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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/9/2009 11:40:33 AM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45
You're right, I don't care. And if it really is true they make less than they would at McDonald's, then it's true they are too stupid to live and it's even funnier when their actions lead to their demise.


Well, then. I don't know what else to say that could possibly be useful.

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/9/2009 11:49:54 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
Well, then. I don't know what else to say that could possibly be useful.


There really isn't anything you need to say. The OP was about whether or not criminals should be held responsible for their actions or given the equivelent of a 'free pass' because of their hard upbringing. The answer, in my opinion is no.

If someone breaks into my home with the (perceived) intent to harm me or my loved ones, I'm not going to query him about his hard life. I'm going to defend my home without a moment's hesitation. By that same token, if a criminal is arrested, I'm not going to be the one saying he should get a pass because of his past.

That to me is ridiculous. When does it stop? What crimes do we allow them to get away with because of their hard upbringing? What do we tell the victims of those crimes? "Oh it's unfortunate you were targeted, but we're not going to punish the guy who victimized you because he had a hard life and it's not really his fault." My answer to that is a resounding no.


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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/9/2009 12:21:08 PM   
nelly33


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Status: offline 		I personally wasn't suggesting "letting people get away" with anything.  I just think that it is common sense to realize that people who were brought up in a certain environment naturally act differently.  And Loki, the economy is terrible.  Do you think the drug dealers making less than minimum wage do it because they want to hurt other people, and that's like a job benefit?  Maybe they just weren't blessed with the intellect and resourcefulness that you want them to have.
edit:  also, i don't advocate anybody getting a pass.  My main point is that the way people grow up in inner cities should be addressed, as arresting people is only a short term game.  The endgame is going to be making children's environments better places to live, and getting away from the negative behavior, such as drug dealing, or other illegal activity.


< Message edited by nelly33 -- 7/9/2009 12:23:45 PM >

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/9/2009 12:28:53 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33
I personally wasn't suggesting "letting people get away" with anything.  I just think that it is common sense to realize that people who were brought up in a certain environment naturally act differently.  And Loki, the economy is terrible.  Do you think the drug dealers making less than minimum wage do it because they want to hurt other people, and that's like a job benefit?  Maybe they just weren't blessed with the intellect and resourcefulness that you want them to have.
edit:  also, i don't advocate anybody getting a pass.  My main point is that the way people grow up in inner cities should be addressed, as arresting people is only a short term game.  The endgame is going to be making children's environments better places to live, and getting away from the negative behavior, such as drug dealing, or other illegal activity.


That's why I'm a middle-ground voter. On the one hand, I believe there *should* be programs in place to help the ones who choose to help themselves. But on the other, I am all for locking up the ones who do not.


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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/9/2009 12:36:34 PM   
nelly33


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Status: offline 		ok, but again, sometimes kids are taught one way of thinking at a very young age, and with nobody around to contradict the negative thinking, it gets ingrained.  please do not mininterrperate me by thinking I advocate leaving criminals on the streets.  Rehabilitation can be well and good, but to reverse the negative thinking early, well that could save children from going down a wrong path in the first place, and is the best option, in my opinion

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/9/2009 12:39:05 PM   
sirsholly


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quote:

My main point is that the way people grow up in inner cities should be addressed,
for me it all boils down to one simple question: Do they know right from wrong?

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/9/2009 12:45:37 PM   
nelly33


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Status: offline 		I agree that is the main question.  My point from earlier though, is that some are brought up with a misguided sense of right and wrong.  Therefore, although we know stealing, drug dealing, etc is bad, some in their community may have passed on to them that it is just a way of life.  That is why personally I believe that educating the children before their minds are warped is key.  Like it is said, kids are very impressionable... and not always for the better.

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/9/2009 3:46:26 PM   
sirsholly


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quote:

My point from earlier though, is that some are brought up with a misguided sense of right and wrong. Therefore, although we know stealing, drug dealing, etc is bad, some in their community may have passed on to them that it is just a way of life.


Nelly...if someone with the misguided sense of right and wrong is standing on the corner, dealing drugs, is he going to do it in front of a passing police car? Of course not...because he knows it is wrong.


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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/9/2009 4:21:33 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
Well, then. I don't know what else to say that could possibly be useful.


There really isn't anything you need to say. The OP was about whether or not criminals should be held responsible for their actions or given the equivelent of a 'free pass' because of their hard upbringing. The answer, in my opinion is no.

If someone breaks into my home with the (perceived) intent to harm me or my loved ones, I'm not going to query him about his hard life. I'm going to defend my home without a moment's hesitation. By that same token, if a criminal is arrested, I'm not going to be the one saying he should get a pass because of his past.

That to me is ridiculous. When does it stop? What crimes do we allow them to get away with because of their hard upbringing? What do we tell the victims of those crimes? "Oh it's unfortunate you were targeted, but we're not going to punish the guy who victimized you because he had a hard life and it's not really his fault." My answer to that is a resounding no.



To me, it's about making sure crimes don't happen. Punishment is irrelevant, except as a rehabilitative or preventative measure. And there's plenty of literature that indicates that it's not very good as either. Studies like this aren't about finding excuses to give people a "free pass" - they're about trying to understand why crime happens in the first place, so we can make it not happen.

Some people want more punishment. Me? I want less crime.

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/9/2009 6:36:59 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

To me, it's about making sure crimes don't happen. Punishment is irrelevant, except as a rehabilitative or preventative measure. And there's plenty of literature that indicates that it's not very good as either. Studies like this aren't about finding excuses to give people a "free pass" - they're about trying to understand why crime happens in the first place, so we can make it not happen.

Some people want more punishment. Me? I want less crime.



Yep, same here. Punishment is a concept that belongs in the Middle Ages. Retribution is a counter-productive way to lower crime rates. It's been consistently proven that incarceration with intensive rehabilitation lowers recidivism. Some people call these places "country clubs," I call it intelligent criminal justice. In my state, the lock up prisons that are mainly seperation units for problem inmates have 50-65% recidivism rates. The minimum security places with rehabilitation, vocational programs, and the ability to earn privileges have recidivism rates in the teens. Incidentely, minimum security prisons are much, much cheaper to run and they are safer.

Now I understand, we have violent individuals that are dangerous and/or escape risks. They need to be locked up. But they are a small percentage of the overall inmate population. People who scream for punishment are slaves to their emotions, they don't think ahead or think rationally. Prisons should primarily be for rehabiliation and secondarily for the purpose of seperation from society.

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/9/2009 7:07:50 PM   
nelly33


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Status: offline 		I disagree here... knowing you will be arrested for something and knowing something is morally wrong is totally different in my mind.  

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/9/2009 7:08:58 PM   
nelly33


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


To me, it's about making sure crimes don't happen. Punishment is irrelevant, except as a rehabilitative or preventative measure. And there's plenty of literature that indicates that it's not very good as either. Studies like this aren't about finding excuses to give people a "free pass" - they're about trying to understand why crime happens in the first place, so we can make it not happen.

Some people want more punishment. Me? I want less crime.


this.

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/9/2009 7:15:45 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

I disagree here... knowing you will be arrested for something and knowing something is morally wrong is totally different in my mind.  


Not really. If you know you will be arrested for doing something it should register that someone, somewhere thinks it's wrong. It doesn't matter what your upbringing is, if you think it's an activity for which you will be arrested, then you either don't do it, or you do it with the knowledge that it's illegal.


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'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/9/2009 7:18:21 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


To me, it's about making sure crimes don't happen. Punishment is irrelevant, except as a rehabilitative or preventative measure. And there's plenty of literature that indicates that it's not very good as either. Studies like this aren't about finding excuses to give people a "free pass" - they're about trying to understand why crime happens in the first place, so we can make it not happen.

Some people want more punishment. Me? I want less crime.

this.


I want less people turning to crime as well. But at the same time, I want HARSH punishments for those who choose to do so despite all the help available for them to choose better paths.

You see, when you're raising a young one, you can only do so much to teach them right from wrong, show them why they should do right and help them make the right choice. When they choose to do wrong anyway, you have to be ready to show them the penalty for their actions and make it a REAL penalty. Otherwise, what you're teaching them is that you "should" do right, but if you don't, we're not really going to do anything to you.


_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/9/2009 9:19:14 PM   
nelly33


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

I disagree here... knowing you will be arrested for something and knowing something is morally wrong is totally different in my mind.  


Not really. If you know you will be arrested for doing something it should register that someone, somewhere thinks it's wrong. It doesn't matter what your upbringing is, if you think it's an activity for which you will be arrested, then you either don't do it, or you do it with the knowledge that it's illegal.



right, I agree with you hear... but what I am saying is that legality does not always equate with morality... this much I think can be accepted by everyone... or else you can let me know why you think not

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/9/2009 9:41:56 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33
right, I agree with you hear... but what I am saying is that legality does not always equate with morality... this much I think can be accepted by everyone... or else you can let me know why you think not


The breakdown we are having here is not the difference between legality and morality. It's which one applies in the case we're discussing. The law says drug dealing is illegal. It doesn't matter if the dealer thinks it's moral or not. People that came long before him decided it was to be illegal. Therefore, it is illegal. You could apply the morality bit to anything as an excuse, but in the end, that's all it is.

I recall an episode of a show called Bones where the main character, a genius, was trying to get her father off a murder charge by suggesting  in court that she was the killer (classic misdirection). Anyway, they get the shrink of the team on the stand and ask him about her intellect and morality. He states that with her I.Q., she could rationalize that someone needed to die, and her mind, it would be perfectly morally justifiable to kill them. And that she would do so without guilt or remorse, because to her it was just. However, as we all know, murder is illegal. But to her, the action would be moral and just.

The point I'm using that fictional show to illustrate, is that personal morals only really come into play when they prevent you from doing something you find moraly wrong, yet which is legal. Take pornography. Many forms of porn are legal. Yet for some, it's immoral. Thus, they don't engage in it in any fashion. However, just because to a dealer, it may be 'morally right' to deal drugs, that doesn't mean that it is right for them to do so. As I said, people long ago decided they wanted such things illegal, so they are.

Will drug laws change? Could they change? Perhaps. I've already said I'd love it if they did, because then drug dealers would have to find a real job and it may help to deter crime overall. That's purely speculation, however. The fact is, currently, dealing drugs is a crime. It matters not if someone finds it 'ok' to deal drugs, the law is not on their side.

< Message edited by Loki45 -- 7/9/2009 9:42:17 PM >

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/10/2009 4:10:53 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

He states that with her I.Q., she could rationalize that someone needed to die, and her mind, it would be perfectly morally justifiable to kill them. And that she would do so without guilt or remorse, because to her it was just. However, as we all know, murder is illegal. But to her, the action would be moral and just.
you are describing serious traits of a psychopath...

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/10/2009 8:53:03 AM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


To me, it's about making sure crimes don't happen. Punishment is irrelevant, except as a rehabilitative or preventative measure. And there's plenty of literature that indicates that it's not very good as either. Studies like this aren't about finding excuses to give people a "free pass" - they're about trying to understand why crime happens in the first place, so we can make it not happen.

Some people want more punishment. Me? I want less crime.

this.


I want less people turning to crime as well. But at the same time, I want HARSH punishments for those who choose to do so despite all the help available for them to choose better paths.


Why?

quote:

You see, when you're raising a young one, you can only do so much to teach them right from wrong, show them why they should do right and help them make the right choice. When they choose to do wrong anyway, you have to be ready to show them the penalty for their actions and make it a REAL penalty.


Or you could figure out what's motivating them to "choose" wrong anyways, and see what you can do about that. The harsh authoritarian-parent trick never worked with most of my friends, and the ones it did work on came out of childhood... well, "broken" is the best word I can give for it, with the same connotation as when we use the word to describe horses.

quote:

Otherwise, what you're teaching them is that you "should" do right, but if you don't, we're not really going to do anything to you.


Personally, I'd prefer for people to understand what they're doing to themselves. Most of the time, "wrong" is just plain stupid. It's like the drug dealer thing - these kids could do better working at McDonald's, but there's social structures in place that keep them from seeing it that way. Now, if we're willing to accept that these people are already too far gone, then I'm actually okay - on that basis - with some sort of pogrom/euthanasia against them. Hell, at least then we'd be forced to confront our decisions honestly. But I'm not okay with our current mode of "punishment", because that's like rubbing salmonella-and-botfly-infested shit into a wound.





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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/10/2009 9:06:37 AM   
sirsholly


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From: Quietville
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quote:


You see, when you're raising a young one, you can only do so much to teach them right from wrong, show them why they should do right and help them make the right choice. When they choose to do wrong anyway, you have to be ready to show them the penalty for their actions and make it a REAL penalty.



quote:


Or you could figure out what's motivating them to "choose" wrong anyways, and see what you can do about that. The harsh authoritarian-parent trick never worked with most of my friends, and the ones it did work on came out of childhood... well, "broken" is the best word I can give for it, with the same connotation as when we use the word to describe horses.


oh boy do i disagree. Your offspring screws up, so as the parent you are going to sit there and analyze their behavior? That is fine, and a good move, but there must also be consequences to the behavior as well.


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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/10/2009 12:06:50 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
quote:


Or you could figure out what's motivating them to "choose" wrong anyways, and see what you can do about that. The harsh authoritarian-parent trick never worked with most of my friends, and the ones it did work on came out of childhood... well, "broken" is the best word I can give for it, with the same connotation as when we use the word to describe horses.

oh boy do i disagree. Your offspring screws up, so as the parent you are going to sit there and analyze their behavior? That is fine, and a good move, but there must also be consequences to the behavior as well.


Exactly.


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