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RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/6/2009 5:40:11 AM   
JonnieBoy


Posts: 1468
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From: Cymru
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
I find it deeply offensive that no matter what Israel does, she as a nation gets criticized.

No matter WHAT ? ... Does that include war crimes ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
I find it offensive that 6 million Jews were genocided

You, me and millions worldwide but I'm not sure what that has to do with the war crimes Israel refuses to address?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
Israel still has to defend itself and its right to exist.

War crimes is a means of defence eh? (ponders WHY they're called war "crimes" in that case)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
I do not defend everything the Israeli government does defensible

So you just get offended when its actions are seen as indefensible?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
a country the size of New Jersey, surrounded by Arab hatred.

And there was me thinking Israel had a coastline !

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
What many do not understand is how deeply the Holocaust is embedded in the psyche of most Jews, just as the slavery experience here is embedded in the psyche of African Americans in this country.  

And your point is (in relation to Israeli war crimes) ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
Try living there before you level your criticisms.  

Where, Israel ? I'm not sure the climate would suit me.

Shifting the focus elsewhere is an easy cop out (we all know there are plenty of war criminals and war crimes happen elsewhere). To exclude other nations or forces, YOUR views on the UN interaction with Israel over the issue of it's war crimes is what exactly ?

Pirate

(in reply to Firebirdseeking)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/6/2009 7:12:03 AM   
Firebirdseeking


Posts: 477
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline 		Youre making this an entirely intellectual argument - which it is not. 

I have learned that if someone such as yourself cannot even consider the possibility that he or she COULD be wrong, there is no point in discussing further

It sounds like you know it all so I have no need to continue.

(in reply to JonnieBoy)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/6/2009 7:21:29 AM   
JonnieBoy


Posts: 1468
Joined: 4/22/2009
From: Cymru
Status: offline 		Independent reports are to be disregarded is, I presume, the upshot of your comment ?

I guess that I am evil incarnate in some eyes for seeing these reports and considering them as credible ?

Avoid the truth to your hearts content, you, at least, have the FREEDOM to do so.

Pirate

(in reply to Firebirdseeking)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/6/2009 7:43:27 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
...
I have learned that if someone such as yourself cannot even consider the possibility that he or she COULD be wrong, there is no point in discussing further
...


Well ...


You are making quite a good argument for ignoring your contributions to this debate, considering the way you are brushing off the discussion points in favour of denouncing every criticism of the Israeli government as antisemitic.

_____________________________

"Whenever people are laughing, they are generally not killing one another"
Alan Alda


(in reply to Firebirdseeking)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/6/2009 10:11:42 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
...
I have learned that if someone such as yourself cannot even consider the possibility that he or she COULD be wrong, there is no point in discussing further
...


Well ...


You are making quite a good argument for ignoring your contributions to this debate, considering the way you are brushing off the discussion points in favour of denouncing every criticism of the Israeli government as antisemitic.

No, she's just recognizing that some people aren't here to debate at all.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to calamitysandra)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/6/2009 10:44:56 AM   
JonnieBoy


Posts: 1468
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From: Cymru
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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
...
I have learned that if someone such as yourself cannot even consider the possibility that he or she COULD be wrong, there is no point in discussing further
...


Well ...


You are making quite a good argument for ignoring your contributions to this debate, considering the way you are brushing off the discussion points in favour of denouncing every criticism of the Israeli government as antisemitic.


I am most convinced by the point you make here calamitysandra and for the benefit of no one other than yourself ... I am not anti semitic. That does not mean that the well trained "birds of prey" do not still hover over me, I shall not fear them because they are hunting a greater predator. That is their folly, not mine.

The thing is ... the possibility that the most reliable and respected students views (not to devalue my own) could be "considered" "wrong" and should be ignored is looking as slim as the possibility that there ware no gas chambers in Deutschland in WWII or that The Japanese never enslaved their POW's. The history of those atrocities lives long in the memory too.

Back to the topic ... one can "deny" these crimes ... but it will never mean they did not happen and that the slaughter and human misery caused will ever be forgotten by the surviving victims. That could of course be the words and feelings expressed by millions worldwide in relation to this along with other "conflicts" and wars and indeed over history. Does the UN give a shit as regards making a blind bit of difference? ... Nope.

So this will happen again ? ... Do your history ... it already has.

Pirate


(in reply to calamitysandra)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/6/2009 10:48:18 AM   
JonnieBoy


Posts: 1468
Joined: 4/22/2009
From: Cymru
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
some people aren't here to debate


Like WHO ?

Pirate

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/6/2009 11:44:40 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

No, she's just recognizing that some people aren't here to debate at all.

Firm


Seeing how she was not debating, but instead ranting and accusing, she would firmly be seated with the non-debaters.


_____________________________

"Whenever people are laughing, they are generally not killing one another"
Alan Alda


(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/6/2009 11:53:30 AM   
nelly33


Posts: 96
Joined: 8/17/2008
Status: offline 		well this reply is kind of all over the place, so I'll try to make my opinions as clear as possible.  First off, I certainly agree with LadyEllen that living in a country is not a prerequisite for judgment.  Do we need to live in Darfur to condemn the Sudanese government for its actions?  But in part, I also agree with Firebird... Israel is in a very unique situation, that in my opinion, DOES indeed seperate it from other nations with poor human rights records... many of Israel's neighbors have sworn to destroy it.  This is much different than nations such as Sudan, or China, or Korea, or Iran, because these countries do not have a reasonable fear of destruction that Israel has.  Obviously this is just my opinion, but this is also an area that I have studied, and I believe that Israel must be granted some latitude becasue of its precarious situation.  Israel cannot let its gaurd down, or break down militarily, becasue then it would almost certainly be destroyed by any number of countries.  Israel has been attacked numerous times in the past by many other nations... check for the Six Day War, or the Yom Kippur War.
JonnieBoy, I realize that the attention of your thread was not meant to go in this direction, as the Israel debate has been done over and over, but it looked like this is what it evolved into.  But you must picture the state that America was in after 9/11.  Israel is basically in this state every day.  It is attacked by terrorists constantly.  Look how many chages there were after one terrorist attack in the US... there have been countless in Israel.  The situation is further complicated because inside of Palastine and Israel, it is very hard to tell who is on what side.  For better or for worse, I liken it to the situation in Vietnam where the enemy could have been anyone.  Innocents suffered becasue American troops didn't know who was who... but should they allow themselves to be killed in order to find out?  This is not a defense of one view or another, just something to think about.
To get back to the original topic, like I said earlier in the thread, the UN wil never sanction Israel as long as the US is on the Security Council, which is indefinately.  The thread very well could have ended there, as this is basically fact, and answers the OP.
Also, these personal attacks on each other are uncalled for, and make everybody sound like children.  I bet none of you would say these things face to face.  I might very well be the youngest one in this thread, and if I can see how this is devolving, I hope you guys can too.  Drunken arguements I get into in bars are more respectful than this.

(in reply to JonnieBoy)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/6/2009 12:40:58 PM   
subbisherri


Posts: 109
Joined: 5/28/2006
Status: offline 		I have an IDF poster that sums it up nicely: If Hamas put down its weapons, in a week there would be no war. If Israel put down its weapons, in a week there would be no Israel.
I'll take the Israeli version of human rights and democratic practice over that of Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, PLO, PFLP et al.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/6/2009 12:50:58 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		I'd like a definition of a "war crime", because as far as I'm concerned if one is in a war, one does whatever it takes to survive and destroy his enemy.

IMO Israel has shown great restraint in defending itself. Fuck the UN and groups like Amnesty International.

(in reply to subbisherri)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/6/2009 1:08:46 PM   
JonnieBoy


Posts: 1468
Joined: 4/22/2009
From: Cymru
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

I'd like a definition of a "war crime", because as far as I'm concerned if one is in a war, one does whatever it takes to survive and destroy his enemy.

IMO Israel has shown great restraint in defending itself. Fuck the UN and groups like Amnesty International.



I understand that, but if one should presume upon the treaties one should uphold them. No one has yet asked me what my call would be if I ever advocated war, but that seems to me because I think they know the answer.

Your opinion is something that you are FREE to hold, as I am I mine, we are both fortunate in that respect.

Thanks too for getting this topic back on track.

Pirate

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/6/2009 1:34:21 PM   
subbisherri


Posts: 109
Joined: 5/28/2006
Status: offline 		In keeping with the theme of getting the thread back on track:

quote:

One wonders if EVER the United Nations will take Israel to task over its APPALLING record on human rights and independently established GUILT over ... war crimes, quite simply.


The UN General Assembly HAS made attempts to "take Israel to task," witness Durban I. Sadly, that conference degenerated into an anti-Semetic bash-the-jews fest which left it without credibility in pretty much every country that follows a democratic tradition.
UN General Assembly resolutions are NOT binding, they can say anything they want but can't do much of anything to back up their statements. ONLY UNSC resolutions have any force, and UNSC HAS made resolutions comdemning Israeli actions and policies. Strong action though will not happen since the US apply their veto, much as an earlier post alluded to the UN's failure in Sudan due mostly to Chinese resistance.

There is in certain circles a feeling that should Israel come under closer examination, so will the actions and policies of her Arab neighbors, and none of them want that.

So my bet is that the UN will continue on its path of making bold statements, backed up with absolutely nothing of substance. Hamas will keep launching rockets, Israel will keep responding with force. Iran will continue to make provocative and hostile statements while pursuing nuclear weapons, and Israel will hope for a diplomatic solution right up to the day they flatten Iran's nuclear program a al Osirak in 1981.

And people like you will continue to revel in pretend moral superiority.


(in reply to JonnieBoy)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/6/2009 5:11:04 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking

Youre making this an entirely intellectual argument - which it is not. 



...well, yes and no.

To some people, clearly, this subject can only be discussed on the basis of subjective feelings. Both theirs and their understanding of how an entire race feels. To others, it can be discussed as objectively as their particular lights allow.

It's a bit like a soccer match. Everton play Liverpool. You're not going to get an Everton fan who says thet liverpool derserve to win, or vice versa.

FBS, you're not here to debate. you're here to make sure we hear your version of the truth....that Israel is entitled to respond as it will due to a combination of present and past circumstances.

There are others, not necessarily in this thread, who seem as attached to the opposite pole of that argument. Not anti-semitic, and your suggestion that any criticism of the governance of Israel was anti-semitic is laughable.

There'll be no meeting of minds i'm afraid...

(in reply to Firebirdseeking)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/6/2009 5:14:44 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		<snip>
It's a bit like a soccer match. Everton play Liverpool. You're not going to get an Everton fan who says thet liverpool derserve to win, or vice versa.
</snip>

Why didn't you capitalize liverpool the second time phil?  YOUR bias is clear.  And there is that to deal with........when talking globally......

LOL.

Ron  

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/6/2009 8:02:37 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		...scousers......

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/6/2009 8:04:09 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		And when I see the sign that points one way............

Left Banke

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/7/2009 5:29:55 AM   
JonnieBoy


Posts: 1468
Joined: 4/22/2009
From: Cymru
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33.
To get back to the original topic, like I said earlier in the thread, the UN wil never sanction Israel as long as the US is on the Security Council, which is indefinately.  The thread very well could have ended there, as this is basically fact, and answers the OP.

You could be right, certainly you've at least tackled the issue

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33
Also, these personal attacks.

I hope you're not suggesting from me ... ?

Pirate

(in reply to nelly33)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/7/2009 10:12:15 AM   
ienigma777


Posts: 283
Joined: 2/20/2009
Status: offline 		Well Mr. Jonnieboy, posting such a question as this, and the silence, simply demonstrates that people are concerned with more important subjects, like MJ memorial and tribute forums.

It has or never dawns on anyone, that this Israel thing is somewhat simular to the China thing. I mean, China is a communist nation, the US has been against communism ever since I can imagine, remember the US propaganda in the 50's, the 'Herbert Filbrick, I lead three lives, the McCarthy hearings......yet China is embraced openly by the US, trades with a communist China wholesale, everything one buys is 'made in China'. So why is that? Why does the US smash every other country who purports their communism, but not China?

Israel is the same with the US, and the UN, no chastisment, it does what it wants......BECAUSE, they are the CHOSEN PEOPLE.....whosoever blesses them shall themselves be blessed...but whosoever curses them so they shall be cursed.....It's in the book. (Well, not Volkswagen)

Supporting Israel gives the US the 'inside Track' justification, to the Middle East and it's resources, also supporting Saudi Arabia does the same. If either one is threatened, then Captain America to the rescue.

The UN could do nothing when Bush invaded Iraq, it was powerless to enforce anything. Just alot of blah, blah.

Besides, people care about things that really are important to their lives, things that will have an impact on their lives,... like, .....well.....like Michael Jackson.

(in reply to JonnieBoy)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: War Crimes, Israel and the UN - 7/7/2009 10:31:28 AM   
nelly33


Posts: 96
Joined: 8/17/2008
Status: offline 		I disagree with the moral inside track argument you are making.  I believe that the US supports Israel because it is one of the few "Westernized" nations in the Middle East, and is a strong ally of the US.  I don't believe that any biblical argument is valid.  Why would Americans buy the fact that Israel is full of the "Chosen People" when it is really only Jews that believe that, and America is vastly Christian.  The reasons for support, in my view, are purely political.

(in reply to ienigma777)
Profile   Post #: 60
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