their word of honour than camp 1. 

I didn't intend to paint them in opposition to each other aside from having to list them priority-wise. But, yes, your 3-camp system is more complete.

25 points.



NihilusZero -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 6:27:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

NZ, I was at Leadership's house when I typed all that, trust me, I am on your side and am in no way attempting to either cast stones or put myself at the top of any heap.

No...my reaction was not meant to sound defensive at all. The thread has actually been quite personally enlightening. [:)]




DesFIP -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 7:05:30 PM)

I knew I hadn't been clear. The importance here to me is my emotional reaction to it. The sneakers got washed and he was very happy at how well they came out. The difference is that I didn't feel irritated at having to wash his sneakers because I didn't do it starting from "I have to to this thing even though it's horrible" but "I want to do this because he's upset at ruining his good sneakers". It is all about how I feel towards it.

The other thing is that my relationship is not based on service or obedience. It is based on emotional transparency. And he wants me to be happy to be with him. So if I find that something isn't doable, then we adjust what we do so I can accomplish it, or he changes what he wants. The activities, the actions, are not as important as our emotions here.

Beyond that, I'm in my mid 50's and he's near 60. In the past 7 years we have had to accept that things we had assumed we could do, suddenly we can't. So he can say that I promised I would try inverted suspension all he wants, but the reality is that I have developed vertigo and I can't do it. Did I break my promise? You could say that, but we view it otherwise.



IrishMist -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 7:36:50 PM)

quote:

Camp 3 avoids the issue by being very cautious about giving their word in the first place. Which means that, at the expense of being able to make promises, they very rarely put themselves in a situation where they're going back on previous commitments.

It sounds horrible, but I can honestly say that I would probably put myself in this camp. At the same time though, admitting that, feels so horrid because it makes me sound like a very selfish and self centered person. Dayum.

And yet, at the same time, this one
quote:

Camp 2 sees keeping their word as situational. Not in the sense of being dishonest, but they think the world is too unpredictable to validly expect people to stick to something if the situation changes too drastically.

is the WHY of why I would put myself in the third camp.



janiebelle -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 7:51:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZeroI think you're seeing my point wrong. In your example, I would view his actions as violations of his words and vows. OF course at that point, once the mutual honor has been compromised, it's already rendered null the other (depending on what was expected...but I'm sure some thing can be at least plausibly put into the "duh" category...like if one's partner suddenly becomes a serial killer).


It's a basic tenet of common law, and western morality in general, that for a contract (and let's face it, a promise is a type of contract) to be valid, both parties must have standing.  So, for one's promise, one has the moral right, and expectation, that there should be consideration from the "promisee".  If the promisee fucks up the standing or consideration (turns out to be a colossal fuck-up), does the response of the promiser become something other than a breach of that promise.  I posit that most people's morals would lead them to believe that the promiser's decision to withdraw their consideration is not unethical, nor a breach of the promise.  Because once the standing was destroyed by the promisee's actions, there was no longer a valid contract (promise) for the promiser to breach.
j



SimplyMichael -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 7:54:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I am not saying this about YOU but as a general concept. Perhaps what is being agreed to needs to be looked at, examined deeper, explored more before any commitment is made, perhaps the committments need to be smaller and with experience and success lengthened.


I'm not saying it isn't about me. I am obviously expressing my take on things, which has been a factor in the relationships I've been in. But...let's assume this presumably "idealistic" mentality has been a problem...what, other than an argument against the odds of my finding someone who matches it (which is what the entirety of WIITWD is), is actually negative and/or illogical?



I think it is LA that says this but "how is that working for you"? would seem to address the "negative and/or illogical bit.  I would suggest you find people who have relationships similar to what you are looking for, carefully examine them to see if they are genuinely happy, is the private workings of their relationship actually what you seek, and how long term have those relationships been?  What things on your part, in hindsight led you to someone who broke their word, what things did you do to facilitate that?  What patterns are there that you could change to make it work better?



WyldHrt -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 8:35:43 PM)

quote:

If the promisee fucks up the standing or consideration (turns out to be a colossal fuck-up)

LOL, thanks for the laugh [:D]
quote:

I posit that most people's morals would lead them to believe that the promiser's decision to withdraw their consideration is not unethical, nor a breach of the promise.  Because once the standing was destroyed by the promisee's actions, there was no longer a valid contract (promise) for the promiser to breach.

NOW you tell me! [;)]



catize -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 9:15:32 PM)

The shelf life of a promise lasts only as long as the shelf itself remains undamaged. 
No one knows ahead of time how circumstances will affect us.  We may mean well, we may truly believe we would be able to manage admirably in the face of difficult situations.  But we don’t know, and won’t know, until we are in that position. 



janiebelle -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 9:19:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

If the promisee fucks up the standing or consideration (turns out to be a colossal fuck-up)

LOL, thanks for the laugh [:D]
quote:

I posit that most people's morals would lead them to believe that the promiser's decision to withdraw their consideration is not unethical, nor a breach of the promise.  Because once the standing was destroyed by the promisee's actions, there was no longer a valid contract (promise) for the promiser to breach.

NOW you tell me! [;)]

Sorry you had to learn the hard way, so many people do.
But like a marriage with a good prenup, a clear contract (promise) with provisions for breach of contract, gives both parties serious incentive to avoid the "turning out to be a colossal fuck-up" issue.



Jeptha -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 9:38:33 PM)

Like Marie2, above, I think that the only promise that can be expected to have an unlimited duration is to be honest.

Personally , I feel much more secure in that; I prefer to know that people have freely chosen whatever it is that they are doing than to think they are doing it out of a sense of guilt about keeping their word.


Edit: you know, I have to take that back a little bit. The sense of it is still good, but I think there are times when we do have to honor our obligations just because we gave our word, etc., and I think that is all good and fine.

But in the sense of our discussion, as in the terms of how a relationship is conducted over the long run, say, then I think what I said above reflects how I feel.

And to add Marie2's quote, which sums it up rather nicely, I believe;
quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

I don't believe in promises. I don't give them, I don't expect them. The only thing I need is honesty. People change, their feelings change, and it's not someone's "fault" if and when that happens. If you feel differently about me today than you did yesterday, please just tell me. That's all the honor I need.



littlebitxxx -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 9:46:30 PM)

<FR>

Honour has no time limit.



WyldHrt -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 9:55:48 PM)

quote:


Sorry you had to learn the hard way, so many people do.

No worries, it's over and I'm still standing [8D]
quote:

But like a marriage with a good prenup, a clear contract (promise) with provisions for breach of contract, gives both parties serious incentive to avoid the "turning out to be a colossal fuck-up" issue.

True. That said, you can't predict or provide for every change a relationship will go through in the course of say, a decade, because the people involved will change in so many ways. In some cases, a promise made can be kept, even when it is difficult and involves sacrifice on the part of the "promiser" and even though the circumstances are different than when the promise was made. Other times, the promise will need to be revisited, revised, or abandoned altogether.

What bothers me is the tendency to place blame when Option #2 occurs. The plain fact is that things change, whether we like it or not, and there is a point where putting "honor" above "freedom" becomes an exercise in self destruction. That was the actual point of my (admittedly bad) example.

One of my favourite sayings: "Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans"

*edited to correct a quote*



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