RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word

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SmokingGun82 -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 2:35:06 PM)
The shelf life for my word is, from what I can tell, indefinite. There's an ex I told I'd always take care of, and she's currently battling a cold while sleeping in my bed, with me crashing on a couch. Maybe I go too far with things... I'm sure I do, sometimes... but when it comes to my word, it doesn't expire.

SimplyMichael -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 2:50:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero The main crux of the issue, to me, is the question of to what extent we should expect a partner's word to have a respectable shelf life. Presuming, hypothetically, a partner is promising you something in a manner intended to convey an indeterminable amount of time, how long do you and/or should you consider their word honorable for. The reality is that there are no guarantees and frankly, why would we want them? I think in fact you are asking the wrong question. The real question is what to do about them breaking that committment, can you step back and gain a bit of perspective to see if breaking that committment was done honorably and then deciding if you want them in your life. In an important relationship of mine in my past, I failed to follow through on some major life stuff and she left me. Now she failed to be honest with me about the fact that it was becoming a deal breaker for her, but I had to admit I couldn't blame her and that while she could have acted better, I am not sure it would have affected my actions. So, I had the choice to say "fuck you" or preserve a very intense and rewarding friendship and the decision was easy. Life is rarely about one side being all innocent and the other being the transgressor. The reality is that there is blame on all sides, perhaps you "knew" the committment shouldn't have been given, or that the person giving it wasn't truly mature enough to understand the reality of what they were attempting. I am not saying this about YOU but as a general concept. Perhaps what is being agreed to needs to be looked at, examined deeper, explored more before any commitment is made, perhaps the committments need to be smaller and with experience and success lengthened.

SimplyMichael -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 2:51:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SmokingGun82 The shelf life for my word is, from what I can tell, indefinite. There's an ex I told I'd always take care of, and she's currently battling a cold while sleeping in my bed, with me crashing on a couch. Maybe I go too far with things... I'm sure I do, sometimes... but when it comes to my word, it doesn't expire. So, when you get married to another woman at some point in the future and she doesn't want this ex sleeping with you, how will you navigate those conflicting agreements? Serious, not trying to pick on you specifically but this is a perfect example of this. Is EVERY further lifetime agreement you make going to have this rider in it? What order of priority is "always take care of" your ex going to take? Quit work? Financial ruin? What if she gets a lifetime illness? Paralyzed? Reality has a habit of dealing harshly with "forever"!

NihilusZero -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 3:10:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth Yeah, this is far too idealistic. One, it's impossible to "thoroughly" understand anything. Two, rational entities only honor their commitments so long as the benefit for doing so outweighs the cost. Honor only exists so long as it can be enforced. Translation: people may mean well, but you can't expect them to actually do what they said they'd do just because they said they would. Everyone can (and will) be betrayed and abandoned at the earliest convenience, barring fear of reprisals or social repercussions. That doesn't mean people are evil. It just means they're people. Work with them as they are, not as you want them to be, and you'll find a lot of value in them. Just... don't trust them overmuch, in the sense that people typically mean by the word "trust". Two things came to mind: 1) Preferences and prioritizations: "Two, rational entities only honor their commitments so long as the benefit for doing so outweighs the cost. Honor only exists so long as it can be enforced." But it is possible for an individual to place a sufficient "benefit" value on the concept of honor and devotion that it changes the equation. Actually, I think that's one of my main points and is the x-factor that I'm trying to get at: that, while we are all inevitably hedonists, we are also the architects of our value systems...and some people's value systems will forsake discomfort and the ease of dishonesty for a devotion to commitment which is held as a high emough personal trait. 2) Reality versus odds: We've both had discussions about whether what we specifically seek individually is something that is likely to be found. I think using the term "idealism" here is misapplied because it's being use one-dimensionally; just as a reflection of the likelihood of something. In this case, if I can expect most people to not place as stringent a value on honoring their word, my refusal to settle until I encouter one of the minority percentage isn't any more idealism than not involving yourself with the first person who offers (for any other preferencial reason).

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 3:19:23 PM)
~FR~ I think the key, for me, is knowing exactly what I am promising, and being clear enough about what I'm promising that (1) I can be held to it through the entire stated term offered, and (2) that I am not promising something that I may not be able to deliver. This requires a great deal of explicit clarification on my part, and, frankly, a willingness in others to hear what I am -saying- and not what they -hope- or -think- I am saying. _IF_ I make a promise, the deadline for expiration will be clearly stated. If I don't actually -say- that I am promising something, then I let people know that they can only infer that I will do my best, with no promises made, and, in all honesty, getting a promise out of me is like pulling teeth, because I have a -very- hard time offering something in the -future- when I have no idea what that future will bring. On the other end of the spectrum, I do not expect others to abide by their "promises" at all -- I always presume that others say things to further their causes or to reach the goals that they feel must be obtained, but that circumstance may, at any time, make the 'promises' they've made irrelevant. Because I go into things with such a frame of mind, I find that I don't have the righteous indignation or anger that I've seen arise when someone believes that a "promise" made to them has been broken. I presume that circumstance tomorrow may make any promise made today irrelevant, and in doing so, I free both of us from the ignominy of those occasions, -and- open the door to a great deal of unanticipated pleasure when a promise made is actually followed through on in completeness. Now, before anyone says that this must be a sad state of affairs, in truth it has been -exceptionally- freeing and joyful. I accept what today brings, and don't worry about whether tomorrow will bring something else. I enjoy this moment, for all the joy that it has in it, without bearing or laying the burden of tomorrow on our shoulders, and I have the pleasure of knowing that what I offer I can deliver... which makes it possible for people to know that they can count on me and what I say. Dame Calla

NihilusZero -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 3:22:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael I think in fact you are asking the wrong question. The real question is what to do about them breaking that committment, can you step back and gain a bit of perspective to see if breaking that committment was done honorably and then deciding if you want them in your life. Of course. I've tried mentioning that obvious exemptions weren't part of the topic. But...where on the spectrum of potential scenarios is the divide between "reasonable" and "cowardly"? A person cheating on his partner the moment he feels he's not getting sex enough with his partner (an example of one pole) or the Princess Bride example ("I honestly thought you were dead as of a while ago and moved on"...and example of an opposite pole). We can't just shuffle all expectation away into the realm of unrealism or we forfeit the very concept of relationships in the first place. Which, if we're doing, is an interesting topic all its own... quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Life is rarely about one side being all innocent and the other being the transgressor. I haven't intended to paint it that way at all. quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael The reality is that there is blame on all sides, perhaps you "knew" the committment shouldn't have been given, or that the person giving it wasn't truly mature enough to understand the reality of what they were attempting. There are surely instances where we can presume someone is making a poor decision based on emotional imbalance or duress...but eventually you have to trust someone (an adult) is making a capable decision for themselves. At that point it seems two mentalities pervade: a) regardless of what you've said, I'm not expecting it to actually be upheld but it will turn out to be a nice bonus if it does, and b) I take your words at face value and trust you mean them and will act accordingly. quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael I am not saying this about YOU but as a general concept. Perhaps what is being agreed to needs to be looked at, examined deeper, explored more before any commitment is made, perhaps the committments need to be smaller and with experience and success lengthened. I'm not saying it isn't about me. I am obviously expressing my take on things, which has been a factor in the relationships I've been in. But...let's assume this presumably "idealistic" mentality has been a problem...what, other than an argument against the odds of my finding someone who matches it (which is what the entirety of WIITWD is), is actually negative and/or illogical?

leadership527 -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 3:26:46 PM)
raises his hand I'd like to buy a vowel please... laughs I know you and I kind of started this NZ, but I've gotten lost. Perhaps a specific example of what we are talking about here? In my own head, what I think you are saying is somethign like... "I want someone to agree to submit to me by whatever terms, then honor that agreement assuming no material excursions on my part, in perpetuity." Or am I totally lost? I cannot shake the feeling that you and I should be agreeing here and for some reason we are not.

NihilusZero -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 3:27:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael So, when you get married to another woman at some point in the future and she doesn't want this ex sleeping with you, how will you navigate those conflicting agreements? Serious, not trying to pick on you specifically but this is a perfect example of this. Is EVERY further lifetime agreement you make going to have this rider in it? What order of priority is "always take care of" your ex going to take? Quit work? Financial ruin? What if she gets a lifetime illness? Paralyzed? Reality has a habit of dealing harshly with "forever"! This is where the problem is. The difference between: a mindset that openly accepts that reality can compromise and affect the strength of a promise, and a tone that seems to suggest that the difficulty of reality is excuse enough to forsake the promise. Intent is extremely important here. It's one thing if the mindset is applied beforehand (such as deciding that you don't make promises or provide any moderate guarantee of what your partner can expect from you before getting together with them), and it's quite another to introduce that mentality after the relationship has started as an apathetic backdoor.

NihilusZero -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 3:33:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 laughs I know you and I kind of started this NZ, but I've gotten lost. Perhaps a specific example of what we are talking about here? In my own head, what I think you are saying is somethign like... "I want someone to agree to submit to me by whatever terms, then honor that agreement assuming no material excursions on my part, in perpetuity." Or am I totally lost? I cannot shake the feeling that you and I should be agreeing here and for some reason we are not. [:D] This would be my edited version: "I want someone to agree to submit to me by whatever terms we've both lucidly agreed upon at the outset of the relationship, then honor that agreement assuming no material excursions or blatant violations of those terms on my part, in perpetuity." : Any dramatic life-changing feelings that could arise should be discussed before any violation is acted out. It should also be understood that, barring mutual agreement otherwise, the importance of honoring the commitment is tantamount to anything else.

NihilusZero -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 3:43:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW On the other end of the spectrum, I do not expect others to abide by their "promises" at all -- I always presume that others say things to further their causes or to reach the goals that they feel must be obtained, but that circumstance may, at any time, make the 'promises' they've made irrelevant. Because I go into things with such a frame of mind, I find that I don't have the righteous indignation or anger that I've seen arise when someone believes that a "promise" made to them has been broken. I presume that circumstance tomorrow may make any promise made today irrelevant, and in doing so, I free both of us from the ignominy of those occasions, -and- open the door to a great deal of unanticipated pleasure when a promise made is actually followed through on in completeness. Now, before anyone says that this must be a sad state of affairs, in truth it has been -exceptionally- freeing and joyful. I accept what today brings, and don't worry about whether tomorrow will bring something else. I enjoy this moment, for all the joy that it has in it, without bearing or laying the burden of tomorrow on our shoulders, and I have the pleasure of knowing that what I offer I can deliver... which makes it possible for people to know that they can count on me and what I say. Dame Calla There is a paradoxical allure I've found in this...yet it does fly directly into expectations I set for myself and,consequently, would want in those I would partner with. Yet again, though, I think this highlights an interesting fundamental difference in the way of viewing the world and the people we interact with. One which seems to linger on the idea of whether we can adequately know ourselves, whether others can adequately know themselves and whether we can reliable divine if they are indeed individuals who adequately know themselves or not.

Apocalypso -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 3:43:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Intent is extremely important here. It's one thing if the mindset is applied beforehand (such as deciding that you don't make promises or provide any moderate guarantee of what your partner can expect from you before getting together with them), and it's quite another to introduce that mentality after the relationship has started as an apathetic backdoor. I'm not convinced that intent is necessarily that important. Particuarly if we avoid the genuinely unforseeable situations (serious illness or disability etc.). If someone makes a promise that reality then intrudes on, isn't there a strong possibility it's their fault for making unrealistic promises in the first place. Any promise based on a premise like "I will always love you" runs an obvious risk of turning sour. And if someone makes that kind of promise, the fact they don't intend to break it at the time doesn't really get them off the hook for me. At the end of the day, nobody has to give their word on anything. Much like Dame Calla, I'm very cautious about doing so, which means I've never had to break it.

NihilusZero -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 3:47:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso If someone makes a promise that reality then intrudes on, isn't there a strong possibility it's their fault for making unrealistic promises in the first place. What type of "reality" are we talking about here, though? There is obviously a difference between an honest feeling of fundamental change in how one wants to lead their lives and just plain lazy inconvenience. I think it makes a big difference in the type of person someone is when we can determine where on that line of "reality" they would feel justified backing out of their word.

IrishMist -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 4:01:53 PM)
quote: Obviously, a relationship is balanced by mutual expectations. There are things I could do, for instance, that would invalidate someone else's promise. Such as, having cheated on my partner when I told her I wouldn't, I don't expect her word to try and make the relationship work if I am sincere in my actions to be upheld. Now see, I think that this scenario here is based only on YOUR own thoughts, ideas, expectations, etc. What I mean is; take cheating for example....I have MY own definitions that I would use to define cheating; they merged with those of my late husband...if HE had cheated, I still would not think that it invalidaterd ALL of what I put into or was putting into the relationship. I would not consider the relationship over. I would instead be looking to see what was WRONG in the relationship that he felt the need to do this. I don't think that the breaking of 'promises' ( for lack of a better word ) should signify the end. But that is just me; others feel differenly, as we all know [&:]

SmokingGun82 -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 4:35:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael So, when you get married to another woman at some point in the future and she doesn't want this ex sleeping with you, how will you navigate those conflicting agreements? Serious, not trying to pick on you specifically but this is a perfect example of this. Is EVERY further lifetime agreement you make going to have this rider in it? What order of priority is "always take care of" your ex going to take? Quit work? Financial ruin? What if she gets a lifetime illness? Paralyzed? Reality has a habit of dealing harshly with "forever"! I don't take it as picking on- I understand the commitment I've made, and I try to choose my words carefully when making promises. In this case, she has a lifetime illness and paralysis is in the future for her. When she was diagnosed, not long after we'd moved in together, I made the statement I'd take care of her as long as I can... which would probably cover financial ruin, but I can say that it'd take a lot for me to break off. As for someone I married... first, we have separate bedrooms, but a weird confluence of events has left hers unavailable for a short amount of time. She was going to be couch surfing, but I'd rather have her cordoned off than contaminate the entire place. I also wouldn't marry someone who doesn't understand that she's a part of the deal at this point- my best friend, who happens to be an ex, who needs help, and who doesn't really have anywhere else to go. I'm sure there is a limit... and to be fair, I believe my original wording with her was "as long as I can." If I'm financially ruined, and can no longer take care of myself, then she's kinda screwed. You're absolutely right that time has a way of messing with people and taking "forever" and twisting it about. But this is a case of I didn't reveal enough in the original answer, rather than I didn't think about future repercussions.

WyldHrt -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 4:36:39 PM)
quote: If I'm an idealist because I expect people to thoroughly understand the decisions they make before they make them (when those decisions will implicitly put requirements on them that they are expected to hold true to)...if I'm an idealist because I'm out of my gourd to expect at least semi-permanent honor out of the average human, then my misanthropy perhaps has a bit of a ways further to go. I'm going to come at this from a slightly different direction (knowing me, that direction is probably "left field" [8D]). Nihilus, you said something in another thread that bothered me, but I didn't want to derail that thread by commenting on it. quote: The only important discussions that should have happened before the relationship began are *those concerning things which the sub felt she could not* do. Hard limits. Anything else after that is game for the D-type** (heck, many subs/slaves even tell of how, in a sufficiently safe relationship and with enough trust, they've even crossed over hard limit lines and had positive experiences). It's not on the D-type to imagine every possible scenario he would want to exert control over and present it beforehand to the sub. Not only would that be ridiculous, it would be thoroughly unrealistic. Soooo... expecting the D-type to present every possible scenario is ridiculous and unrealistic, but expecting the s-type to be able to imagine every possible scenario/ activity that could/ would be a hard limit before beginning a relationship isn't? How does that work? To put the above into the context of this thread, I think it is unrealistic to think that new experiences and events won't lead to change as regards promises made in a living, evolving relationship. Unless one is psychic, there really isn't a way to forsee every possibility that may arise, sometimes years down the road. Example: When got married a decade or so ago, I promised to love, honor, cherish and all, till death do us part. Did I mean it when I promised all that? Yeah, I did. Unfortunately, my crystal ball wasn't working at the time, or I would have added "unless you get arrested twice, spend every penny we make (including the bill money) on yourself, and cut me off both physically and emotionally". That said, I honored my promise (much to my own detriment) and stayed years after I should have walked out. That is a mistake I will not make again.

NihilusZero -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 4:50:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt Soooo... expecting the D-type to present every possible scenario is ridiculous and unrealistic, but expecting the s-type to be able to imagine every possible scenario/ activity that could/ would be a hard limit before beginning a relationship isn't? How does that work? What is the difference between a submissive that can add new hard limits at any juncture for any reason and no submissive at all? I'd want go on to say that we obviously choose to enter into long term relationships with people who we think will care for us and respect us based on what we inform them of so that there is a general status of expectation (that the sub will obey) barring any genuinely difficult situations. quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt To put the above into the context of this thread, I think it is unrealistic to think that new experiences and events won't lead to change as regards promises made in a living, evolving relationship. Unless one is psychic, there really isn't a way to forsee every possibility that may arise, sometimes years down the road. Of course. But, yet again, the difference is between someone who's taken that into account and made a vow with as thorough an understanding of what it means to do so and maybe realizes that something could make things difficult down the road and someone who uses the malleability of human experience over time to make an alibi for themselves for being insincere to their word. I went into this a bit more in detail in my bulleted post above. quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt Example: When got married a decade or so ago, I promised to love, honor, cherish and all, till death do us part. Did I mean it when I promised all that? Yeah, I did. Unfortunately, my crystal ball wasn't working at the time, or I would have added "unless you get arrested twice, spend every penny we make (including the bill money) on yourself, and cut me off both physically and emotionally". I think you're seeing my point wrong. In your example, I would view his actions as violations of his words and vows. OF course at that point, once the mutual honor has been compromised, it's already rendered null the other (depending on what was expected...but I'm sure some thing can be at least plausibly put into the "duh" category...like if one's partner suddenly becomes a serial killer).

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 5:11:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso If someone makes a promise that reality then intrudes on, isn't there a strong possibility it's their fault for making unrealistic promises in the first place. What type of "reality" are we talking about here, though? There is obviously a difference between an honest feeling of fundamental change in how one wants to lead their lives and just plain lazy inconvenience. I think it makes a big difference in the type of person someone is when we can determine where on that line of "reality" they would feel justified backing out of their word. To me, "reality" is that we do not know what tomorrow will bring. Therefore, it is irresponsible to promise on tomorrow (or the next moment) because we cannot control that time, or the turning of life. To me, a promise to love someone 'forever', or unto death, or whatever fancy words we find to promise more than the moment, is a lie, formed and shaped from the very moment it is uttered. We can convince ourselves that it isn't a lie, and perhaps someone else, that it isn't a lie, but any time we promise what we cannot assure (and the future is one of those things we have no real control over), we are lying to both ourselves and 'the other'. One may promise that one loves someone now, and will do one's best to remember to cherish what we have for as long as love may last -- but beyond that, any promise of 'ever after' is a deceit, because we cannot promise what we do not control, and we do not control existence, future, time, and circumstance. Is it difficult not to tell someone what they desperately want to hear? -- yes, I think that it is -very- difficult, but sometimes, being responsible, honorable, honest, and forthright means following the most difficult of paths. For those who wonder.... yes, I was married. Our vows were original, because I couldn't bring myself to make the promise of 'ever after'. We promised "for as long as love may last" He believed that a piece of paper and wedding ring would take away all my bad habits, and I believed his mind would open over time, so really, I think we both lied to ourselves and one another on many levels... but at least we did not promise to continue the farce "forever"... so when the end came, we ended with a measure of peace, and no sense between either of us that we had deceived one another in at least this one thing, and we could walk away without rancor--plus having the chance to see one another as we really -are-... which reinforced, for me, the need to know myself before I offer anything to anyone else. Dame Calla

Apocalypso -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 5:13:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero What type of "reality" are we talking about here, though? There is obviously a difference between an honest feeling of fundamental change in how one wants to lead their lives and just plain lazy inconvenience. I think it makes a big difference in the type of person someone is when we can determine where on that line of "reality" they would feel justified backing out of their word. I think there's two main types of "reality" that can come into play. The first would be external factors. If someone has given their word that they'll be the financial provider for a relationship, and then loses their job through no fault of their own, I don't think they're responsible for that change. If it's simply that they've been laid off, I'd expect them to search for a new job ASAP. But if, say, they've been in an accident and genuinely can't work, I think it's fair to say that promise is null through no fault of their own. The second are internal factors. As you put it, "an honest feeling of fundamental change in how one wants to lead their lives". That's more complicated for me. Because nobody has to lead their life how they wants. To take an extreme example, I'm 99.9% sure that I'm heterosexual and will stay that way. Can I say categorically that there is not even a tiny chance that will change? I don't believe I can. And anyone who makes a promise that is based on their wants and desires remaining static, no matter how small the chance of change is, is putting themselves in a position where that may not be the case at some point. Because human beings do change. It's in our nature. And bearing that in mind, I'm not sure how it can be said to be unacceptable to change a relationship based on finding the agreed strictures inconvenient, while finding it valid to change them based on desires and wants. For me, assuming the conditions on negotiation I mentioned earlier are met, either it is logical that both are valid, or neither is. All that said, I'm fully aware that my own prefered approach of simply avoiding making these kinds of promises is equally problematic as what I've outlined. In particular, it means I simply can't make long term plans in a relationship. And, as you can imagine, there have been several occasions on which I've really clicked with a girl but simply can't be with her because I'm not offering the stability and security she's looking for. I'd also say my approach is out of the question for anybody who has or wants children. It's based on a deliberate avoidance of long term committments. Whereas I'd think it was completely out of order if someone decided they didn't want to be a parent anymore a year down the line.

NihilusZero -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 5:24:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW To me, "reality" is that we do not know what tomorrow will bring. Therefore, it is irresponsible to promise on tomorrow (or the next moment) because we cannot control that time, or the turning of life. We cannot control what tomorrow will bring but we can control how we will react to what tomorrow will bring. One cannot use the reality of the former to make an excuse for the latter (or, rather, one can...but I cannot imagine any reason to develop any sort of meaningful or practical relationship with such a person).

NihilusZero -> RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word (6/6/2009 5:30:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso All that said, I'm fully aware that my own prefered approach of simply avoiding making these kinds of promises is equally problematic as what I've outlined. In particular, it means I simply can't make long term plans in a relationship. And, as you can imagine, there have been several occasions on which I've really clicked with a girl but simply can't be with her because I'm not offering the stability and security she's looking for. So, in the end, it's just another thing to chalk up to the "topics that require compatibility" box.

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