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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 4:20:24 PM

GreedyTop

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Why should TS's use the function? Look at the sheer ignorance and bias against them. Like most people, most Ts's would prefer to be known as a PERSON, not their genitalia. If they mention in the profile that they are TS, then they ARE NOT being dishonest. If they wait until they've gotten to know someone a bit before disclosing, they are not being dishonest, they are waiting to judge if the person they are talking to might be able to handle the info.

I have things *I* dont disclose until I know someone fairly well, because I know that some people would judge THE ISSUE, not THE PERSON.

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 4:21:15 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

Was I right to challenge this post-op transsexual for having their gender down as female or am I being ignorant?

My opinion is this: gender should not be open to discussion or a matter of opinion, if you're born female or male then that is what you are, if you have surgery to change this then you are transsexual, by all means consider yourself female but please don't expect others to. :)

Quite bluntly, yes, you are being ignorant and while you are entitled to your opinion, you clearly have no real understanding of what it is about which you speak.

This is just -my- opinion, but I really can't grasp this whole "unless you're born in a particular gender, you don't deserve to orient in a way that makes you most comfortable and have your orientation accepted by the public" perspective. To me, if she's living as female, is post-op, and passes as female, why the FLIP should it matter -- she's female in EVERY way that matters.

Dame Calla

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 4:22:42 PM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
1. A "transexual" is someone who desires to live as a member of the other gender, and undergo surgery to do so. It would be a lie for a post-op male or female to label their profile as TS, unless they want to change back.

If this were entirely true, there wouldn't be terms like "pre-op transexual" and "post-op transexual."

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 4:25:19 PM

RedMagic1

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I deal with science, and use medical terminology. There's lots of phrases bandied about. I like to be precise, especially when a conversation topic is controversial.

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 4:25:34 PM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop
Why should TS's use the function? Look at the sheer ignorance and bias against them. Like most people, most Ts's would prefer to be known as a PERSON, not their genitalia. If they mention in the profile that they are TS, then they ARE NOT being dishonest. If they wait until they've gotten to know someone a bit before disclosing, they are not being dishonest, they are waiting to judge if the person they are talking to might be able to handle the info.

I have things *I* dont disclose until I know someone fairly well, because I know that some people would judge THE ISSUE, not THE PERSON.

Again, on the one hand, I totally agree with you. However on the other hand, the issues you have (or the many I have) will not typically cause some lame-ass to freak out and try and beat us to death to secure his hetero status. That's happend far too many times. If you can thwart that with a simple label change on a profile, why not do that? Why wait until things get heated and personal before saying "Oh by the way......" That way, if they have an issue with you....they can just....not e-mail you. (Yes I know that probably won't help them 'not e-mail' a ts person, but still......it's the theory.)

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 4:26:59 PM

YoungMaster1988

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Quite bluntly, yes, you are being ignorant and while you are entitled to your opinion, you clearly have no real understanding of what it is about which you speak.

You're exactly right, I don't have great understanding about what I'm talking about, that is why I created this thread, to get opinions and information from others who do know what they're talking about, and as someone else pointed out I guess on one level it is to try and reinforce my opinion.

While some people criticise me for making this thread I think its better to try and understand why people have issues with what I'm talking about than to just ignore it and continue as I was.

At the end of the day I'm just being honest and trying to learn more on the subject, if I come off as some ignorant plebend while doing so then so be it.

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Post #: 26

RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 4:29:16 PM

GreedyTop

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop
Why should TS's use the function? Look at the sheer ignorance and bias against them. Like most people, most Ts's would prefer to be known as a PERSON, not their genitalia. If they mention in the profile that they are TS, then they ARE NOT being dishonest. If they wait until they've gotten to know someone a bit before disclosing, they are not being dishonest, they are waiting to judge if the person they are talking to might be able to handle the info.

I have things *I* dont disclose until I know someone fairly well, because I know that some people would judge THE ISSUE, not THE PERSON.

Again, on the one hand, I totally agree with you. However on the other hand, the issues you have (or the many I have) will not typically cause some lame-ass to freak out and try and beat us to death to secure his hetero status. That's happend far too many times. If you can thwart that with a simple label change on a profile, why not do that? Why wait until things get heated and personal before saying "Oh by the way......" That way, if they have an issue with you....they can just....not e-mail you. (Yes I know that probably won't help them 'not e-mail' a ts person, but still......it's the theory.)

ok, if I am understanding you, Loki, then we are pretty much in agreement, except for WHERE it should be stated... if someone WANTS to put it on their profile, great.. but I also understand why some may NOT want to use it as a tick box......,

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 4:32:32 PM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
Oh goodie, a hate thread. I was afraid we would have an entire day celebrating freedom and independence without one.

Too much to ask, alas.

And op, you deserve the grief you've caused yourself.

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 4:36:21 PM

YoungMaster1988

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quote:

]

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
Oh goodie, a hate thread. I was afraid we would have an entire day celebrating freedom and independence without one.

Too much to ask, alas.

And op, you deserve the grief you've caused yourself.

Kind of ironic that you talk of celebrating freedom yet I'm ridiculed for talking about this and my opinion on the matter, my only issue is with classification of transsexuals in the search function, I don't have an issue with them as people.

Anyway I don't want to appear confrontational so moving on...

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Post #: 29

RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 4:37:38 PM

WarKirby

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A post op trans gender option would be pointless. Such a person is, for all intents and purposes, female. If you find a person of this circumstance to be unattractive, there is literally no difference from a biological female that you find unattractive. Unless you're specifically looking for someone to have your children, there is zero reason you should care in the slightest. Even requiring them to divulge their history is unfair, not upfront, and not ever if they don't want to.

If someone has a vagina, they're female. if their facial features are too "mannish" for your tastes, then put them down as a female you don't find attractive, and move on. If someone is post op, there are only two possible reasons why you should care to differentiate them from any biological woman.

1. You seek someone to start a family with.
2. You have an illogical mental barrier against people who you consider "unnatural".

If it's the second one, that's your problem to deal with, and people are going to have a problem with that. If you would turn down someone who looks beautiful, and has a vagina, just because they weren't born with it, you have a prejudice you need to deal with. Possibly insecurity in your own sexuality.
Now, if someone is pre-op, then it's relevant. And pretty much necessary to know.

For the record, I'm a bisexual male dom, with a slight preference for pre-op TS, over biological females. I consider post-op trans people to be no different to people who were born of that gender.

< Message edited by WarKirby -- 7/4/2009 4:41:33 PM >

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Post #: 30

RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 4:42:26 PM

GreedyTop

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*applauds Kirby*

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 4:46:01 PM

RedMagic1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YoungMaster1988
My opinion is this: gender should not be open to discussion or a matter of opinion, if you're born female or male then that is what you are, if you have surgery to change this then you are transsexual, by all means consider yourself female but please don't expect others to. :)

Doctors and government bodies say one thing. You say something else. If gender "is not a matter of opinion," then the one whose ideas need to change is you.

It is disingenuous of you to pretend you were just asking a question, or to claim that people are ridiculing you. If you just wanted to ask a question, you could have posted your question, and not included everything else, before and after it. Instead, you framed your question as though were doing the right thing, and those other people were opinionated and uptight. That is why you are getting pushback. The paragraph that included the question is fine. You might want to ask yourself why you thought it was important to include the rest of what you wrote.

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Post #: 32

RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 4:51:51 PM

Racquelle

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Part of me, in my heart of hearts feels that a male who has become female by hormones and surgery is not entirely the same as a woman who was born female and grew up as female. And I don't say that to suggest this person is somehow less or bad - just not the same. Gender is so much about how one is raised, socialized, and even the biochemical experiences of growing up and puberty and all that. A woman who became one at age 40 simply has not had the life of a woman born as one. That is my emotional take on it in any case.

Be that as it may - I adore gender spinning and gender change and just generally subverting stupid ass paradigms of femininity, masculinity and the like. I like the way having trans friends has let me learn more about the world and about myself. I define myself in my own terms, and I see some common beliefs about women as poppycock and nonsense, just as many trans friends have helped me see. Gender is not like a firetruck. Gender is so very complex. It's DNA, it's genital structure, it's culture, it's tradition and one simple definition has never applied. Never.

So if you don't dig trans women, just say so in your profile and get the fuck over it. I come across tons of people I wouldn't click with on here, and because of that, I give certain criteria in my profile, and I don't hold them responsible for what I like and don't like.

What makes you a man? Your penis? What if you were born without it? Would you still be you? Would you still be your gender?

< Message edited by Racquelle -- 7/4/2009 4:54:09 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 4:52:35 PM

YoungMaster1988

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: YoungMaster1988
My opinion is this: gender should not be open to discussion or a matter of opinion, if you're born female or male then that is what you are, if you have surgery to change this then you are transsexual, by all means consider yourself female but please don't expect others to. :)

Doctors and government bodies say one thing. You say something else. If gender "is not a matter of opinion," then the one whose ideas need to change is you.

It is disingenuous of you to pretend you were just asking a question, or to claim that people are ridiculing you. If you just wanted to ask a question, you could have posted your question, and not included everything else, before and after it. Instead, you framed your question as though were doing the right thing, and those other people were opinionated and uptight. That is why you are getting pushback. The paragraph that included the question is fine. You might want to ask yourself why you thought it was important to include the rest of what you wrote.

I included it because I guess I wanted people to know my opinion and where I stood in the debate, just because I'm the op I don't see why I should remain neutral. I'm not saying I'm right, just that it is my opinion, if people think I'm wrong or a dick then fair enough - they can think that.

I think what I've learned from this thread is that gender is subjective, take Kirby's post for example - it is from a bisexual's point of view and he says they should be classed as female on the site, where as mine from a straight man is the opposite (I stress just in terms of classification on this site).

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 34

RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 4:54:06 PM

OsideGirl

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Were you somehow under the impression that RedMagic isn't a straight male?

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 4:57:37 PM

GreedyTop

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~FR~

and what about intersexed folk? Those whose DNA contains the chromosomes for BOTH sexes??

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RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 4:59:07 PM

beargonewild

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YoungMaster1988

I seem to have caused a slight uproar in the transsexual/"gender dysphoria" community by sending a user a tongue-in-cheek (probably not the right decision but still) message about how said person should list themselves as TS rather than Female as they are a post-op transsexual.

It just irritated me a bit that after having female in my search preferences a number of transsexual profiles came up (with them revealing themselves as post-op later on in their profile).

Anyway, since my message they've written a blog about me and I've recieved a bit of hate mail off them and their fans (but I'm blocked so I can't respond - seems a little unfair?) and I was just wondering what the general view on this is? Was I right to challenge this post-op transsexual for having their gender down as female or am I being ignorant?

My opinion is this: gender should not be open to discussion or a matter of opinion, if you're born female or male then that is what you are, if you have surgery to change this then you are transsexual, by all means consider yourself female but please don't expect others to. :)

You say you're irritated because you didn't read that the person stated she was post op right at the beginning eh....try to imagine how they felt when you decided to tell them how they should classify themselves in their profile.? Frankly I am not surprised this person has you blocked, maybe next time you will use a bit more sensitivity before making any comment, even if it appeared harmless. Let this be a lesson for next time so you'll fully read a woman's profile before making inaccurate and inappropriate comments.

You have no right to challenge any person who is transitioning from one gender to another in regards to how they should label themselves gender wise. Understand that a person who is pre-op has tough enough time trying to understand and cope with the process and deal with all the psychological issues with the whole process as well as dealing with the bullshit prejudice they face from society, including the gay community, especially when the TG person identifies as gay or lesbian. Next time when a person tells you they are transitioning from M2F or F2M, think of them as what they say they ultimately are and accept that they are the gender they are becoming. even if they aren't post op at that point.

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Post #: 37

RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 4:59:33 PM

WarKirby

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YoungMaster1988
I think what I've learned from this thread is that gender is subjective, take Kirby's post for example - it is from a bisexual's point of view and he says they should be classed as female on the site, where as mine from a straight man is the opposite (I stress just in terms of classification on this site).

My viewpoint is from a logical point of view. I'd like you to explain, as a straight man, what do you dislike about transexuals? As far as I can tell, it seems to boil down to some base "icky" feeling you have.

If someone looks like a woman, smells like a woman, tastes like a woman, fucks like only a woman can. Why are they not a woman? This isn't a case of viewpoints. This is an objective question of logic. What is it that defines a woman, which post ops don't have ?

(in reply to YoungMaster1988)

Post #: 38

RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 5:10:29 PM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop
ok, if I am understanding you, Loki, then we are pretty much in agreement, except for WHERE it should be stated... if someone WANTS to put it on their profile, great.. but I also understand why some may NOT want to use it as a tick box......,

Yep, we agree. We even agree on the tick mark box thing. I'm kinda like Harvey Dent from Batman (aka Two-Face). As in, I'm of two minds on the subject. One the one hand.....it's there, why not use it. On the other....why should they have to label themselves. It's not just a simple issue for the TS person *or* their would-be suitors.

I mean, if *I* were a TS person, I would likely use the label, just so I could point and laugh at the idiots who ignored it (and they do). But at the same time, I'd be annoyed that I had to use the label at all. Like I said....not a simple issue.

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Post #: 39

RE: Transsexual = Female? - 7/4/2009 5:14:07 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop
A transsexual person IS the gender that they identify as. Just because YOU have a problem with it is no reason for them to identify by the gender they were born into.

On the one hand, you're absolutely right. However, a couple of short years ago "TS" wasn't even an option on this site. You had to pick one or the other. Finally, they made TS selectable and still people avoid it. It's like they successfully got the site to allow for that option as the first two were too 'limiting' and then they decided not to use the option after all.

It is a bit dishonest, if you think about it. I mean, it's going to come out eventually anyway, why not just be honest? Why risk the fallout from someone finding out after the fact that you're not a genetic female or male? There have been more than a handful of stories in the news about just what can happen when the wrong type of person finds out the woman they were dating wasn't a woman when she was born.

No matter what a person identifies as after surgery, it will never change the fact that they did, in fact, have surgery. Therefore, by definition, they are transexual.

Did you miss the part of the OP where it stated that the profiles he read revealed they were transexual further down ? How is this misleading anyone, unless they dont bother to read the whole profile ?

(in reply to Loki45)

Post #: 40

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