RE: War on Terrorism (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Polls and Other Random Stupidity



Message

Petruchio -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/18/2006 2:47:22 AM)

>Could it be that the powers-that-be of our country have the ability to create elaborately effective illusions and manipulate the thoughts and emotions of the common masses with them better than the powers-that-be of most other countries, even in spite of the fact that the masses here still have both access to information and options that are not available in most places elsewhere?

Excellent point.

Also, we fail to understand how limited our ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, CNN news channels are, particularly since they seem to be in common pursuit of 'good news' stories. Europeans have upwards of TWO HUNDRED news channels from around the world, and our pitiful few are considered insignificant against the great German and Italian news bureaus.

>To my understanding, government debt is currently at an unprecedented high. I understand that the current administration has run up a deficit greater than all the prior administrations combined

That's correct: We went from a record surplus at the close of the previous administration to a record debt under this one in a little over 3 years. As one economist put it, "We have borrowed from our grandchildren– they will pay our debt."

>weave into the spin zone

mnotter's list should make us think, but I notice Ron that you left an important name off who was an important recipient: Saddam Hussein.



UtopianRanger -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/18/2006 3:16:17 AM)

quote:


If the war on terrorism is ineffectual then why haven't they attacked the US again?



Because ''they'' never attacked us in the first place.

* 9 - 11 was an inside job. Al Qaeda are patsies and couldn't do it.

* The air defense system was suppressed by moles.

* The twin towers and building number seven were brought down by control demolition

* A cruise missile, not a passenger jet, hit the pentagon

This was all done under cover of various US military maneuvers and conduited through the Pentagon, CIA, NSA and the DIA.

I thought I'd throw in a conspiracy theory just to make things a little more interesting [8|]

Ya'll have a great weekend! LOL!


- The Ranger




JohnWarren -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/18/2006 4:58:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

...my most memorable crapper was in a hotel in Malaysia. Like most there, it was just a hole in the floor. What made it memorable was it was on the third floor and the "collector" was on the first. I felt like a WWI bomber. I swear it whistled on the way down.


LOL... okay John, you've brought us this far, but inquiring minds want to know... did it land with a thump, a splat, or a splash? ... [sm=lol.gif]


Depends on "who had gone before". You see it wasn't a solo "collector" but a large concrete slab shared by every hole in the four story building. Every morning some poor soul would come by with a pushbroom and collect the days deposits for use in the local farms. This was one reason why I was an enthusiastic carnivore.

Travel is so broadening



FangsNfeet -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/18/2006 5:16:50 AM)

quote:

quote:

The rest of the worlds problems effect the USA. After all, there are these things called "IMPORTS" that we seem to rely on.

using this analogy:

would a store owner go to someone's house and tell them how to run it?

same difference, but on a larger scale.



Actually it's the other way around michalGA. The customer (USA on the larger scale) is telling the stores how to work. Don't you remember the phrase "The customer is always right" ?



JohnWarren -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/18/2006 5:24:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
I've dove on
Had Germany lasted another year hitler would have had long range bombers that could have bombed major us cities. germany would have had the first a bomb.


Actually, the latest research seems to indicate that Japan was almost ready to build one at the end of the war and according to some authorities successfully tested a device in what is now North Korea.

History Channel had a very interesting documentary on that and the post war cover-up.

quote:



America sat on its ass and closed its eyes to europe with exactly your attitude and if wasnt for peral H that spring boarded into the war we would have a swastika on our flags right now.


One thing that has always puzzled me was why Hitler declared war on us after Pearl Harbor. The Axis treaty was purely defensive and he was under no obligation to do so. Had he not, there would have been tremendous pressure for us to continue to stay out of the European war.

Of course, the situation then and now are quite different. The Axis had a tremendous and sophisticated war machine. The various Islamic extremist groups are little more than street gangs. They can threaten Americans; they are no threat to America.

Had we lost to the Axis (or to the Soviets) we would have vanished as a country. If America surrendered to Usama Bin Laden, he and his cohorts lack sufficient manpower and sophistication to take over DC, let alone the country. They never even managed to take over all of Afghanistan and that was with the rest of the world looking the other way.



michaelGA -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/18/2006 5:24:53 AM)

but, using your analogy, the store owner would go to people's houses and tell them how to run things.

perhaps this is what they mean by "Let the costomer beware"



darkinshadows -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/18/2006 7:25:21 AM)

quote:

Actually it's the other way around michalGA. The customer (USA on the larger scale) is telling the stores how to work. Don't you remember the phrase "The customer is always right" ?


The phrase may exist but isnt always true. If You were in business or studied business courses you would find that is that was true - there would be an awful lot of non-starter business.

Its more - *the customer is manipulated into what they think and that they are always right *

Peace and Rapture



Gauge -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/18/2006 9:27:53 AM)

quote:

Hold it, Guage......many times we are in agreement and in fact I find no fault with your statements, but I am not going to sit silently if you mean to infer that Iraq or Afganistan or any money that the governement spends on humanitarian aid is actually humanitarian aid (hopefully, we both will dismiss the 'Mother of all wars on terror' as less than humanitarian aid. )


War is not humanatarian aid. War is war. I do not concider war as "helping" another country. As far as the cost in human life and money goes, this war will be a burden for several generations in the future.

The question was posed as to why we must take care of other countries. I thought I answered it.

This is why I hate political discussions. Your side is right and everyone elses is wrong. (and I am using "you" in general terms, not pointing to anyone) There never seems to be a middle ground that can be reached and it always ends up a fairly heated debate if not argument. [:'(]



subfever -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/18/2006 5:46:51 PM)


quote:

subfever: Could it be that the powers-that-be of our country have the ability to create elaborately effective illusions and manipulate the thoughts and emotions of the common masses with them better than the powers-that-be of most other countries, even in spite of the fact that the masses here still have both access to information and options that are not available in most places elsewhere?

Petruchio: Excellent point.


Thanks!

quote:

Petruchio: Also, we fail to understand how limited our ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, CNN news channels are, particularly since they seem to be in common pursuit of 'good news' stories. Europeans have upwards of TWO HUNDRED news channels from around the world, and our pitiful few are considered insignificant against the great German and Italian news bureaus.


I have distrusted the domestic news for some time now, but was not aware of the depth of the European news network/access. Thank you for pointing this out.

quote:

subfever: To my understanding, government debt is currently at an unprecedented high. I understand that the current administration has run up a deficit greater than all the prior administrations combined

Petruchio: That's correct: We went from a record surplus at the close of the previous administration to a record debt under this one in a little over 3 years. As one economist put it, "We have borrowed from our grandchildren– they will pay our debt."


Well... this pretty much identifies who's really funding this war, doesn't it?

Even with historically high levels of leisure time, the masses here in the US don't invest the time and effort to seek out the truth. Blind faith in one's political party is something that the powers-that-be have masterfully orchestrated amongst the common masses over the years. They are counting on the masses to continue to distract themselves with the political polarization blame-game.

It's sad to see the majority of us still trapped in the illusion that we can make a real change by voting Democrat or Republican. Politics in this country is a fraud. A con game. Pony shows. Bread and circuses. Both parties are on the same team. The team that really matters. The team of the wealthy elite. Big money. Big business.

I'll bet many of you are bristling with emotions right now. The human mind is complexly strange. Scientists have recently stated publically that our minds shut down logically and ignite emotionally when confronted with information that is contrary to our closely-held political belief systems. And we actually experience pleasure when we hear information that attacks an opposing political belief system. Such a perfect tool to control people!

No... the elite doesn't even need to go past our borders to create enemies to distract and confuse the masses. This game has been effectively orchestrated and implemented in the past with black vs. white, savage vs. civilized, and immigrant vs. natural born.

Unfortunately, sometimes the elite creates enemies outside our borders too.



Real0ne -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/18/2006 9:53:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
I've dove on
Had Germany lasted another year hitler would have had long range bombers that could have bombed major us cities. germany would have had the first a bomb.


Actually, the latest research seems to indicate that Japan was almost ready to build one at the end of the war and according to some authorities successfully tested a device in what is now North Korea.

History Channel had a very interesting documentary on that and the post war cover-up.

quote:



America sat on its ass and closed its eyes to europe with exactly your attitude and if wasnt for peral H that spring boarded into the war we would have a swastika on our flags right now.


One thing that has always puzzled me was why Hitler declared war on us after Pearl Harbor. The Axis treaty was purely defensive and he was under no obligation to do so. Had he not, there would have been tremendous pressure for us to continue to stay out of the European war.

Of course, the situation then and now are quite different. The Axis had a tremendous and sophisticated war machine. The various Islamic extremist groups are little more than street gangs. They can threaten Americans; they are no threat to America.

Had we lost to the Axis (or to the Soviets) we would have vanished as a country. If America surrendered to Usama Bin Laden, he and his cohorts lack sufficient manpower and sophistication to take over DC, let alone the country. They never even managed to take over all of Afghanistan and that was with the rest of the world looking the other way.


So did you hear anything conclusive as to the actual reason hitler declared war on us?
Now that you mention it i always just assumed it was because of the axis treaty between japan and germany and hitler was showing support for his allies.

Roosevldt actually was funneling weapons and supplies to england for a several months prior to japans attack but wouldnt commit any boots. churchill was literally begging us to get into the war

i know there was controversy between which one, japan or germany, that made the first jet powered plane. i thought that rumor of japan being the first was never based in fact.

That seems strange that japan would have actually had a-bomb technology but if that is so and that was all in the works prior to PH attack in combination with their friend in germany it would make more sense why they would risk "everything" to attack us.

Yes and this so labelled war on terror is not a war at all. it is a police action, nothing more. however that does not imply the fighting and consequences would not be just as deadly. The nice thing about a war is the combatants both know who their enemy is.

What makes this so difficult for a country on the receiving end even tho they would never take over DC is that you or i could be a combatant and no one around us would know.

20 pounds of semtek in a subway and you just wasted a few hundred people. terror is a total stealth operation where your enemy looks just like you and sits on the opposite table from ou at lunch ready to pull the pin and for all intents and purposes this makes a terrorest a bigger threat to this country than a bonifide army and a target we can see.

Of course a situation like this is totally unthinkable even to me so some kind of method had to be created to deal with this bonafide threat to the security of this nation and of course with exception to iraq this administration really only did what the last admin wanted to do in the first place but couldnt get support.

One thing this country does understand however about the middle east is that the only way you can effectively get your point across that we are unhappy about them is to bring a m60 to a bare knuckle fight. it how hussein kept them all in line and as bad as it is nonetheless an effective method of communication within the their iq range.

dont forget we are soft americans and we wont bother fighting because we are fat dumb and happy. thats their sentiment.

i am stil pondering that declaration of war. you know it would make sense to me if japan and germany had some kind of handshake going between them.

Just thinking that maybe japan had a little talk with hitler prior to the actual attack knowing the strength of the us and maybe a hand shake for hitler to join in support against us should japan commit.







Petruchio -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/18/2006 11:36:26 PM)

Terrorism is perhaps the most cowardly of actions, wiping out innocent people with no say in their fate. Terrorists always claim they are advancing some cause or another, but it always seems their real goal is to destroy, always destroy.

quote:

So did you hear anything conclusive as to the actual reason hitler declared war on us?


Hitler didn't declare war on us. He went to a great deal of trouble (and propaganda) to see that the US stayed on the sidelines.

quote:

Roosevldt actually was funneling weapons and supplies to england for a several months prior to japans attack but wouldnt commit any boots. churchill was literally begging us to get into the war


True, but it's important to note that Roosevelt SOLD weaponry to the UK and Europe in his Lend/Lease program.

quote:

you know it would make sense to me if japan and germany had some kind of handshake going between them.


If you're talking about WW-II, they did indeed.

quote:

Actually, the latest research seems to indicate that Japan was almost ready to build one at the end of the war and according to some authorities successfully tested a device in what is now North Korea.

History Channel had a very interesting documentary on that and the post war cover-up.


This one of those rare instances that I wish I had cable, John.



NCMistress4fem -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/19/2006 4:11:27 AM)

I don't not normally use this form of communication it is for the slaves search but in this case I must. I can give you the view from two points...one of a former marine and one of a father of a marine stationed in Iraq. As a former marine on 9/12/01 I attempted to re-enlist for the sole reason of defending my country. But after 20 years and 40 lbs I was to old. In my place my son stepped forward and enlisted. I am the proudest father in the world!! The facts of the matter are I would and so would my son rather fight in another country, on their streets rather then here in ours. Daily we hear of that men and women of our fine military are losing their lives but to be honest that is what a member of the military does puts their life on the line for their country. The facts are we are killing a lot more of them then they are of us. And did anyone ever consider that the plan from the start may have been to locate US military forces in the middle east in a nice centeral location making it easy for members of terrorist groups to get to them? Bring the enemy to them to fight on ground of our choice. I can also tell you one more thing from my son and I quote..."If they protest the war they do not support me, for I am the war. It is my job now to make war and fight war and to not support it means you don't support me or my job." Bottom line from a former marine and a present marine. We stay till the job is done and it is done. And then move to the next job at hand. For even though there is no country to fight this is a war and a war that must be fought. Someone mentioned Pearl Harbor...facts are isolationism caused Pearl Harbor we should have already been involved in WWII but the isolationist had managed to keep us out and Pearl Harbor was the result. God bless our fine military and America.



JohnWarren -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/19/2006 6:21:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


So did you hear anything conclusive as to the actual reason hitler declared war on us?

(text moved) i am stil pondering that declaration of war. you know it would make sense to me if japan and germany had some kind of handshake going between them.

Just thinking that maybe japan had a little talk with hitler prior to the actual attack knowing the strength of the us and maybe a hand shake for hitler to join in support against us should japan commit.



I suspect it was racial prejudice. While Hitler admired the British, he saw the Americans as the quintessential race mixers. It's possible he didn't see us as any real threat. Still the decision ranks up with Operation Barbarossa as "really stupid moves." Carl von Clausewitz must have been spinning in his grave.
quote:



Now that you mention it i always just assumed it was because of the axis treaty between japan and germany and hitler was showing support for his allies.


Most people think that but the Axis treaty was very specifically a defensive treaty. One of the signatories had to be attacked first before it could take effect.

quote:


That seems strange that japan would have actually had a-bomb technology but if that is so and that was all in the works prior to PH attack in combination with their friend in germany it would make more sense why they would risk "everything" to attack us.


They pretty clearly had it and were working in concert with Germany. At the end of the European war, U-234 surrendered in mid-mission. It was bound for Japan with over a thousand pounds of uranium oxide.

Just how far the Japanese had gotten wasn't clear both because they destroyed a lot of their equipment and records and their "Oak Ridge" was in northern Korea and had fallen into the hands of the Soviets. Uncle Joe wasn't the sharing type.

quote:


Yes and this so labelled war on terror is not a war at all. it is a police action, nothing more.


That's exactly my feeling.

quote:


20 pounds of semtek in a subway and you just wasted a few hundred people. terror is a total stealth operation where your enemy looks just like you and sits on the opposite table from ou at lunch ready to pull the pin and for all intents and purposes this makes a terrorest a bigger threat to this country than a bonifide army and a target we can see.


It helps we don't have any real threats to compare it to. I don't think the average Brit worried much about the IRA while the Luftwaffe was turning so much of the country into smoking craters.









TexasMaam -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/19/2006 8:04:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I will bet [name deleted] (JohnWarren) knows what a chamber pot is....


I even know what "garde l’eau" means, but my most memorable crapper was in a hotel in Malaysia. Like most there, it was just a hole in the floor. What made it memorable was it was on the third floor and the "collector" was on the first. I felt like a WWI bomber. I swear it whistled on the way down.


Oh Yikes! Reminds Me of a train trip across China.

The train had one small room, lined with tiles, with a hole in the middle of the floor.

I had the most difficult time trying to pee while peering between My feet, watching the tracks run clickety clack, clickety clack beneath Me, with the smoke from the engine billowing through the open window.

I still don't know which was worse: the smoke and grime, the smell of ammoniated urine from the walls where men hadn't even tried to aim for the hole in the floor, or the feces blobs that were mounded along the center of the track far below....

I laugh when I think of it; but I also can't help but shudder! Travel. Dontcha love it? ; )

Texas Maam



JohnWarren -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/19/2006 8:23:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TexasMaam
I still don't know which was worse: the smoke and grime, the smell of ammoniated urine from the walls where men hadn't even tried to aim for the hole in the floor, or the feces blobs that were mounded along the center of the track far below....


My first request, after I had arrived in China, to my friends back in the US, was for the kind of nose clips that swimmers wear.

I was not planning to swim.



Petruchio -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/19/2006 4:23:52 PM)

quote:

Someone mentioned Pearl Harbor...facts are isolationism caused Pearl Harbor we should have already been involved in WWII but the isolationist had managed to keep us out and Pearl Harbor was the result. God bless our fine military and America.


This is a good point. There wasn't much sentiment at the time for getting involved in a war.

quote:

did anyone ever consider that the plan from the start may have been to locate US military forces in the middle east in a nice centeral location making it easy for members of terrorist groups to get to them? Bring the enemy to them to fight on ground of our choice.


I heard Condoleeza Rice answer that question with an, "Uh, yeah, right, we meant to do that."

quote:

As a former marine on 9/12/01 I attempted to re-enlist for the sole reason of defending my country. But after 20 years and 40 lbs I was to old. In my place my son stepped forward and enlisted. I am the proudest father in the world!!


Did you consider enlisting in support? They desperately need experienced people.

That said, we have two different 'wars' going on: One is a righteous action in Afghanistan in which we went after the evil men who bombed NYC. The other is a wicked war against a people who did us no harm and in fact stood with the rest of the world against al Qaida and bin Laden. The lesson? Never assume your own politicians are any more honest than they've proven to be in the past.

quote:

The facts are we are killing a lot more of them then they are of us.


This is very true and our news media has virtually ignored foreign deaths. It has also made us hated and feared and radicalized people who had previously nothing against us.

"If they protest the war they do not support me, for I am the war. It is my job now to make war and fight war and to not support it means you don't support me or my job."

Now here, I break ranks with you. In the military, we have no right to disagree, no right to levy our opinion, no right to protest. However, we are no longer in the military and have not just a right but an obligation to study and challenge political idiocy.

You didn't mention if your son is in Afghanistan or Iraq, and since those are two very different situations, we as citizens should have two very different responses.

In Iraq, we deploy marines in an honorable manner to advance freedom, defend Afghans, and extend the search for bin Laden.

But if he is in Iraq, would you accept with all respect that I firmly believe that the onus is on us not to unnecessarily put your son in harm's way? You and I know better than most that your son has no choice at this point, honorably and in reality.

However, those of us free citizens do have a choice and the information is out there if we choose to study it.

After that, honest difference of opinions arise. Led by Guage (and Michael and John and SF), they lay out their opinions and take in those of others. This has been one of the most interesting debates on the merits of these two very different conflicts I've seen.



Real0ne -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/19/2006 4:42:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Petruchio
That said, we have two different 'wars' going on: One is a righteous action in Afghanistan in which we went after the evil men who bombed NYC. The other is a wicked war against a people who did us no harm and in fact stood with the rest of the world against al Qaida and bin Laden. The lesson? Never assume your own politicians are any more honest than they've proven to be in the past.


i would love to jump on board with this and certainly agree with afg, however as far as iraq goes, tho everything is wrong about it in one sense there is a very good possiblility that over the long haul if this remotely works at all it could be very benificial. from my perspective i think its to early to make that determination.



NCMistress4fem -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/19/2006 5:44:50 PM)



quote:

Now here, I break ranks with you. In the military, we have no right to disagree, no right to levy our opinion, no right to protest. However, we are no longer in the military and have not just a right but an obligation to study and challenge political idiocy.


I do agree with you on this point one must question and even challenge political idiocy. But that is if you consider it idiocy. While I have many issues with the current administration Iraq is not one of them.


quote:

But if he is in Iraq, would you accept with all respect that I firmly believe that the onus is on us not to unnecessarily put your son in harm's way? You and I know better than most that your son has no choice at this point, honorably and in reality.


Of course it is true that at this point he does not have a choice, but he did have the choice in November when he re-enlisted and requested his second tour in Iraq. As he told me before he re-enlisted the job is not done dad. The majority of the people in Iraq are thankful for what our military has done and they do want freedom and democracy. And heaven forbid but if I do get that knock on the door and see marines standing there I will know that my son was doing what he thought was right.

quote:

code]After that, honest difference of opinions arise. Led by Guage (and Michael and John and SF), they lay out their opinions and take in those of others. This has been one of the most interesting debates on the merits of these two very different conflicts I've seen.[/code]


I agree that differences of opinion arise. I also respect that for without honest open debate no issue can be resolved. I will be the first one to defend the rights of others to disagree with my views for that is what this nation was built on. I will also defend the rights of peaceful anti war protest for it is a right and one that should never be taken away. But I will also be in the middle of the counter demonstration.



Gauge -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/19/2006 8:39:54 PM)

quote:

..."If they protest the war they do not support me, for I am the war. It is my job now to make war and fight war and to not support it means you don't support me or my job."


With all due respect for your son, he is wrong. I do not agree with war... any war. I do understand that it is sometimes necessary to fight in the name of freedom. The war on terrorism is a fight for freedom. The war in Iraq is a government blunder that was founded on lies and perpetuated under the name of a war on terror. There is nothing that anyone can say that will change those facts.

If a war is founded under lies and propaganda how are we obligated to support such a war? This has nothing at all to do with supporting our troops, nothing. I support those young men and women over in the Middle East. I support them and I want them to come home. I am behind their dedication to their task and their courage. I am also behind their not having to die because the Iraq war is wrong. It is too late though because we are there now and we have to finish what we started... this does not mean that I have to follow with blind allegiance those that say, "If you are not for me, you are against me."

I pray for the safe return of your son and every soldier over there.



mnottertail -> RE: War on Terrorism (2/19/2006 8:54:31 PM)

and I am around to agree with this viewpoint, again...........

(new rant:)
I will agree with slaughtering the dogs........regardless, don't think because you are in the services of any kind squid, suck,dog flyboy or coast gaurd that your doing the right thing, you are doing a service to your country (as the CID says) and it may not be what is good for the world, some governments take on airs............what measures a man...........

what is left to you on your gravestone, what is left to your children.....

can you guarentee an unborn's safety because of this for say......50 years?

Then if not, what is the war on terrorism? We are the only country of democrats and republicans.......

Other countries have different concepts......

I will defend my freedom, and I am not my brother's keeper,unless he is downtrodden............. No asshole can make that claim here, that these people are downtrodden and beg help.

never mind,

Ron




Page: <<   < prev  4 5 6 [7] 8   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
5.078125E-02