RE: For those on the political left....new worries

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Crush -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 9:48:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/elections/euro/09/flash/html/eu.stm follow this link to see the percentage change in share of the vote by European party grouping in the EU Parliament since the last vote - you can also click to see the changes in share by party in each country. overall, the EPP (the centre right grouping) was down 1.4% - this is hardly evidence of a shift back right. What is (so far thankfully minor) evidence of a shift right is the success of far right parties in several countries, the kind of people who think and in some cases say, that gypsies, Jews, Muslims et al ought to be "dealt with". Aside from them one could count Euro sceptic parties into the right perhaps, although these parties are at pains to indicate they are neither left nor right, seeking at the same time more power to the people and greater national sovereignty in their preference for a different kind of Union. these are the numbers - the numbers have no bias - the numbers disprove the premise that Europe is moving right in any way that might be a comfort to the US right (which incidentally would be right of the EPP in Europe). That Obama is moving left is true - but he is moving towards the EPP position, not to some idealistic socialist utopia as feared in a Fox news special near you. E Finally, a post I can review...thank you.

Crush -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 9:51:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666 Why are so many of you acting like "more conservative" is a good thing? It's a very bad thing. I would think that people in alternative lifestyles, and especially those of us who are gay or trans, would be more attuned to the liberal side of things. Conservative is bad, liberal is good. Socialism is the only way we can really protect people. It works a helluva lot better than capitalism, especially when it comes to the big important thing: health care. Actually, as I've stated in other posts, I feel that they are BOTH wrong. Too much government or too much morality control. Less governmental intervention. More personal reliance. But hey, I'm just an old fart... I don't see Health Care as a "Right" for anyone. If it "needs" to be mandated, then we should get the same level of care as our governmental officials get. Or they should get the same level that we'll get.

Politesub53 -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 10:30:16 AM)
Crush, just a point to remember, but the European elections often throw up different results than a general election. Some voters use these elections as a protest vote, at least here in the UK. For instance, UKIP are unlikely to do as well in the next election.

rulemylife -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 11:39:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Crush quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Your profile says you live in Florida. Did you move? Nice diversion, Alinsky would be proud. Which of the Rule for Radicals are you attempting to use? I'm guessing #3, #4, #5. Unfortunately, #7 seems to apply the most .... Or perhaps you misunderstood or I wasn't clear enough...text has a way of missing the finer points. How about: I live HERE too, in the US. For those that don't get the point: I live where Pres. Obama is our leader and I see what he is doing in terms of taking us left. I have read about Europe, the "left" of Europe and the social programs in different countries. I see where Obama is heading* towards the "left" with his proposals in the US. By analogy, the EU is starting to reject the path that Obama wants to take us down...one that has been travelled already by the EU and has found to be a dead end. But Obama wants to go down that path because he doesn't see it as the dead end he is being told it is by the EU. Socialized medicine. Wage czars. Governmentally-owned industries. Mandated service. (See http://www.barackobama.com/ , http://www.whitehouse.gov ) The whole "cradle to grave" thing. But hey, a lot of people on this board are all for those things, bless their hearts. But I'm among them. Certainly we need to get some things changed, but I'm not sold on the extent to which Pres Obama wants to change things. And still, no data to show otherwise, as I requested, rule. The Rules for Radicals? That's it mister, no more Fox News for you, and from now on your mom and I are going block your access to conservative blogs on the computer. [sm=shame.gif] Ya know, that thar book lairning is a mighty fine thing, but I think it is a little presumptuous to be telling people they are wrong about the political system they live with daily, which you don't.

Cagey18 -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 12:22:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Ya know, that thar book lairning is a mighty fine thing, but I think it is a little presumptuous to be telling people they are wrong about the political system they live with daily, which you don't. Yeah, but he has, you know, websites that support his view. I mean, really now, what do people who live there know about their own government, compared to these authoritative websites... (what, you say the websites don't talk about European governments, but rather just how liberal President Obama is? Come now, don't go distracting us with facts...)

Apocalypso -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 12:28:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Crush Well, It seems that the European Socialists might become Democrats, so even closer A name change for strategic purposes doesn't necessarily reflect ideology. In the same way as the German Democratic Republic weren't really democratic. And there's several far right parties who use the name "liberal". (Just as a point of information, as a member of the ultraleft, I'm fully aware of the differences between us, the far left and the centre left).

Mezrem -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 12:29:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife The Rules for Radicals? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals

NorthernGent -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 1:25:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Crush And I live here for fuck's sake too Yes Crush and you're the one informing us of the seismic shift to the right in Europe. quote: ORIGINAL: Crush ....your research other than biased personal experience? I couldn't possibly attempt to compete with your research Crush as you've obviously reached the heights of objectivity while others are merely aspiring to your transendence of earthly reason. As it happens however.... You really need to place in this context. The majority of Europeans are not interested in the European Parliament - something like 43% turned out to vote and in the UK it was something like 35%. That really is the clearest of indictment of politics in Europe i.e. these European elections are not as important as national elections and they certainly aren't a cast iron yardstick of how people will vote at national elections. For instance the expenses farce in the UK was a key factor in the poor showing of the Labour Party - the government copped for it. To add polling figures suggest that the working classes and lower middle classes - traditional centre-left voters - shunned the voting booths so the elections were skewed towards the comfortable and well off i.e. traditional centre right voters. In sum: these elections are not 'evidence' of a seismic shift to the right in Europe and as I stated earlier England is and always has been right of centre anyway (perhaps bar the aftermath of WW2). P.S. Social Democrat parties did well in Greece Sweden Slovakia and Denmark.

NorthernGent -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 1:30:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Obama's policies do not differ markedly from the New Labour's platform which is a decidedly right of center position. No. New Labour is a centre ground party - possibly just left of centre on economic matters. P.S. The British Conservative Party is and always has been to the right of New Labour. We could discuss policies however I think you have a novice's grasp of British politics (based on the above post) and we wouldn't get very far. If the British Conservative Party is of interest to you I'd advise you to do a bit more digging - you'd be surprised at just how right wing they are - by anyone's standards.

rulemylife -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 2:08:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mezrem quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife The Rules for Radicals? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals He gave me a link to it too. I wasn't questioning what it was about, only why he chose to use it in this conversation. Thanks anyway.

DomKen -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 2:11:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Obama's policies do not differ markedly from the New Labour's platform which is a decidedly right of center position. No. New Labour is a centre ground party - possibly just left of centre on economic matters. P.S. The British Conservative Party is and always has been to the right of New Labour. We could discuss policies however I think you have a novice's grasp of British politics (based on the above post) and we wouldn't get very far. If the British Conservative Party is of interest to you I'd advise you to do a bit more digging - you'd be surprised at just how right wing they are - by anyone's standards. New Labour does not advocate undoing all the stuff Thatcher broke, education and health care mostly. that is not a true leftist psoition. You can call it center or center left but I don't know of any leftists in England, Scotland or the US who agrees with Blair's policies except that it was better than the alternative, much as the left only supported Bill Clinton over because we had no better option. The Tories are well right of center but if you think they are comparable to the GOP then you have no idea how far right the GOP really is. For example the TEXAs state GOP's platform for 2008 includes these gems: We believe that traditional marriage is a legal and moral commitment between a natural man and a natural woman. We support legislation that would make it a felony to issue a marriage license to a same-sex couple and for any civil official to perform a marriage ceremony for a same-sex couple. We support the objective teaching and equal treatment of scientific strengths and weaknesses of scientific theories, including Intelligent Design. (IOW they want creationism taught in all schools as if it was scientific) We pledge to exert our influence toward a return to the original intent of the First Amendment and dispel the myth of the separation of church and state. We believe that properly applied capital punishment is legitimate, is an effective deterrent, and should be swift and unencumbered. We believe the Minimum Wage Law should be repealed and that wages should be determined by the free market conditions prevalent in each individual market. development of a practical, limited, and temporary worker program that does not serve as an automatic path to citizenship The Tories may be right wing but they don't go that far.

numuncular -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 2:41:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Crush quote: ORIGINAL: numuncular quote: ORIGINAL: Crush No doubt that Socialism in France is different than in Germany or Britain or ..... The point is that Obama has every intent, based on his websites, of bringing us down a Socialist path. As far as France? Well, I won't know until I only have to work 35 hours, get 8 weeks of vacation, 12 holidays, etc. Pres Obama & Co are already trying to go that path...forced vacation pay, even for part time workers. Nationalized Health care. True, he may not get as far "Left", that I'll concede. But not because Pres Obama & Co. wouldn't want to go that far "Left", which is the point I'm trying to make. I'm confused, do you think "vacation" pay is a bad thing or not? as to the original post, the left didnt do 'that' bad, the turnout was miserable and low turnouts always favour right wing parties, a quick look at the chart for the final parliament shows its still fairly evenly balanced once you add in the greens, the true socialists and the various insane far right parties Government mandated vacation pay? Yes, I think that is a bad thing. why on earth would someone hold such an odd view? aside from moral issues, who in their right mind would believe a worker would be more productive without a decent holiday?

numuncular -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 2:43:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen The Tories may be right wing but they don't go that far. whilst your correct about new labour moving to the centre right on quite a lot of things (it is arguable really only on progress made with low paid full time workers) the tories are horribly right wing! the only reason they can appear not to be is by not announcing very much in the way of policy detail yet.

rfd1 -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 2:43:22 PM)
In politics demographics is destiny, that is something Israel understands very well. The Europeans and Americans apparently, at least their elites, do not. So America and Europe and eventually Australia will be unrecognizable and these modest gains by so-called right are P***ing in the wind UNLESS and UNTIL immigration is stopped.

NorthernGent -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 2:50:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen New Labour does not advocate undoing all the stuff Thatcher broke, education and health care mostly New Labour certainly does and has. When they were elected in 1997 there was a considerable amount of reserves or 'war chest' as termed over here. New Labour invested heavily in health and education. Granted they do not advocate full state control of health and education - they believe that the private sector should be involved too - a position I agree with. I called it centre ground. There has been a lot of investment/redistribution of wealth in the North of England that wouldn't have happened were the Tories still in power. New Labour can't really go 'round advocating a left-wing position anyway as they'd never get elected yet they certainly have redistributed wealth. The real surprise has been the stance on Iraq terrorism and detaining people without a trial for a period of 28 days - certainly a move to the right in that regard. quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen The Tories are well right of center but if you think they are comparable to the GOP then you have no idea how far right the GOP really is. The Tories are in the process of forming an anti-European Federalism alliance with openly racist parties in Europe. Capital Punishment in England is 50/50 and I'd bet my last penny that the majority of those who agree vote conservative. The Tories have been known to spy on political groups and anyone - such as the unions - who gets above their station are labeled the 'enemy within' and harassed by the media and secret services. The whole British establishment - from the monarchy to the church of england to the political values of this country - are instinctively conservative. I wouldn't assume that the Church isn't important here; they're not in your face and it's all done in a typically understated British fashion but the Church of England is a church of shires with instinctively conservative rural values. These people are appointed to the House of Lords in order to ensure that the nation doesn't stray to far from traditional conservative values; people think they're harmless but the British establishment are masters at keeping it all under wraps. The leader of the Conservative Party is harking back to Victorian times and welfare being voluntary and run by charities. The Tories are strong opponents of the minimum wage and strong advocates of the free market. As said - you'd be surprised.

DreamGoddess666 -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 4:03:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Crush Actually, as I've stated in other posts, I feel that they are BOTH wrong. Too much government or too much morality control. Less governmental intervention. More personal reliance. But hey, I'm just an old fart... I don't see Health Care as a "Right" for anyone. If it "needs" to be mandated, then we should get the same level of care as our governmental officials get. Or they should get the same level that we'll get. You don't think health care should be a right? Wow, I don't even know what to say to that. Health care damn well should be a right. Every person has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Health care would fall under "life". All people deserve proper health care. We need government mandates in order to stop absolute crap from happening. Canada and Denmark have it right. Might be more difficult with a bigger population, but we need to pull it off somehow.

DreamGoddess666 -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 4:09:09 PM)
I'd like to add that personal reliance is a nice thing and all, but it fails to cover those of us who are incapable of it. That being the disabled. I'm considered mentally disabled, that's why I'm on SSI. I have social anxiety to an extreme degree, so bad that when I'm under stress or pressure I curl up in a ball and weep because my brain is overloaded. I also have to deal with some schizophrenia (yeah, I admit it, everyone wanted to know what was up, so now you know) and some bipolar disorder. I can't function in normal society. I NEED government programs to be able to live a semi-normal life.

LadyEllen -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 4:12:34 PM)
you worry far too much about the Right Lindsey...... every experience through history shows that if theyre allowed free rein, they always "take care" of those of us who "dont measure up" E

Politesub53 -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 4:25:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen you worry far too much about the Right Lindsey...... every experience through history shows that if theyre allowed free rein, they always "take care" of those of us who "dont measure up" E Unlike the left eh ? Both sides get rid of anyone who doesnt fit the plan. Lets not make out one side is holier than thou.

Sanity -> RE: For those on the political left....new worries (6/9/2009 4:26:00 PM)
That's a nice bit of vicious hyperbole there, but the fact is, Hitler was a big lefty Socialist. But you knew that already, didn't you. http://jonjayray.tripod.com/hitler.html quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen you worry far too much about the Right Lindsey...... every experience through history shows that if theyre allowed free rein, they always "take care" of those of us who "dont measure up" E

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