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RE: We regret to inform you that we refuse to acknowled... - 6/18/2009 7:11:15 AM

beargonewild

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_FR~

The guidelines I use are:

- if I am replying specifically to a person in a post, I will write their user name exactly as shown in their pic, with others whom I have a more closer familiarity with, I will abbreviate their user name.
- if it's in a general post, most times I will write dom or domme and may capitalize the D.
- in real life, I will use that person's actual name though with a few exceptions: one being if the person's online nickname is also their nickname used in r/t or they have asked me to address them by "Sir" or "Lady" or other labels they identify with.
- there are a couple people here whom I have communicated in pvt cmails and my instinct compels me to still address them by their user name even though they stated I could address them by their real name! LadyPact knows what I mean LOL. In this case, it doesn't "feel" right to message her and use her actual name, I guess it's mostly due to the high level of respect I have for her and my sense of protocol kicks into high gear!

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RE: We regret to inform you that we refuse to acknowled... - 6/18/2009 8:06:38 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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I wouldn't say it 'bothers' me, but I recognize that there is gender-association beyond "male" and "female". In fact, it's one of the things that caused me to actively develop/use a third set of pronouns (xhe and hir) for a novel series, that is gender neutral. I think, at least for me, it is an ongoing reminder that the permutations of perception we apply to people may or may not correspond with that person's perception of hirself.

As far as the capitalization aspect... in a written medium, especially where there are multiple pronouns being tossed around, it makes some sense to me that dominant-related pronouns would be capitalized and submissive-related pronouns wouldn't... capitalizing a dominant-related pronoun feels, to me, like a written form of "stepping up on the dias", which I find appropriate for someone who is claiming responsibility for decisions affecting hirself and others.

Dame Calla

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RE: We regret to inform you that we refuse to acknowled... - 6/18/2009 10:38:52 PM

littlesarbonn

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Doesn't bother me at all. It's subjective to that person's experience, and I realize that, so why should I care? I write to try to be all inclusive, but realize I can't demand that same thing from everyone else.

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RE: We regret to inform you that we refuse to acknowled... - 6/18/2009 11:38:45 PM

AlexandraLynch

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My personal bias on this is as follows: I address other dominant-sorts, male and female, as equals, and treat them as I would wish to be treated (this includes trying to avoid situations in which I make them lose face, etc.) I address subs that are either owned by someone else or unowned as people. I address subs owned by myself as I see fit. (grin) In practice, this means that everyone on the forums gets addressed as people and with respect for their individual identity. If someone's using non-gendered pronouns, I will too.

I have a friend who is a two-spirited TG with a biologically male body. I call him by his male name and use male pronouns when I am talking about his male presentation, and use female pronouns and her female name when I'm talking about her female presentation. But my husband, for example, knows that Jack and Jennifer inhabit the same body, and usually doesn't get too confused. (grin)

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RE: We regret to inform you that we refuse to acknowled... - 6/19/2009 12:39:35 AM

onlyfreelycaged

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It doesn't bother me at all... I've always been just fine with using "he" used to include women...

but don't call me a "he". I just have the wrong parts for that.

I kind of like the "xhe" to stand for he or she... I'm not sure if that was done on pourpose or not... but I like it.

*edit to add another thought*

< Message edited by onlyfreelycaged -- 6/19/2009 12:41:19 AM >

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RE: We regret to inform you that we refuse to acknowled... - 6/19/2009 1:27:21 AM

DemonKia

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There's a movement afoot to 'gender neutralize' language . . . . . Some get offended, seeing it as some kinda outta control PC thing, & others get that gendered language ends up excluding at least half the population (more if one counts those of more muddled gender who don't fit neatly into one box or the other) . . . . .

Wiki does a decent job of introducing the subject & offering choices of pronouns & such:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun

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RE: We regret to inform you that we refuse to acknowled... - 6/19/2009 5:36:23 AM

Apocalypso

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I try to stay gender neutral as much as possible. (Which isn't particularly difficult if you want to. One of the easiest ways is just to alternate "he" and "she" in examples). It's pretty much second nature to me by now.

Within reason. I refuse to use slash speak because I despise it. And while I'm using gender neutral pronouns like "hir" and "ze" on other forums, I don't here. I think it jars too much for people if they're not used to it.

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RE: We regret to inform you that we refuse to acknowled... - 6/19/2009 5:44:01 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

And while I'm using gender neutral pronouns like "hir" and "ze" on other forums, I don't here. I think it jars too much for people if they're not used to it.

This perspective is kind of interesting. I never really thought about whether my use of "xhe" and "hir" would jar someone... or maybe, secretly, in the deep recesses of my mind, I hoped it -would-, and that it would start seeping in, through small doses, that the whole two-gender thing (like most black/white extremities) is passe and at least get people comfortable seeing an inclusive pronoun, even if they're not yet ready to use one yet.

Oh.. and xhe is pronounced "gee", and hir is pronounced "here", if anyone feels inclined to use them in conversation.

Dame Calla

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RE: We regret to inform you that we refuse to acknowled... - 6/19/2009 5:46:25 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

And while I'm using gender neutral pronouns like "hir" and "ze" on other forums, I don't here. I think it jars too much for people if they're not used to it.

This perspective is kind of interesting. I never really thought about whether my use of "xhe" and "hir" would jar someone... or maybe, secretly, in the deep recesses of my mind, I hoped it -would-, and that it would start seeping in, through small doses, that the whole two-gender thing (like most black/white extremities) is passe and at least get people comfortable seeing an inclusive pronoun, even if they're not yet ready to use one yet.

Oh.. and xhe is pronounced "gee", and hir is pronounced "here", if anyone feels inclined to use them in conversation.

Dame Calla

Wow and all this time I thought you were just typing to fast and not going back to fix errors.

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RE: We regret to inform you that we refuse to acknowled... - 6/19/2009 5:57:17 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Wow and all this time I thought you were just typing to fast and not going back to fix errors.

Well, just so it's clear, I'm relatively anal-retentive about spelling, so no, they weren't spelling errors. I actually did those on purpose. *chuckles*

DC

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RE: We regret to inform you that we refuse to acknowled... - 6/19/2009 7:12:37 AM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
This perspective is kind of interesting. I never really thought about whether my use of "xhe" and "hir" would jar someone...

Actually, in my opinion, it's a good thing that you didn't worry about 'jarring' someone. Let's be clear. This is the internet. Your audience is vast, unknown, and widely varied. If there is to be any hope for communication to occur, those listening are going to have to do a good job at it... which is to say... act like they have an IQ over 50.

It took me about 2 seconds to interpret your pronouns when I first encountered them and it's happened automagically since then. This is just like my expectation that when I write and use male pronouns for D and female pronouns for S, you'll interpret accordingly to your reversed situation. Really, the only other choice is to constantly be inserting extra words, explanations, and/or slash-ey speak and that's just a pain in the ass.

Assuming the goal is to communicate rather than to play board warrior, none of this should really be a problem.

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RE: We regret to inform you that we refuse to acknowled... - 6/19/2009 8:11:02 AM

SassySarijane

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~Fast Reply~

It doesn't bother me one bit to have someone post from their perspective in relationship dynamics. I can easily adjust the pronouns in my head to fit mine. I honestly think if someone is so thin skinned that a poster on a message board not using all variances or gender neutral terms offends them, then they need to go away and grow up and get a thicker skin before interacting on a message board. I think it is asinine to expect everyone to carefully use every possible dynamic term or gender neutral terms in all their posting just to try to avoid offending someone. If I can adjust things in my head to fit how it works for me, I am quite sure others can too. Definitely much less unecessary drama that way.

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RE: We regret to inform you that we refuse to acknowled... - 6/19/2009 9:46:23 AM

Apocalypso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
This perspective is kind of interesting. I never really thought about whether my use of "xhe" and "hir" would jar someone... or maybe, secretly, in the deep recesses of my mind, I hoped it -would-, and that it would start seeping in, through small doses, that the whole two-gender thing (like most black/white extremities) is passe and at least get people comfortable seeing an inclusive pronoun, even if they're not yet ready to use one yet.

That makes sense.

Where I think it gets complicated is if we look at the issue of inclusivity. It's somewhat problematic when terms appear exclusive, particuarly if the reason you're using them is to be more inclusive. (That can be more of a problem when you have a significant minority of posters who use them on a forum, as opposed to a handful of individuals. At that point, it can serve to set those posters apart from everyone else, whatever their intentions).

On the other hand, I actually find gender neutral pronouns highly useful on the net. It's not so much of a problem here, but elsewhere it's helpful for when I don't know someone's gender identification. I actually first came across gender neutral pronouns on a board where a sizeable number of genderqueer folk post. It was invaluable there.

I'd agree that gender identity is a continuum as opposed to a binary proposition. I'm also sympathetic to Butler's view that gender (and sexuality) is something we perform as opposed to a biological trait. I'm possibly getting somewhat off-topic now though!

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If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
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