RE: Death of a M/mate

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ownedgirlie -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/12/2006 2:38:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsIncognito quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie Hmm (scratching my head) i believe i said i was speaking for myself only. Is this not a place to share ideas and different concepts? Is this not a place to "think out loud" and see what others think? Yes it is and you even asked what people think. I'm sorry if you didn't like some of the responses you received, particularly mine, but they are my opinions and I stand by them. Just as you stand by yours. quote: i certainly didn't intend to get people heated over it. I don't see anyone heated over it. What I see is a group of adults sharing opinions which is sort of the whole point. Ah, okay...i must have misunderstood the snide/sarcastic "thank you" regarding "exaggerated self importance." Anyway, it is not a matter of my liking or disliking what others think. i posed questions for thought. i'm all for the sharing of ideas. i'm not all for sarcasm and insults. As for your other expressed views - the ones having to do with the topic- i respect them and appreciate seeing the differences you pointed out.

KnightofMists -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/12/2006 3:10:14 PM)
I agree! Totally quote: ORIGINAL: MsIncognito quote: ORIGINAL: MHOO314 What are your thoughts on this when you add O/our dynamic? I think it's the height of hubris to believe that losing a mate is so much harder when you add 'our dynamic' (as if we all have the same dynamic...criminy). I will never understand why so many who are into BDSM have this incessant need to believe that BDSM makes them more open, more evolved, capable of feeling more deeply, more special and that their relationships are more intense than non-BDSM relationships. Losing a mate is difficult. Period. Full stop. Having 'our dynamic' thrown in there doesn't make it any more difficult or tragic. It sucks no matter how you spin it. </rant>

KnightofMists -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/12/2006 3:32:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist quote: Add to it a slave who has lost her Master, and it creates a different element Ok, not to start flaming or anything, because I am truly curious about this. My issue is that I really FAIL to see how being in a Master/slave relationship could possibly make the loss greater. The loss of a spouse is hard for ANYONE, no matter what the dynamic of the relationship. When I lost my husband, I did not grieve as a slave losing her Master...I grieved as a person who lost thier best friend, husband, and father. My feelings of loss were no greater and no less than those who are in 'nilla relationships. I am just having a hard time understanding how anyone could possibly say that since he was my Master, I must have been grieving more. i did not say one grieved more than the other. i said there was an added (maybe "different" is a better choice of words) element to the struggle of finding ones footing again. These are merely my ponderings and ant an absolute statement of truth or fact (who would i be to make such a statement). i acknowledged that the death of a spouse is tragic to anyone. i am only exploring the idea of degrees of dependency one may have to husband/Master/Dominant. Understanding that this is a very sensitive topic (with good cause to be sensitive), i honestly wish to offend nobody or even appear to be trying to taking away from anyone's grief (which i couldnt if i wanted to, as grief is a very individual thing). It's kind of like that argument - is losing someone less difficult because you have been "warned" in advance (ie; they had an illness)? Grief is never "less difficult." The loss of life is exactly that - a loss. The lost of life is indeed a difficult thing to comprehend. I have never experienced the lost of a intimate loved one to myself, but I do know that day will come. I have however, walked side by side with a dear friend that had to let his wife of many years pass on. She collasped on the walk to work and was found unconscious. My alandra and I was with him and his daughter within an hour from the time he recieved the word from the police. Over the next three days I was with him as we waited and prayed. Only, I was with him when we sat and listened to the Doctor. I watched and supported him as he made the decision to take his wife off life support. I sat with him as he cried at the lost he was feeling. I sat with him as he prepared the funeral arrangements. I stood there and spoke to all the congregation as I gave a eulogy of a dear friend to my alandra and soulmate to my friend. It was only after this I allowed myself to cry, for my job was done. But, still I watched and supported my friend and his daughter as they learned to cope with the lost. I sit here now I can't comprehend how I will cope with the lost of either alandra or kyra. I sit here knowing my situation is unique. The lost of one will be a pain of great sorrow, but there is two. I will not only have to cope with the pain of lost, but also must function to enhance and enjoy the love of the other. I am fortunate that I will have one to help me cope, but yet, I can't compared the lost of either of them. I can't begin to comprehend what it will do! I just know I will cope! I must cope!

MHOO314 -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/12/2006 3:43:15 PM)
The pain of death is subjective, emotional and hits a raw nerve in U/us all, it has been interesting to watch the responses--- Knight wrestles with what may happen if he loses one--the coping he must do--the help he must be to the other ownedgirlie wrestles with the loss of Master--because her devotion to her is deep, total, complete--it doesn't matter if it can be matched in the vanilla world--to her it is unmatched-- MsIncognito feels there is no difference if the dynamic is or isn't there--grief and loss are to her, painful no matter IrishMist says it does not matter if its Mister or Master-it hurts the point is--it is subjective, grief is what it is, mourning is what it will be--but be sure you are prepared with notifications, bank accounts, living arrangements, ICE envelopes--because we are different, we live by different rules---a Dom takes a sub to live in a house left in a will for the children and he dies-- A Domme has a boy thousands of miles away and She gets in an accident-- An 8 year online relationship-- Because we do things with our own way, our own laws, things can happen--

KnightofMists -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/12/2006 3:51:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyV I find it odd that many don't think there would be any extra concern of a lost of a partner in a BDSM dynamic. While I haven't had any personal experience in death of a husband or a Dom, I have had relationships break up on both BDSM and vanilla. I can tell you there is a difference, especially from the submissive point of view. death and a breakup are two very different things. quote: Depending on how long you'd been with them and what kind of D/s relationship you've had.. there can be some phenominal problems that just aren't that prevalent in vanilla. Like what specifically? quote: How many vanilla relationships does your partner have complete 100% control of your body functions? Complete control over finances? Complete control over meals, meal plans, cleaning, etc? Complete control over daily plans, where to go, what to do, when to do it? I know significant number of conventional relationships that are more control/authority shifted to one mate over another than some so-called lifestyle relationships. for example, my brother is not lifestyle... However, his wife has complete control on budgeting and finances in general... he is given so much money to spend and doesn't spend more without taking to her first. She decides on all childcare issues and a several others things. But, yet they are a vanilla relationship to those in the lifestyle. I would think he would have just as much difficulty at the lost of his wife as anyone. quote: I guess it depends on what kind of dynamic you're in maybe.. But I'm currently counceling a male sub who had a healthy sex life before he found his Mistress, and now after just 3 months with her and she's gone.. He can't even get hard (not to mention other problems). So I guess you won't convince me that there isn't something more to a BDSM loss, than a vanilla one. yes it does depend on the dynamics of the relationship as well as the individuals involved. BDSM vrs vanilla is a silly comparison..... for in truth what is lifestyle in the first place and what is vanilla. There is not even a clear distinction to these terms. Making the thought that BDSM relationship would suffer greater lost is nothing more that pompus self-glorifing and as no substance to the issues of lost one would feel, regards of there lifestyle choices!

KnightofMists -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/12/2006 3:56:37 PM)
well said quote: ORIGINAL: MsIncognito quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie i think the idea is that when a slave becomes totally dependent on her Master. He is her center and her focus. her submission to him is what gives her strength. If he is suddenly removed from the picture, there is a different kind of struggle which takes place, to find her footing again (in addition to grieving the loss of a loved one). Death is difficult on anyone. Add to it a slave who has lost her Master, and it creates a different element. Thank you for displaying exactly the type of exaggerated self importance I was talking about. There are plenty of people in non-BDSM relationships that become dependant/interdependant on their mates and suffer horribly from their loss. It is not a "different" struggle. Everyone has to find their footing again and many rely on their mates for things that they will then have to learn to do for themselves once they are gone. I know that if my husband were to be gone from this earth tomorrow there are tonnes of things I'd have to re-learn to do for myself simply due to the division of labour in our home. quote: The dependence i feel on my Master is much different than the dependence i felt on my ex husband. i would think a good Master would train and prepare his slave to stand strong on her own and to exist without him should the misfortune of his death occur. But what if he dies before she reaches that goal? It is an interesting question. my Master have been speaking out it very recently. That may be true for you but that doesn't make it a universal truth. Just because you didn't have that with your ex doesn't mean others don't have it with their non-kinky partners.

IrishMist -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/12/2006 4:09:40 PM)
quote: Making the thought that BDSM relationship would suffer greater lost is nothing more that pompus self-glorifing and as no substance to the issues of lost one would feel, regards of there lifestyle choices! Thank you KnightofMists...you said what I was trying to and just could not get past the block that I had.

slavejali -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/12/2006 4:14:32 PM)
i have lived through the loss of a mate. The things that come to mind for this topic are: 1. Never leave things go unsaid. and make those things you say sweet. 2. Live your life in a way that will create cherished memories that will last forever. 3. Talk about death with your partner, to get an understanding while they are alive that you wish them, and they wish you happiness, to alleviate guilt for moving on with your life after your partner has passed. 4. Ensure you have your estate in order. 5. Realise now that we are more than a body and that our spirits do go on. That's all I can think of right now. P.S. and i know i posted to this topic Master...but I just did it from offering advice point of view, I'm not sinking into grief or anything :P kiss

KnightofMists -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/12/2006 4:36:10 PM)
jali thanks for providing some constructive thoughts in dealing with loss... and attempting to prepare for such loss. I agree with all your thoughts. In my house death is talked about, with the rugrats as well as between us three adults. I have my funeral all prearranged. I have learned kyra's preferences and have already incorporated what will happen in the event of her death. I believe it is important issue to discuss in relationships. Many hide from it, denying the fact doesn't change the fact that we will all die. Will it make the loss easier.... somehow I doubt it... but maybe just maybe the preparations will make it easier to get thru day one... and maybe the next day as well. So. maybe it will be managable! to the OP this is a great discussion. Discussion of Death with a deeply committed relationship are important in my opinion.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/12/2006 7:43:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MHOO314 The pain of death is subjective, emotional and hits a raw nerve in U/us all, it has been interesting to watch the responses--- Knight wrestles with what may happen if he loses one--the coping he must do--the help he must be to the other ownedgirlie wrestles with the loss of Master--because her devotion to her is deep, total, complete--it doesn't matter if it can be matched in the vanilla world--to her it is unmatched-- MsIncognito feels there is no difference if the dynamic is or isn't there--grief and loss are to her, painful no matter IrishMist says it does not matter if its Mister or Master-it hurts the point is--it is subjective, grief is what it is, mourning is what it will be--but be sure you are prepared with notifications, bank accounts, living arrangements, ICE envelopes--because we are different, we live by different rules---a Dom takes a sub to live in a house left in a will for the children and he dies-- A Domme has a boy thousands of miles away and She gets in an accident-- An 8 year online relationship-- Because we do things with our own way, our own laws, things can happen-- Thank you for laying this out in a completely objective nature. The fact is, everyone is different, feels things differently, thinks differently. It is interesting and unique, this assortment of opinions. i have never laid claim that one opinion is right over the other, in fact this has been enlightening. That some resort to such negative remarks about others because of different ideas is also enlightening. The biggest message i got from your post here, MHOO is the most important. While grief and loss are painful, no matter what content (bdsm, vanilla, whatever), couples/families would be wise to prepare themselves as best as they can, such that one is equipped to deal with life should the other pass.

cloudboy -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/12/2006 9:05:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Crazytwice With all due respect, I believe Mistress Hathor was referring to the cloak of secrecy that unfortunately is needed in some BDSM relations. Imagine a close personal friend and/or lover passing and no one knew enough to tell you. I have had a 8-yr online friendship and if anything happened to him, it's very likely I wouldn't know. That would be heart-breaking. She was merely asking for suggestions to prevent this sort of thing from happening. CT Its pretty much a nightmare situation.

BitaTruble -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/13/2006 12:51:13 AM)
quote: Depending on how long you'd been with them and what kind of D/s relationship you've had.. there can be some phenominal problems that just aren't that prevalent in vanilla. Like what specifically? Like having to make choices that a vanilla does not have to make. You can choose to push down everything within you which screams out to submit. You can choose to come out and risk losing your children or you can choose to stay in the darkness, not tell anyone else and carry your burdens alone. Like not having a support network because no one knows that your Master just died and you can't tell them. You have no one to speak with, no shoulder on which to lean. No voices to comfort you. No one to vent or rant to.. and help you with your guilt when that day comes and you realized you've gone a whole day without, once, thinking about your loss. Or you realized that you just laughed again for the first time and it makes you cry that you did so. You could not be out, so everything, literally everything you feel from that loss is internal. You have to cry in the bathrooms, quietly, so no one wonders why you are so upset and acting like you've lost your best friend in the whole world. You've never felt so alone in all your life because you've never been so alone. No one can hold out their hand to you because they don't know they should. No one to stand by you when you bury him. It's all relative. Many live this life in secret because they must, but it comes at a price. This is an example of one of the prices you may have to pay to keep your secrets. For those who have to remain in the shadows, it can be very different. The loss isn't felt more deeply, you just don't have anyone to help you hold the burden of it. Maybe there are vanillas who experience the same thing. They choose to carry their burdens alone as well, but, most likely, they didn't make their choice because any other choice risked losing their children or their jobs. Sometimes, choosing BDSM or having BDSM choose us means we have no choices at all, but, we're adults, so.. what to do but suck it up, right? Celeste

KnightofMists -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/13/2006 9:58:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble Like having to make choices that a vanilla does not have to make. You can choose to push down everything within you which screams out to submit. You can choose to come out and risk losing your children or you can choose to stay in the darkness, not tell anyone else and carry your burdens alone. contrary to belief... The lifestyle is not the only haven of those that push to submit to the will of another! Not all.. worry about losing children or coming out in in the lifestyle. That is a personal issue not a lifestyle issue! quote: Like not having a support network because no one knows that your Master just died and you can't tell them. You have no one to speak with, no shoulder on which to lean. No voices to comfort you. No one to vent or rant to.. and help you with your guilt when that day comes and you realized you've gone a whole day without, once, thinking about your loss. Or you realized that you just laughed again for the first time and it makes you cry that you did so. You could not be out, so everything, literally everything you feel from that loss is internal. You have to cry in the bathrooms, quietly, so no one wonders why you are so upset and acting like you've lost your best friend in the whole world. You've never felt so alone in all your life because you've never been so alone. No one can hold out their hand to you because they don't know they should. No one to stand by you when you bury him. again not being to tell anyone is a personal issue... not a lifestyle issue! many are out and do not have to struggle with this issue. Many in the lifestyle have friends in the lifestyle that are aware of the relationship as well. So really, that really isn't a lifestyle difference... that is a personal difference based on there choices. It's all relative. Many live this life in secret because they must, but it comes at a price. This is an example of one of the prices you may have to pay to keep your secrets. For those who have to remain in the shadows, it can be very different. The loss isn't felt more deeply, you just don't have anyone to help you hold the burden of it. Maybe there are vanillas who experience the same thing. They choose to carry their burdens alone as well, but, most likely, they didn't make their choice because any other choice risked losing their children or their jobs. Sometimes, choosing BDSM or having BDSM choose us means we have no choices at all, but, we're adults, so.. what to do but suck it up, right? These are not lifestyle distinctions! These are people that make specific choices that have to live with those choices. The lifestyle doesn't require us to live in a shadow to be in the lifestyle... people choose to live in the shadow in BDSM! That's right suck it up... But don't blame the lifestyle because a person feels they have to live in the shadows and that there is not choice. There is always choices, some just might not like the choices. There is alot of people that Don't live in the shadows. Many Know the significance of their partners... Master or otherwise. So, you have not made a distincition of vanilla vrs lifestyle... you only made a distinction of some people in the lifestyle (In shadows) as compared to others in the lifesyle!

BitaTruble -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/13/2006 10:33:48 AM)
quote: you only made a distinction of some people in the lifestyle (In shadows) as compared to others in the lifesyle! The question was - "Depending on how long you'd been with them and what kind of D/s relationship you've had... there can be some phenominal problems that just aren't that prevalent in vanilla." To which you asked.. 'what specifically'. I based my answer within the parameters of the questions. I hold to them. They are 'specific' and issues which are not prevalent in vanilla lifestyles. I will agree to disagree with you. As I can't speak for BDSM as a whole, only for myself. Celeste

IrishMist -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/13/2006 11:06:26 AM)
quote: there can be some phenominal problems that just aren't that prevalent in vanilla." Ok, still trying to wrap my thoughts around this and having a hard time. What problems would be prevalent in a vanilla relationship that are not there in one that centers around this dynamic? I fail to see how anyone can say this. Loss is loss, it matters not what kind of lifestyle you live. I get so tired of people saying that because we live within this 'lifestyle' that we are somehow more special, or more feeling, or more something than those who don't. Our feelings are no more and no less than those in vanilla relationships, and saying that we have something special that sets us apart...I just want to know what the fuck that somethng special is. And yet, for everyone who says that it's there...not one can say what it is. I have seen others in perfectly normal vanilla relationships unable to cope with the loss of a loved one; and then I have seen those in this dynamic able to cope beautifully. What does that do for your 'we are special ' label. Dayum, Mistress Hathor...see what you did now... [:@]

IronBear -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/13/2006 11:21:02 AM)
Different people have different relationships with those close to them. Each relationship has it's own dynamic and it's own area of vulnerability. Is the death of a work mate of many years less painfull than the death of a social friend? Is the death of a relitive less painfullk than the death of a lover? Is the death of a parent less worse than the death of a sibling? Is the death of your child less worse than than the death of your husband.wife/partner? Is the death of a submisive/slaves's dominant less worse than the death of a Dominant's submissive/slave? Is the death of a loved one from a terminal illness less worse that the sudden death of natural causes of that same person who was full of energy and life yesterday? There is no answer. The depth and extent of grief will vary from each person and each relationship. One thing in common is that such losses hurt like hell and even with the most meticulas planning and open discussions, the sudden knowledge that you will never see, talk to or hold that person again is a devisting realisation and each person will deal or not deal with it according to their nature. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence! Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and Determination alone are omnipotent! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It's all in the game and how you play it!

BitaTruble -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/13/2006 11:27:42 AM)
quote: What problems would be prevalent in a vanilla relationship that are not there in one that centers around this dynamic? I quoted a text which said problems which are 'not' prevalent in vanilla relationships, then listed a specific problem relating to a specific lifestyle choice. As specifics had been requested, that's what I provided based strictly on my own experience. Celeste

KnightofMists -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/13/2006 4:08:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble As I can't speak for BDSM as a whole, only for myself. An that is the point.. you can only speak for yourself. So making a claim that "LIFESTYLE" people have Issues that are beyond "Vanilla" people. Well that really isn't speaking for yourself now is it? No question you personally could have some issues that distinctly "Different" than others. Lifesyle, Vanilla or others. Doesn't make it better or worse! just different.

KnightofMists -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/13/2006 4:15:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble quote: What problems would be prevalent in a vanilla relationship that are not there in one that centers around this dynamic? I quoted a text which said problems which are 'not' prevalent in vanilla relationships, then listed a specific problem relating to a specific lifestyle choice. As specifics had been requested, that's what I provided based strictly on my own experience. Celeste But that is the problem.. you speak only from your experience to answer a question that is about a "Vanilla" Relationships as a whole. Personally, I can't speak for the whole of "Vanilla" any more than I can speak of the Whole of BDSM lifestyle. I can't compare my situation to others and they can't compare there's to mine.. Regardless of lifestyle. Individuals that attempt to make a comparison of the individual situation to a whole lifestyle... well just seems rather silly. it' as I said before.." Pompus Self-Glorifing" I can't speak for the whole of lifestyle and as you stated neither can you... but yet - you compare your situation as being specifically different than a whole you can't even speak about. I am fairly arrogant at times.... but not so arrogant to think I can speak of "whole Vanilla" and what they go thru and not go thru in comparison to myself or any others for that matter.

KnightofMists -> RE: Death of a M/mate (2/13/2006 4:17:41 PM)
very well said quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear Different people have different relationships with those close to them. Each relationship has it's own dynamic and it's own area of vulnerability. Is the death of a work mate of many years less painfull than the death of a social friend? Is the death of a relitive less painfullk than the death of a lover? Is the death of a parent less worse than the death of a sibling? Is the death of your child less worse than than the death of your husband.wife/partner? Is the death of a submisive/slaves's dominant less worse than the death of a Dominant's submissive/slave? Is the death of a loved one from a terminal illness less worse that the sudden death of natural causes of that same person who was full of energy and life yesterday? There is no answer. The depth and extent of grief will vary from each person and each relationship. One thing in common is that such losses hurt like hell and even with the most meticulas planning and open discussions, the sudden knowledge that you will never see, talk to or hold that person again is a devisting realisation and each person will deal or not deal with it according to their nature. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence! Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and Determination alone are omnipotent! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It's all in the game and how you play it!

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