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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/11/2009 11:29:04 PM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
Of course I'll try to defend people whom I know and can vouch for against the actions of someone who has shown every indication of being a net loss - that's rational. But if I do, I'll try and take them down quickly and cleanly. I'll try to subdue rather than wound, for example, and maim or kill only as a last resort. Now, keep in mind that "last resort" can be a pretty quick decision - if it's clear that it'd be incredibly dangerous to approach them, and I have an easy short with my AR-15, they're getting an AR-15 to the face without a blink. I'll feel horrible about it afterwards, but I'd feel more horrible doing nothing.

Does this make sense?


On its own? Yes it makes wonderful sense. But with this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
That's trivially easy to answer: Before the deed is done, my lover is still alive, and my actions could save them. After they've killed them, nothing I do can improve the situation. I act to make things better. How do you not understand this?


It doesn't. If the person who just coldly, brutally murdered your loved one is not put down, the blood of his next victim is on your hands as well. Sure, your loved one is gone, so you can't save them. But killers usually aren't content with just one victim, nor are theives, nor is nearly anyone else who turns to crime. Don't lock up a murderer? His next victim is a life you could have saved. Don't lock up a theif? The next person who comes home to an empty house might not have, if you'd only acted. How is it you are not understanding this?

You say you act to make things better. In the scenario I posted, the difference between you and me is you are thinking short-term. For your loved one only. I'm thinking of everyone. Everyone, that is, except for the murderer who in my opinion forfeited his right to live the moment her murdered my loved one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
Which is yet another reason why our justice system is fucked. We need to fix these people, not pen them up where they learn how to be worse thugs from each other. And the ones that can't be fixed, we need to put down, as gently and humanely as we can.


How do you fix someone who is beyond repair? In the scenario I posted....what about that murderer gives you the impression he could be fixed? Could the BTK killer be 'fixed' and released into society? How about Ted Bundy? How about the Son of Sam? Can they be fixed? I doubt it. There are just some people who delight in the harm they cause others. Hell, look at this site. Some men on here get women based on their sadistic tendencise. We're on a site about a LIFESTYLE where sadists have a following because of the seeming uncaring way in which they tornment their partner....but we draw the line because we tell ourselves it's "consentual." Riddle me this. Take some of the "best" sadists here that the masochistic women drool over and take away their willing participants. Ever thought about what would happen? I have....and it's not a pleasant thought.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
I'd rather we not have that humor at other peoples' expenses. The world is fucked and we shouldn't be trying to make it worse than it already is.


Are you serious? Most of humor is at someone else's expense. Take any comedic movie out now....most of the situations are us laughing at the plight of some hapless on-screen nitwit who has ridiculously bad luck in life. Look at Eddie Murphy, Richard Pryor. Any great "comedian." They make a living poking fun a someone else'se appearance, stupidity, lack of common sense, etc. That's the basis for comedy.

Hell, look at the THREE STOOGES. Three guys beating the tar out of each other and acting like idiots. And we laugh. We laugh at their 'expense.' To me, laughing at unintended comedy is the same as laughing at intended comedy.

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

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Profile   Post #: 141
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/11/2009 11:38:13 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

Sure sounds like punishment to me.


Well it isn't. If you'd have ever read a little on corrections, you'd understand that. Seperating a dangerous person from society is not the same as punishing them. It's completely spelled out in inmate maintenance manuals in almost every prison. We used to punish inmates. We used to whip them leather straps when the didn't comply. In my own state, we has something called the "Tucker telephone." It was an old wind up phone with a car battery attached. It was hooked to the inmates big toe and genitals. Try to take a guess how that felt. We used to also have a "trusty system" here. The guards were the inmates. Convicted killers carried guns and kept the inmates in line. That occurred all the way up to 1970. Arkansas' penal system finally got ruled a unconstitutional system. We were the first state that ever happened to. The Feds came in and took over for 20 years.

Seperation is much, much different from punishment. If you don't understand that, I can't explain it to you further.

quote:

Some don't want to. Their criminal 'enterprises' are just as easily run from behind bars.


How do they do that? It's a lack of control from the guards. Believe it or not, the guards bring in most of the contraband. I know you think cops are beyond that, but it's the truth. You don't believe me, go take a tour of a state prison one day. The guards get searched too. Phone calls are monitored and recorded. Mail is opened and read. They can't stop the mail, it's unconstitutional to do it. Loki, I know a lot more about this than you do. I write to a few inmates. I go throught the visitation ordeal. I have toured prisons as a student. Trust me, they search EVERYTHING. The guards are not as open to scrutiny. They cause most of this.

quote:

How does one make restitution at all? If they stole from someone to begin with, you honestly expect them to pay it back? If they had the lack of compassion for their victims enough to steal in the first place, why the hell would they be expected to 'make restitution' on their own?


Do you know what wage garnishments are? Ever heard of it? We have ways of making them pay this back. You can go after people's bank accounts, you can go after their tax returns, their assets, etc, etc. Trust me, I know. I have been the plaintiff in a civil suit. You can get money from people when you want to, even if they try to hide it. It's even easier with a criminal. They have to work on probation, they have to report their income. So you take their money. If they fail to comply, you put them in a community work program, where they make barely nothing, and they live in the county jail or home confinement. Trust me, that sucks. I've seen it used effectively.

(in reply to Loki45)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/11/2009 11:41:09 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45
It doesn't. If the person who just coldly, brutally murdered your loved one is not put down, the blood of his next victim is on your hands as well.


What part of "we need to fix them" didn't you read? Of course you keep them restricted while you're repairing them, for the same reason you shut down malfunctioning equipment before going in to fix it - you don't want anyone else getting hurt.

quote:

Sure, your loved one is gone, so you can't save them. But killers usually aren't content with just one victim, nor are theives, nor is nearly anyone else who turns to crime.


People turn to crime for THOUSANDS of different reasons. Let's stick to the murderer right now; I don't think we can extrapolate one case into another as easily as you're trying to, here.

quote:

Don't lock up a murderer? His next victim is a life you could have saved.


Ok, fine, but when you (earlier in thread) complain about jail being "too easy" on them, it's easy to assume that you aren't just talking about locking them up. And why do you keep assuming that I'm not talking about locking someone up?

Look, we both know that shoving someone in a box for 10 - 25 years does nothing to fix them - especially when you put them in with other people who will teach them how to be more of a problem when they get out. So how about we start talking about solutions instead of yelling at each other that what we THINK the other person is talking about is stupid?

quote:

Don't lock up a theif? The next person who comes home to an empty house might not have, if you'd only acted.


Right. But when someone steals because they have no other options? Maybe part of what we should be doing - while we keep them locked up, mind - is giving them more options. You know?

quote:

How is it you are not understanding this?


What I'm not understanding is how what you're talking about has anything to do with what I'm talking about, at this point.

quote:

You say you act to make things better. In the scenario I posted, the difference between you and me is you are thinking short-term. For your loved one only. I'm thinking of everyone. Everyone, that is, except for the murderer who in my opinion forfeited his right to live the moment her murdered my loved one.


*ahem*

BWAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Right then.



quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
Which is yet another reason why our justice system is fucked. We need to fix these people, not pen them up where they learn how to be worse thugs from each other. And the ones that can't be fixed, we need to put down, as gently and humanely as we can.


How do you fix someone who is beyond repair?


YOU DON'T. Have you not been reading the *pauses, counts* FOUR times I've said "put them down if they can't be fixed?" Are you just looking for a fight? Please, let's have an actual conversation here, okay? You're actually starting to frustrate me.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
I'd rather we not have that humor at other peoples' expenses. The world is fucked and we shouldn't be trying to make it worse than it already is.


Are you serious? Most of humor is at someone else's expense. Take any comedic movie out now....most of the situations are us laughing at the plight of some hapless on-screen nitwit who has ridiculously bad luck in life. Look at Eddie Murphy, Richard Pryor. Any great "comedian." They make a living poking fun a someone else'se appearance, stupidity, lack of common sense, etc. That's the basis for comedy.

Hell, look at the THREE STOOGES. Three guys beating the tar out of each other and acting like idiots. And we laugh. We laugh at their 'expense.' To me, laughing at unintended comedy is the same as laughing at intended comedy.


I know, and I typically don't find very much of it funny. EDIT: er, addendum - I should say, I only find it funny when it's directed at people in an effort to get them to change. Just laughing out of spite I find horrific.

< Message edited by Ialdabaoth -- 7/11/2009 11:42:08 PM >

(in reply to Loki45)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/12/2009 12:08:45 AM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Well it isn't. If you'd have ever read a little on corrections, you'd understand that. Seperating a dangerous person from society is not the same as punishing them. It's completely spelled out in inmate maintenance manuals in almost every prison. We used to punish inmates. We used to whip them leather straps when the didn't comply. In my own state, we has something called the "Tucker telephone." It was an old wind up phone with a car battery attached. It was hooked to the inmates big toe and genitals. Try to take a guess how that felt. We used to also have a "trusty system" here. The guards were the inmates. Convicted killers carried guns and kept the inmates in line. That occurred all the way up to 1970. Arkansas' penal system finally got ruled a unconstitutional system. We were the first state that ever happened to. The Feds came in and took over for 20 years.

Seperation is much, much different from punishment. If you don't understand that, I can't explain it to you further.


Really? Let's ask them if they feel being 'separated' from their loved ones is punishment or not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Do you know what wage garnishments are? Ever heard of it? We have ways of making them pay this back. You can go after people's bank accounts, you can go after their tax returns, their assets, etc, etc. Trust me, I know. I have been the plaintiff in a civil suit. You can get money from people when you want to, even if they try to hide it. It's even easier with a criminal. They have to work on probation, they have to report their income. So you take their money. If they fail to comply, you put them in a community work program, where they make barely nothing, and they live in the county jail or home confinement. Trust me, that sucks. I've seen it used effectively.


Why do criminals have to work on probation? What happens if they don't? According to you, nothing should. So what's their motivation?


_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/12/2009 12:17:30 AM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
What part of "we need to fix them" didn't you read? Of course you keep them restricted while you're repairing them, for the same reason you shut down malfunctioning equipment before going in to fix it - you don't want anyone else getting hurt.


What part of some people can't be or don't want to be fixed didn't *you* read?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
Look, we both know that shoving someone in a box for 10 - 25 years does nothing to fix them - especially when you put them in with other people who will teach them how to be more of a problem when they get out. So how about we start talking about solutions instead of yelling at each other that what we THINK the other person is talking about is stupid?


Because, while we agree that shoving them in a box doesn't fix them, your position is you want to fix them. Mine is to let them stay in the box (or in the case of more serious crimes, be given a nice wooden box, about 6 feet under).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
Right. But when someone steals because they have no other options? Maybe part of what we should be doing - while we keep them locked up, mind - is giving them more options. You know?


Sounds kinda like rewarding failure to me. "Oh you couldn't make a living without turning to crime? I'm so sorry, here's some free college and all the amenities one gets in a motel. Hopefully when you get out, you can try a little harder. Your victims? Oh don't worry about them...you just robbed them of their sense of security for the rest of their lives, they'll get over it. But how are *you* feeling today?"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
*ahem*

BWAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Right then.


Geee, that's mature.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
YOU DON'T. Have you not been reading the *pauses, counts* FOUR times I've said "put them down if they can't be fixed?" Are you just looking for a fight? Please, let's have an actual conversation here, okay? You're actually starting to frustrate me.


You ask me questions like this and you have, at least an equal ammount of times ignored the fact that some can't or DON'T WANT to be 'fixed.' Personally, I'm all for attempting to fix the problems before they become problems. But a murderer has forfeited that right. A murderer has taken a life and now owes a debt that in my thinking can only be paid one way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
I know, and I typically don't find very much of it funny. EDIT: er, addendum - I should say, I only find it funny when it's directed at people in an effort to get them to change. Just laughing out of spite I find horrific.


And how do you know that laughing at an idiot who gets himself tased doesn't motivate them to change? And really, that's kind of a cop out. So it's okay to make fun of people....as long as you're trying to get them to change? Seriously? That's what you come back with?





_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/12/2009 12:21:24 AM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline 		Wanna know why you're getting frustrated? Because it's clear we aren't going to agree, and you haven't realized it yet.

You from the start of this thread, there have been those (like me) who are fine 'helping' people fix their lives when they need the help and when they do *NOT* turn to crime as a crutch. It happens all the time. Somone is born into a crap life and pulls and scrapes themselves together and makes something of themselves.

Then there are those who take the easy way out, using their 'crap life' as a crutch and an excuse for why they couldn't stay on the straight and narrow.

I'm FINE with helping those who help themselves the RIGHT way. You're focusing on helping them after they've shown they prefer crime. And it is my continued contention that once a murderer becomes a murderer, there is no fixing them. There is only their removal from society or putting them down that will make things 'right.'

The last line/question in the OP is this:

"Should the victim understand that the criminal is not responsible, and rather feel sympathy than a need for vengeance or recompense? Is that even possible?"

And my answer is no. The victim is not responsible for what has happened to them and should not be concerned with how the criminal came to be. The suggestion that the criminal is not responsible is ludicrous at best. We have all choice to make in life. The criminals have made theirs. If we can prevent a criminal from becoming one, grand. But we cannot turn back the clock and unmake an already-made criminal. It just doesn't work.


< Message edited by Loki45 -- 7/12/2009 12:24:17 AM >

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/12/2009 12:29:33 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

Really? Let's ask them if they feel being 'separated' from their loved ones is punishment or not.


Yeah, they do feel punished. You gave me a lot of shit about my friend that's incarcerated. She has 3 kids. She loves them to death, and they are good kids. She's done a good job raising them. She fucked up, because she got laid off and ran out of money. You know what, she hasn't made ONE excuse for it. She is doing everything they tell her to do. She is working her program. She is a model inmate. Why do you have such a problem with offenders being offered better ways to deal with the free world?

By the way, you didn't address any of what I wrote. I am attempting to forget our past conversations and engage you in an intelligent debate. You seem to be determined to no listening. You are not offering any intelligent rebute. You're just making snarky, sarcastic remarks.

quote:


Why do criminals have to work on probation? What happens if they don't? According to you, nothing should. So what's their motivation?


Why? Because it's a required part of the probationary period. If they don't comply, there are several options for dealing with it. The costliest option is incarceration. It costs more to incarcerate someone, than it does to put them in alternative community programs. Community service for non-violent violators at first would be my call. It saves communities money, and it saves the state money for incarceration costs. It helps the offender by making them be responsible. If the offender is a drug addict, I think they should be adjudicated towards a long term rehab. This costs less than prison. By the way, all of what I mentioned have lower rates of recidivism than inmates coming out of prison. It's a fact.

(in reply to Loki45)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/12/2009 12:43:36 AM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Yeah, they do feel punished.


Why do they feel punished if separation isn't a punishment?

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Why do you have such a problem with offenders being offered better ways to deal with the free world?


Because as I already said, it sounds to me like rewarding failure. I said I'm "all for" helping those who are helping themselves the RIGHT way. But why help those who already decided to say "fuck you" to the rules that society has set forth?

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Why? Because it's a required part of the probationary period. If they don't comply, there are several options for dealing with it. The costliest option is incarceration. It costs more to incarcerate someone, than it does to put them in alternative community programs. Community service for non-violent violators at first would be my call.


Oh I'm sure the victims would feel "very" paid-back when the person gets community service. So....what you're saying is that keeping them out of jail lets them make restitution, but if they choose not to, they get a free pass to fuck their victim over again? "Oh, I don't want to pay the restitution, just give me the community service. At least that way the victim never gets his money."

By the way, I've had friends who've done community service and it was a fucking joke. "What's that you say? I don't go to prison....I don't have to repay what I took....and all I have to do is pick up some trash off the ground? Sweet!" In the military, we had "trash detail" as a rotating detail. It wasn't hard, it was a free day off from our usual duties. And this is supposed to be some sort of deterrent? Yeah right.


_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/12/2009 1:00:12 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

Why do they feel punished if separation isn't a punishment?


Loki, I am not a guest on Bill O'Reilly. If you're not going to address the entirety of my response, than you apparenly have no interest in a genuine debate.

quote:

Because as I already said, it sounds to me like rewarding failure. I said I'm "all for" helping those who are helping themselves the RIGHT way. But why help those who already decided to say "fuck you" to the rules that society has set forth?


Who are these people saying, "fuck you" to society? You've never actually talked to a prisoner in a prison before have you? Take a moment and try to put yourself in some of these people's shoes. It's called empathy; it's the mark of a real man. Compassion is not a weakness.

quote:

Oh I'm sure the victims would feel "very" paid-back when the person gets community service. So....what you're saying is that keeping them out of jail lets them make restitution, but if they choose not to, they get a free pass to fuck their victim over again? "Oh, I don't want to pay the restitution, just give me the community service. At least that way the victim never gets his money."


Again, you failed to read the entire post. You only address what you think proves your point. I specifically mentioned wage garnishment. An offender has to have some sort of income to make a living. A PO is perfectly able to monitor that. The community service is the way we get them to pay back their debt to the state for probation fees, etc. Try to keep up, and stop trying to omit segments of my posts to make your point. Address them in their entirety.

quote:

By the way, I've had friends who've done community service and it was a fucking joke. "What's that you say? I don't go to prison....I don't have to repay what I took....and all I have to do is pick up some trash off the ground? Sweet!" In the military, we had "trash detail" as a rotating detail. It wasn't hard, it was a free day off from our usual duties. And this is supposed to be some sort of deterrent? Yeah right.


So I guess your friends should be doing life terms according to your philosophy? You seem to believe that no one can be rehabilitated. Everyone should be punished. Anyone that has ever done anything bad is worthy of instant punishment, right? That's the point you keep making.

(in reply to Loki45)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/12/2009 1:07:25 AM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Loki, I am not a guest on Bill O'Reilly. If you're not going to address the entirety of my response, than you apparenly have no interest in a genuine debate.


I'm simply trying to get you to clarify. You said separation isn't punishment, then you stated that the ones you talked to felt that it was. Why the contradiction?

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Who are these people saying, "fuck you" to society? You've never actually talked to a prisoner in a prison before have you? Take a moment and try to put yourself in some of these people's shoes. It's called empathy; it's the mark of a real man. Compassion is not a weakness.


Anyone who murders or rapes says fuck you to society. Not a complete list, of course, just the two I picked out.

And I have plenty of compassion and empathy -- for the victim.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Again, you failed to read the entire post. You only address what you think proves your point. I specifically mentioned wage garnishment. An offender has to have some sort of income to make a living. A PO is perfectly able to monitor that. The community service is the way we get them to pay back their debt to the state for probation fees, etc. Try to keep up, and stop trying to omit segments of my posts to make your point. Address them in their entirety.


I don't need to edit your posts to make my point. You're doing it for me. For example, this "entire paragraph" of yours addresses cost to the state. If I'm the victim, *I* want *my* costs repaid. If a person is given community service, that is like the state saying to me "We'll make sure he pays us back, you're shit out of luck." So not only does the man who ripped me off.....emptied my home *not* going to jail for it....but I get jack shit for my trouble. "Sorry dude, suck it up and deal." That's weak.


_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/12/2009 1:08:43 AM   
HatesParisHilton


Posts: 3513
Joined: 12/27/2006
Status: offline 		Bill O'Reilly would have an active public profile like yourself, at least, slaveboyforyou

if you "debate" with someone who doesn't have a profile in equal public fashion to yourself, you can't be surprised when they sideswipe you (rather than answering) like a teen on a highway overpass in the early 1980's in Phoenix Arizona throwing oranges at cars on the freeway, knowing full well the drivers of the cars cannot even stop to express their offense.

There's no point in even asking someone without the honesty of having a profile (as you do) to be in any way fair on the debate floor (as you are being and asking others to be).

_____________________________

I am (now) "Hiltie", hear me ROARRRRR! And have a cuffy cake, they're nice.

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/12/2009 1:17:16 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

I'm simply trying to get you to clarify. You said separation isn't punishment, then you stated that the ones you talked to felt that it was. Why the contradiction?


No you're not. You are deliberately ignored the entirety of my post to make your point. I don't play that game.

quote:

Anyone who murders or rapes says fuck you to society. Not a complete list, of course, just the two I picked out.

And I have plenty of compassion and empathy -- for the victim.


There you go again, you're throwing the murder and rapist card up. The offenders you're mentioning make up a miniscule part of our penal population. Again, I have never advocated giving those types of offenders a break. I want them incarcerated and controlled. Control is up to the prison system, and they will be the first to tell you that your methods don't work. When we have life imprisonment, you have to have incentives to encourage good behavior.

quote:

I don't need to edit your posts to make my point. You're doing it for me. For example, this "entire paragraph" of yours addresses cost to the state. If I'm the victim, *I* want *my* costs repaid. If a person is given community service, that is like the state saying to me "We'll make sure he pays us back, you're shit out of luck." So not only does the man who ripped me off.....emptied my home *not* going to jail for it....but I get jack shit for my trouble. "Sorry dude, suck it up and deal." That's weak.


You want to be compensated? Cool. Well you can't draw blood from a turnip (as the cliche goes). You won't get a damn dime from someone not working, and incarcerated. Yeah he/she ripped you off. Does it really make a fuck of a difference that they are in the joint to you? They aren't repaying you. Now, if they are out in the world.....they have the ability to do that.

(in reply to Loki45)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/12/2009 1:25:01 AM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
You want to be compensated? Cool. Well you can't draw blood from a turnip (as the cliche goes). You won't get a damn dime from someone not working, and incarcerated. Yeah he/she ripped you off. Does it really make a fuck of a difference that they are in the joint to you? They aren't repaying you. Now, if they are out in the world.....they have the ability to do that.


I'm not being facetious here:

maybe for Loki45, them being miserable is compensation. It's like having a non-consentual bottom that you can go all INSEX with, and savor the taste of their tears.

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/12/2009 1:30:43 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

Bill O'Reilly would have an active public profile like yourself, at least, slaveboyforyou

if you "debate" with someone who doesn't have a profile in equal public fashion to yourself, you can't be surprised when they sideswipe you (rather than answering) like a teen on a highway overpass in the early 1980's in Phoenix Arizona throwing oranges at cars on the freeway, knowing full well the drivers of the cars cannot even stop to express their offense.

There's no point in even asking someone without the honesty of having a profile (as you do) to be in any way fair on the debate floor (as you are being and asking others to be).


I know HatesParis. It's mildly amusing though.

(in reply to HatesParisHilton)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/12/2009 1:34:07 AM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HatesParisHilton
Bill O'Reilly would have an active public profile like yourself, at least, slaveboyforyou

if you "debate" with someone who doesn't have a profile in equal public fashion to yourself, you can't be surprised when they sideswipe you (rather than answering) like a teen on a highway overpass in the early 1980's in Phoenix Arizona throwing oranges at cars on the freeway, knowing full well the drivers of the cars cannot even stop to express their offense.

There's no point in even asking someone without the honesty of having a profile (as you do) to be in any way fair on the debate floor (as you are being and asking others to be).


LoL

So I have to have a profile on a BDSM personals site in order to post in the forums? That's funny. There are literally THOUSANDS of forum sites that do not have profiles attached to them. What about them?

I'm not seeking someone for which I would need a profile. Thus, I do not have a profile. Deal with it. Or...don't. But don't whine about it because that's just silly.


_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to HatesParisHilton)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/12/2009 1:35:17 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

I'm not being facetious here:

maybe for Loki45, them being miserable is compensation. It's like having a non-consentual bottom that you can go all INSEX with, and savor the taste of their tears.


I'm sure he thinks that, Ialdabaoth. Loki seems to take glee in the suffering of others. He likes thinking of people being locked up in jail. I've visited those prisons, and they are not nice places to be. The people that go in there learn nothing but how to be better criminals. Loki doesn't seem to understand the facts. Rehab and vocational programs equal less guys/gals from coming back. It's proven. But, he doesn't want to listen.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/12/2009 1:37:35 AM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
No you're not. You are deliberately ignored the entirety of my post to make your point. I don't play that game.


Glad to hear it. But it's not a game. There's no rule that says I have to address every single sentence you post. Thus, I don't. You stated very clearly that separation from society is not a punishment and then you said those who are separated do indeed feel that it is. That is the contradiction I wanted to address and that is what I quoted. I yet to receive a satisfactory answer, though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
You want to be compensated? Cool. Well you can't draw blood from a turnip (as the cliche goes). You won't get a damn dime from someone not working, and incarcerated. Yeah he/she ripped you off. Does it really make a fuck of a difference that they are in the joint to you? They aren't repaying you. Now, if they are out in the world.....they have the ability to do that.


You won't get a damned dime from someone who refuses to make restitution and thus is given 'community service,' either. At least as they sit in prison, you will know they are paying for their crime. You will know they are learning they can't rip people off and walk free afterward.


_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/12/2009 1:41:36 AM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

I'm not being facetious here:

maybe for Loki45, them being miserable is compensation. It's like having a non-consentual bottom that you can go all INSEX with, and savor the taste of their tears.


I'm sure he thinks that, Ialdabaoth. Loki seems to take glee in the suffering of others. He likes thinking of people being locked up in jail. I've visited those prisons, and they are not nice places to be. The people that go in there learn nothing but how to be better criminals. Loki doesn't seem to understand the facts. Rehab and vocational programs equal less guys/gals from coming back. It's proven. But, he doesn't want to listen.


Actually, as I said in my last reply, it's about knowing the person is paying (in some way, if not monetarily) for their crime. Why should someone who robbed someone's home be off with 'community service' while that person has to work hard (all over again) to replace what was lost? What about what can't be replaced? Those sentimental items that can never be re-acquired? What about their sense of security? That doesn't return as easily as a plasma TV, after all.

Prisons are not *supposed* to be 'nice places to be.' They are where we put people who cannot live and work according to society's rules.


_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/12/2009 1:45:54 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Loki, I am not going to continue this nonsense with you. You have never studied any of this, and that's quite obvious. I told you what my background was in this field, you don't have one. Our criminal justice system is very complicated. You don't make any arguments about repairing it or strengthening it. Either you like the status quo, or you like making arguments that have no end. Either way, you are not making any real argument. You're just trying to irritate folks. You don't care about the subject of the argument, you just like arguing. Well, that's fun for awhile. But some of us have better things to do. If you have a mind that is made up, than you don't have an open mind. You have a closed mind. I hope that works well for you. In the meanwhile, I have better things to do.

(in reply to Loki45)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/13/2009 3:16:23 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

The OP was about whether or not criminals should be held responsible for their actions or given the equivelent of a 'free pass' because of their hard upbringing. The answer, in my opinion is no.



Actually the "hard upbringing" part is something that has crept in from a misunderstanding of the OP.

The research indicates that criminal behaviour can be attributed to subnormal brain development, which then affects the ability to make the "positive choices" which have been mentioned during the discussion.

The research indicates that a "hard upbringing" results in subnormal brain development, making "positive choices" difficult or even impossible to reach due to lack of ability to reason.

In turn this means two things - one that criminals ought not to be regarded with the same standards as those with which those who are normal might regard themselves.

And two, that criminals could be regarded as subhuman and therefore akin to animals incapable of morality in that they are acting on a more instinctual basis bereft of reason.

This gets interesting in that the factors contributory to these subhuman brains and thus reasoning and thus misbehaviour through to felony can be ascertained and therefore the malformed, subhuman part of the population can be identified and anticipated.

This gets even more interesting when it is discovered which part of the population in general form a disproportionate part of the prison population.

Cue ten pages of rowing back and/or unqualified, inexperienced, clueless "man on the street" comments that should be regarded as more valid than the research protocols and results of university professors, because now the OP seems to say something unacceptable, which is widely believed and which yet must never speak its name...........

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Loki45)
Profile   Post #: 160
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