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RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/26/2009 12:08:13 PM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

It is not untrue esin it is a fact like any other. If one does not choose religion but is instead indoctrinated then again that is no different to growing up as a capitalist, a communist or fascist. Children who are born into a religion are no more likely to accept it than those born into a political ideology will accept that.
I do not think any effort should be put into which god or ideal to choose except for personal interpretation, I certainly wouldn't trust others with which beliefs I live my life under. All writings are subjective as are ideals that is the point the bible can be interpreted however you wish it to be as can the works of any of our phillosophers throughout history. That is as it should be it is important because otherwise one stultifies intellectually as they become reliant on the interpretations of others which is a recipe, in my opinion, for disaster both personal and in society at large. No other sphere is faith based Esin maths is not based on faith it is based on fact religion like ideology is not it is seperate.
Feel free to address any other concerns you might have Esin but I would point out before you do that simple guessing is always frowned upon in any sphere be it based in fact or faith.




The methodology humans deploy to arrive at a conclusion is very well understood.  The validity of an argument is determined by something which is called logical form. Which personal interpretation has no role or the weakest role in. However, the fact you keep falling back upon personal interpretation as the only tool necessary to arrive at a conclusion and expect rational people to find your claim plausiable / reasonable lacks all 'soundness'.  You are either attempting to be deceptive or misinformed.  Logic as it is understood today in most forms is empirical.  Because someone posses a Weak/Strong belief(cognative information one holds as true) does not make it factual. More frequently than not beliefs lead to cognitive dissonance.  Unreasonable beliefs are clearly harmful.  As a progressive and forward moving society such beliefs are eliminated prior to causing social/tribal friction.  This has also been demonstrated in evolutionary sciences but will be saved for another day.

The fact you strongly believe that one can arrive at a logical conclusion based upon personal intrepretation in this case of a holy text is incorrect.  The biggest problem is the holy text(book) is only a small slice of the available information.  The knowledge of the tribes/people, their experiences, reasons, history, culture and other writings must be understood. I explain in an earlier post why personal interpretation was not an acceptable method.  However, you ignored this attempt and fell back to the same argument using different words  (This was one of the other major faults I found in your 3 sentences.  You implied the bible was the only available evidence.  The bible is only 1/100th of the research one should review when attempting to determine if it is an authority compared to other holy books.)

DEEP BREATHE :)
The fact you implied or out right said you are only playing devils advocate here was more than enough reason to drop the conversation with you.  Which I did although it was a rather immature way - I was trying to be silly, I apologize.

E-Sinn

(in reply to Starbuck09)
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RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/26/2009 12:29:41 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


Sorry but I have better things to do than pick apart someones beliefs. You want to believe that all believers are out to impose their faith on you, that is your business. I don't see things that way. I know there are some who do, but I ignore them.


Unfortunately it's impossible to ignore them when they are in positions of power or have great influence on those in positions of power.

There is a book that's been out for a few years called "American Theocracy" that makes a very strong case against the religious influences that guided decisions in the Bush White House.

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/26/2009 12:54:00 PM   
Starbuck09


Posts: 724
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		 I am in no way playing Devil's advocate with you Esinn, I simply have a different viewpoint to the one you hold. The validity of an argument is based on logic only in matters of fact not those of faith. You cannot prove the existence of god to attempt to do so is an exercise in futility. Religion requires faith as this is the sacrifice needed which makes one's worship worthwhile. I do not have faith in gravity it is a demonstrable fact so to ''believe'' in it requires no sacrifice. Religion is different you can only read [in this case] the bible and decide if you like it's teachings or not, this is a completely personal choice [if it isn't it is indoctrination], from there you have another choice whether or not you believe these teachings are the word of god or not. This is nothing to do with fact it can't be so logic is irrelevant. If one could somehow prove god's existence then that would render the concept of faith and therefore sacrifice meaningless. Personal interpretation is all that matters in such a situation no one's word holds more weight than any other as they cannot possibly have more knowledge than you as beyond the bible there is no knowledge to be had. You cannot use logic when attempting to argue concepts of faith as logic is anaethma to it. The only part of this you can apply logic to is the teachings themselves [not their author or dictator] which makes more sense and why as in any other ideology such as capitalism fascism e.t.c. But this in itself is utterly subjective as there is no monolithic  right or wrong it is completely relative. For example I can use logic to argue the validity of the concept of a meritocracy or a dictatorship but if someone disagrees with my moral standpoint it renders the point moot. 
The experiences of the tribe e.t.c is extraneous information in this case. If i choose not to believe the bible was the word of god and I desired to know the reasons for it's commitment to paper [or possibly papyrus] that would be different as then one can use logic to provide answers. If however you do believe it is god's will manifest then that is not a matter for logic it is a leap of faith. You cannot change the odds of God nothing makes him more or less likely to exist so he is untouchable by fact. This is what you don't understand about my argument Esin all the other holy books are not ''evidence'' one way or another they are ideals whose worth is only determined by the individual's interpretation. Many people think socialim is the cure for the world's ill while some believe capitalism is the way forward neither is ''right'' it is up to your own personal interpretation of these ideals to determine that religion is no different.


Apology accepted Esinn.

< Message edited by Starbuck09 -- 6/26/2009 12:55:47 PM >

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RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/26/2009 2:05:35 PM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

Please accept my apology if I am inserting words into your mouth.
But what you are saying:

The perception of god is subjective.  However, the will and essence of god is objective?

I will buy into the first part as the very nature of any god is beyond the reach of human understanding.  I am of the opinion this must also be applied to gods will & essence too.  Even as a spiritual atheist I am troubled by attempting to understand god this way. That said thank you for the reply.  Care to elaborate in 2-3 paragraphs preferably here or in private?



Allow me to clarify and thus answer your question here and  I have no problem continuing to answer here in this public forum. By all accounts, man has yet to see and fully comprehend the actual nature of the entity called god. All of god's activities and doings were verbally passed down before actually these deeds were recorded in writing. Since the perception of god is subjective it is logical to state that his will and essence is also subjective. Simply because there are no absolute records to prove the true exact nature of the entity called god.

All records created over the ages have been translated from one language to another and another. As another had pointed out, the originals were transcribed at an age where the only people who were somewhat literate were monks and priests, errors creep in simply because of human nature.
Take into account that many words and/or phrases do not translate from one language to another, not only that but in some languages, a word many have several meanings depending upon the context of how that word is used. A prime example is the Inuits; they  have approx 20 different words for "snow." Plus we have to take into account that over the millennium, all languages evolve and change, so what may have been the original intent of what has been written in a bible also changed and mutated.
    To say that a bible is the truth is basically making an inaccurate assumption based upon too many inaccuracies of a collection of words written down. Maybe every single one of us who have a spiritual belief that in reality we have fallen into self deception: I don't know, yet the one truth I do know is that the entity which I call My Goddess could be what  a Christian calls God or a Jewish person calls Jehovah. It all boils down tot he fact that no matter what spiritual path we follow, it is a higher power we follow to some degree.


_____________________________

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RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/26/2009 2:16:42 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

I enjoy speaking about and studying religion but it was not the reason I came here.  I was shocked to even find this type of forum here.  That said I have been reading some threads.

They contain several problems.  The biggest one people assume the bible has some sort of authority because the bible says in its pages it does.  No one should be forced to bow down to this type of logic - circular reasoning.  It is like a DOM who demands but does not command respect.  There is no justification, no reason to respect them yet.  What this means relevant to this discussion until you are able to clearly demonstrate and articulate that the bible not the book of Mormon, Qur'an, Book of The Dead, Bhagavad Gita, Veda or Talmud is the true authority then stop quoting it like it is.  Remember you are the one making the positive assertion so you have taken on the burden of proof.

If you tell another person that their 'loved' one is cheating on them they will demand evidence prior to accepting this or taking action - rightfully so.  However, if you tell them an invisible being who created the known ex-nihlo also wrote the book on their nightstand this proposition is simply accepted as true?!?!?!.  Typically the book the believer accepts has more to do with geographic location than any type of informed research.  Most likely there was never a DDx(differential diagnosis)/comparative religious study.  I do not know how to hit this home.  The book was accepted because the family of the believer said so.  The family of the believer accepted the book because the book said it was true.  This not true in every case possibly not yours.

This is dangerous because each holy book makes exclusive claims which contradict each other demanding specific types of actions/behaviours of its followers.  These actions have caused friction in society with people who without religion are the same.  This friction has been escalated to war leading to the worst violence and blood shed man has known since the beginning.  It has also been used to justify torture well outside the realm of S&M.

Yes, yes I know you have faith.  I know understand the biblical definition of faith no need to quote it.  Faith is acceptance of something inspite of or in lack of evidence.  Each holy book has just as many followers with just as much faith as yourself - possibly a great deal more.  9/11 was a demonstration, a vile one mind you, of men with faith.  People have killed, died and tortured for their god will you? 

Aside from personal experience - all religions have believers with personal experience.
Aside from faith - all religions demand faith
Aside from circular reasoning

Why should I accept the bible?

E-Sin


I haven't got the slightest.

Why should you?

Was your post some sort of elitist treatise to get everyone "thinking"?

Righto....hope you got what you wanted out of the whole thing.

I found it rather boring actually.

Not in the remotest possible sense intellectual or new.


< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 6/26/2009 2:18:25 PM >

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RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/26/2009 3:22:36 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

I haven't got the slightest.

Why should you?

Was your post some sort of elitist treatise to get everyone "thinking"?

Righto....hope you got what you wanted out of the whole thing.

I found it rather boring actually.

Not in the remotest possible sense intellectual or new.


Agreed.  Boring, self-important, pompous drivel.  If you don't believe in something, cool.  I don't read the Bible, but I have hobbies.  I don't need to dissuade others from their beliefs in order to bolster my own beliefs or make me feel important. 

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RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/26/2009 3:38:45 PM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Kia, is that book quite literally, ALL writings, even Mary's? And is it still available? Just curious because, well, I am curious.
Sacred Texts is a good starting place if you're looking for apocrypha.


_____________________________

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Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

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RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/26/2009 3:46:00 PM   
ReverendJim


Posts: 43
Joined: 4/13/2009
Status: offline 		You don't have to own or read a bible to be a good christian

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RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/26/2009 3:49:34 PM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ReverendJim

You don't have to own or read a bible to be a good christian


True....though we who don't read the bible are often called heathens or pagans.  Tis a shame really since we still honor a higher power.


_____________________________

Do Not Rile da Chosen Bear

Promiscuous boy you already know
That I’m all yours what you waiting for?

Resident MANWHORE ~1000 Bear pts~

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/26/2009 3:53:37 PM   
JonnieBoy


Posts: 1468
Joined: 4/22/2009
From: Cymru
Status: offline 		I don't believe you have to be a Christian to be a "Good Christian" ... aren't Christians supposed to be nice (like me) 

Pirate

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/26/2009 3:56:59 PM   
ReverendJim


Posts: 43
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Status: offline 		Actualy the answer to that is yes

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RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/26/2009 3:57:41 PM   
JonnieBoy


Posts: 1468
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From: Cymru
Status: offline 		Thought so 

Pirate

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RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/26/2009 7:55:18 PM   
WoodenPaddle


Posts: 154
Joined: 5/7/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

I haven't got the slightest.

Why should you?

Was your post some sort of elitist treatise to get everyone "thinking"?

Righto....hope you got what you wanted out of the whole thing.

I found it rather boring actually.

Not in the remotest possible sense intellectual or new.


Agreed.  Boring, self-important, pompous drivel.  If you don't believe in something, cool.  I don't read the Bible, but I have hobbies.  I don't need to dissuade others from their beliefs in order to bolster my own beliefs or make me feel important. 


In that case, you definitely are a kind of masochist.
If you find it boring etc, why bother reading and even commenting on this post? You can just skip it.
Personally, I think the discussion isn't boring at all, it just has no real place on this forum, or at least not in the way it is going on now. But like I said: if you're not interested, don't read it, no-one here is making you.

In my opinion, it would be more interesting to discuss the influence the bible -or any other "holy" book has on BDSM in general.
My greatest problem is that word "holy"...for most people it seems to mean adding that word in and off itself makes something true and often beyond any discussion as well.

And though I'm not a "believer" I don't have to try and dismantle other peoples believe...as long as they're not using that unfounded, unproven believe to shove things down my throat. Sad to say, they often do.
Religion is something extremely personal. It's between you and your god and no-one elses business. But especially the followers of monotheistic religions seem to have an urge to enforce their way of belief on everyone else. If not by brute force, then by legislation or other means.

_____________________________

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RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/26/2009 8:22:36 PM   
DemonKia


Posts: 5521
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From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline 		Did you read what I wrote as an attack? Really? Wow . ... . . Jus', wow . .. . . A handy rule of thumb that helps me not over-react is to keep in mind that offense can be as much in the taking as in the giving . .. . . ..

& I'm also kinda scratching my head about how fast I jumped into this thread -- is there a speed limit posted that I missed?

I mostly just chipped in to add the info which I did add . . . . . I've been interested in topics religious since a very early age, if that's not kinda obvious from my nickname, lol . . . . . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

FR, after read thru

Esinn: what a weird place to post that question. You want a bunch of kinky folk to convince you why you should believe in the Christian bible? I'd think there are Christian forums where you can get lots more of what you're looking for . . . . .



Thanks for taking notice, D

Let me say you became involved in this thread rather quickly pumpkin.  I have a strange suspicion  if after your attack I can gather the courage to start another discussion  you might have more to say as well..  Prior to logging on even if you beat my ass with a rubber hose I would not have believed you if you told me such a forum was here.  Regardless of your sexual desires, no matter how nasty others may view them these 2 topics still remain social issues - I am a socially involved person.  It is nice to know, even if only on rare occasion, we as a community do think of things other than BDSM.

(in reply to Esinn)
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RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/26/2009 9:38:24 PM   
HatesParisHilton


Posts: 3513
Joined: 12/27/2006
Status: offline 		Did Jesus walk around with a Bible?

They had writing tools back then.

Debates in the Vatican for more than a century over whether or not he wore shoes, SOME debates over whether or not Big Daddy J ever wrote anything by hand.  But those BEFORE him did, so...

If Big Daddy J carried a Bible, you have your answer, e-sinn

If not, same again.

But I believe there is no record anywhere of  Big Daddy J carrying a bible thus he didn't need one.


I also believe my Bi friends and Queer friends don't need hetero genes and tendencies to be better Christians than the hets, hets (like myself and most likely, you, e-sinn) whom break a minimum of 4 Commandments every fucking week, and at least 2 a day.  (well, I probably only break 2 per week and one per day, but still)

None-the-less, e-sinn, you can take that up with St. Peter.

While you count the angels on the head of that pin that the Vatican argued over for several hundred years.

Since your post, manner and message board style, e-sinn, are about as old as such...

But I think you were born AFTER the first BBS networks at places like UCBerkeley were up and running, e-sinn, and are another polysyllabic adolescant recreating the wheel, flexing your muscles, the lion cub nipping at the Big Cats in the Pride (like the Lion/Christian metaphor there, just for you?).

So like any good Christians,

even though like a bad little child you indulged in the Cardinal Sin of Sloth by avoiding half a dozen direct questions put directly to you personally...

WE

FORGIVE

YOU




Pax Vobiscum, my Child

< Message edited by HatesParisHilton -- 6/26/2009 9:56:22 PM >

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RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/26/2009 9:44:36 PM   
HatesParisHilton


Posts: 3513
Joined: 12/27/2006
Status: offline 		"That might work in your play, but it doesn't play in real life, as something created after a certain image does not always remain reflective of that same image. That would be synonymous with saying all parents are exactly like their children. "

Bullshit.  You sound like the Creative Commons fucktards that use "nothing is new under the sun" to justify any lazy-ass Gen Y turdling the right to "mash up" the copyrighted and trademarked work of people like Fritz Lang and claim that just because the little eccy-fried fucktard used some fast-cutting and ghetto-ass editing filters on his Uncles' Avid Bay it's "new and legally different".

Total fucking bullshit.

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RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/27/2009 12:51:51 AM   
Alphascendant


Posts: 285
Status: offline 		If the homosapien species originated about 200,000 years ago and most dinosaurs became extinct about 65 million years ago, how could there be a recollection of anybody seeing a dinosaur? Where in the Bible does anybody describe an animal preying on a sheep? Reading a bible does not make a person good, not reading it does not make a person bad. To question or debate any topic should not ever be wrong and anybody who condemns, ridicules, or insults another for not being in agreement has the kind of mentality that makes reading through these forums increasingly more difficult. But, I suppose that's why many are here, because away from the security of their computers, that negativity is not winning many worthwhile friends. The Bible has no authority and it's words are only as meaningful or good as the person interpreting them. Quite possibly, originally intended as a guideline on how to live a wholesome compassionate life, having fallen into the hands of greedy, violent, angry, and hateful people, it is what it has become today, a tool for destruction. 

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RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/27/2009 12:55:15 AM   
Esinn


Posts: 886
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Did you read what I wrote as an attack? Really? Wow . ... . . Jus', wow . .. . . A handy rule of thumb that helps me not over-react is to keep in mind that offense can be as much in the taking as in the giving . .. . . ..

& I'm also kinda scratching my head about how fast I jumped into this thread -- is there a speed limit posted that I missed?

I mostly just chipped in to add the info which I did add . . . . . I've been interested in topics religious since a very early age, if that's not kinda obvious from my nickname, lol . . . . . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

FR, after read thru

Esinn: what a weird place to post that question. You want a bunch of kinky folk to convince you why you should believe in the Christian bible? I'd think there are Christian forums where you can get lots more of what you're looking for . . . . .



Thanks for taking notice, D

Let me say you became involved in this thread rather quickly pumpkin.  I have a strange suspicion  if after your attack I can gather the courage to start another discussion  you might have more to say as well..  Prior to logging on even if you beat my ass with a rubber hose I would not have believed you if you told me such a forum was here.  Regardless of your sexual desires, no matter how nasty others may view them these 2 topics still remain social issues - I am a socially involved person.  It is nice to know, even if only on rare occasion, we as a community do think of things other than BDSM.



Thanks for following up, D.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/27/2009 1:01:47 AM   
HatesParisHilton


Posts: 3513
Joined: 12/27/2006
Status: offline 		Pax Vobiscum, kiddo

_____________________________

I am (now) "Hiltie", hear me ROARRRRR! And have a cuffy cake, they're nice.

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RE: Authority of the Bible? - 6/27/2009 1:17:27 AM   
ReverendJim


Posts: 43
Joined: 4/13/2009
Status: offline 		Like I said,you don't have to own or read a bible to be a good christian


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Profile   Post #: 100
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