RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (Full Version)

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willbeurdaddy -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/8/2009 3:46:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Ive asked this on other threads and not had a reply, so here is another try.

To those of you critical of the bailouts. Would you still feel the same way if the government had let everything collapse, including your job, bank, insurance company ect ect ?

The reason I ask is this would have been the most likely outcome, any talk that things would have sorted themselves out is nonsense, we would have had a world wide meltdown.


No, that isnt the most likely outcome and they would have sorted themselves out. Painfully? yes But not as painfully as it will be, as we learned from the deepening and lenthening of the Great Depression as a result of the same types or policies.




Politesub53 -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/8/2009 3:49:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Polite.............

I don't think the money is helping, so me........theres more but I'm tired.


I agree its not being spent in the best way, maybe thats down to no one really having a clue exactly what needs to be done. I do know several major banks in the UK and the US were on the point of collapse though. At least the bailout prevented that, and the chaos that would have followed.




Politesub53 -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/8/2009 3:52:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

No, that isnt the most likely outcome and they would have sorted themselves out. Painfully? yes But not as painfully as it will be, as we learned from the deepening and lenthening of the Great Depression as a result of the same types or policies.


So please explain how the banks that were desperate for that initial input would have stayed afloat. Everything I have read on the subject indicates many didnt have enough reserves to continue trading.




Sanity -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/8/2009 3:59:57 PM)

I'd have to be able to see whatever you are using for a source on that before I'll buy into believeing it because if memory serves me right those numbers are cooked somehow to come up with the results you're claiming here. And regardless, the Federal Government is overstepping its bouinds in a major way when we're all collectively in debt up to our grandchildren's eyeballs. 

Politicians are essentially borrowing money in order to buy people's votes, and this kind of thing may work for a while but its eventually going to collapse.


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Sanity, here' one place where that all falls down..........california, new york and states like that are net losers in fed funds recieved back from their fed taxes, and most smaller states are net gainers.....................now after all these years of boom time where they provided for other states you are going to throw them under the bus when they have this long republican (and ostensibly conservative) history back to nixon, ragen and whatnot as governors?

You're talking like a WallStreet Exec........uh, I just saw today's report......... this is costing us...lose it, I'd rather sell toilet paper to dogs than try to profit off this shit................................the country would unravel quickly,dude.




DomKen -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/8/2009 4:06:11 PM)

This should be funny. Let every major US bank fail which would have certainly brought FDIC down too. So the people with assets in Chase, WaMU, Wakovia, Citi and BofA simply lose 60 to 70% of their savings, the direct deposit system is thrown into turmoil disrupting cash flows for millions of people. I wonder how many people would have died in the bank runs? hundreds or thousands?

No more cash flow loans for small and mid size businesses wiping most of them out. The Dow drops to probably 2000 or so wiping out the retirements of most of the baby boomers. Putting an enormous unsustainable burden on younger workers for the next 20 or 30 years.

The second great depression drags on for decades unless some nation succumbs to a demagogue and brings about a new world war.




rulemylife -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/8/2009 4:19:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


No, that isnt the most likely outcome and they would have sorted themselves out. Painfully? yes But not as painfully as it will be, as we learned from the deepening and lenthening of the Great Depression as a result of the same types or policies.


Is that what we learned?

Oh wait, I forgot to review my conservative revisionists handbook this morning, and damned if it's not right there in bold print.




Sanity -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/8/2009 4:22:54 PM)


The way things are being handled, the dollar on its way to becoming worth less than toilet paper. When the United States itself collapses, who is going to bail out the treasury?

The stimulus money isn't all going towards banks anyway, that's a false premise. A lot of it is just waste and pork, and it HAD to be passed before anyone could even read it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This should be funny. Let every major US bank fail which would have certainly brought FDIC down too. So the people with assets in Chase, WaMU, Wakovia, Citi and BofA simply lose 60 to 70% of their savings, the direct deposit system is thrown into turmoil disrupting cash flows for millions of people. I wonder how many people would have died in the bank runs? hundreds or thousands?

No more cash flow loans for small and mid size businesses wiping most of them out. The Dow drops to probably 2000 or so wiping out the retirements of most of the baby boomers. Putting an enormous unsustainable burden on younger workers for the next 20 or 30 years.

The second great depression drags on for decades unless some nation succumbs to a demagogue and brings about a new world war.




MarsBonfire -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/8/2009 4:39:18 PM)

Well, thank God we got Obama. If McCain had gotten in, we'd all have Phil Gramm at the wheel of the economy, who claimed that we were just in a "mental recession." At least the Dems realize that there IS a problem here, and are doing something to try and correct it. The GOP just wanted to not only stick it's head in the sand, they just wanted another round of tax cuts to the rich while the rest of the US would burn to the ground.





willbeurdaddy -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/8/2009 4:42:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

No, that isnt the most likely outcome and they would have sorted themselves out. Painfully? yes But not as painfully as it will be, as we learned from the deepening and lenthening of the Great Depression as a result of the same types or policies.


So please explain how the banks that were desperate for that initial input would have stayed afloat. Everything I have read on the subject indicates many didnt have enough reserves to continue trading.


Some would have failed and been bought out by the healthier ones instead of by the government.




Marc2b -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/8/2009 9:04:47 PM)

quote:

For the last time Marc.....you quoted and applauded the post in which Treasure advocated eliminating 95% of the Federal Gov.Now you amend that to "trim the federal government down to what the constitution says it should be"
95% Marc...and you applauded this.
5% of our current federal gov. left and you assert,on and with what authority I have no idea,that this is what the constitution says it should be.
This is looking at the world with rose colored glasses....the belief that our Country...a super power with obligations and far flung interests....internationally and domestically could be administered fairly and competently after you and Treasure have taken a hatchet to its bureaucracy.


Okay. Now I get. Yup! I’ve finally figured it out.

You’re a literalist. When Treasure said 95% you took it to mean that she meant a literal 95%! As if, were she given actual power to “eviscerate” the federal government she would not stop until she got to a literal 95%!

“Chief Madam Evicerator, we sent the last of the Department of Education employees packing as per your orders. Are we through slashing away at the government yet?”

“No, we are only at 87%. I want that last 8%! Find me a department of something or other and keep slashing.”


Now it is quite possible that Treasure is a literalist too. Perhaps she really does mean an actual 95%. I don’t know and I won’t presume to speak for her. Still, I have a sneaking suspicion that she is not a literalist. That she was merely saying, in a humorous quip, that she was of the opinion that the federal government needs to be severely curtailed of its’ power over our lives. That is the way I took it and I applauded her to let her know that here was somebody who recognized her sentiment and agreed with it. Like I said, I could be wrong.

Now I have to wonder, what is the source of this literalism on your part? This seeming inability to recognize metaphor by exaggeration. Were you born with it? You’re not a Vulcan, are you? Or is it something you only exercise in relation to those you consider your ideological enemies? If so, do you do this consciously or is it a subconscious thing?

Whatever. If you believe that the present, money sucking, grossly inefficient, federal government which has unconstitutionally usurped many powers it should not have (yeah, yeah, I know, it’s all to promote the general welfare) is better than a small, more efficient, federal government that actually respects the boundaries the Constitution placed upon it – then I continue to maintain that the commonly accepted definition of “wearing rose colored glasses (seeing a good or “rosy” situation where one clearly does not exist) more properly applies to you and not me in this situation.

You can blather on and on all you want about the Founding Fathers wanting a strong government. It is meaningless because – while you are not wrong you are, in fact, only half right. Yes the Founding Fathers wanted a strong national government and yes, they created one. BUT (and pay attention because this is a really big and important but) they also put restrictions on its’ power. They limited its’ scope and power because they understood what you do not. Power corrupts. It is the nature of power to expand itself. This is incompatible with a free society. It’s a crying shame it didn’t work.

Also, pointing out that Thomas Jefferson violated the Constitution is not an argument in support of continued violations of the Constitution. That would be like saying it’s okay to commit murder because some people commit murder.




slvemike4u -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/8/2009 9:12:28 PM)

Wow, all of that because I took her at her word regarding the 95% number...and oh yeah all the deptartments she said she would do away with.Departments by the way which are well within the scope of the Constitution.
But your right from now on when I respond....I will respond to what I imagine they meant to post...rather than,  the much less efective method ,what they actually post.
Thanks great advice.Please keep it coming....




Marc2b -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/8/2009 9:37:34 PM)

quote:

But your right from now on when I respond....I will respond to what I imagine they meant to post...rather than, the much less efective method ,what they actually post.
Thanks great advice.Please keep it coming....


Should I take that literally?

Whatever.

I'm going to go hit the hay.

(for you literalists out there that means I am going to bed, not that I am going to actually hit some hay)




slvemike4u -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/8/2009 9:47:40 PM)

Thank God for that....I grew tired of that argument last nite....as a matter of fact I woke up and sent Treasure an apology for the lousy tone I took with her.Yet here it is tonight and I still seem to be rehashing it.Is this Groundhog Day or what.




Loki45 -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/8/2009 9:53:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Thank God for that....I grew tired of that argument last nite....as a matter of fact I woke up and sent Treasure an apology for the lousy tone I took with her.Yet here it is tonight and I still seem to be rehashing it.Is this Groundhog Day or what.


"Don't drive angry!" -- Bill Murray, Groundhog Day




slvemike4u -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/8/2009 10:11:44 PM)

Whose driving...I'm laying in my bed...oh wait there I go again getting all literal and shit.




Loki45 -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/8/2009 10:20:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Whose driving...I'm laying in my bed...oh wait there I go again getting all literal and shit.


[sm=LMAO.gif]




Politesub53 -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/9/2009 2:47:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

No, that isnt the most likely outcome and they would have sorted themselves out. Painfully? yes But not as painfully as it will be, as we learned from the deepening and lenthening of the Great Depression as a result of the same types or policies.


So please explain how the banks that were desperate for that initial input would have stayed afloat. Everything I have read on the subject indicates many didnt have enough reserves to continue trading.


Some would have failed and been bought out by the healthier ones instead of by the government.


No answer to my original question then ?

As for this assumption, it shows a lack of knowledge of the extent of the problem.




TreasureKY -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/9/2009 6:02:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Now it is quite possible that Treasure is a literalist too. Perhaps she really does mean an actual 95%. I don’t know and I won’t presume to speak for her. Still, I have a sneaking suspicion that she is not a literalist. That she was merely saying, in a humorous quip, that she was of the opinion that the federal government needs to be severely curtailed of its’ power over our lives. That is the way I took it and I applauded her to let her know that here was somebody who recognized her sentiment and agreed with it. Like I said, I could be wrong.


You could be wrong, but you're not.  [;)]

And I agree... I don't think Mike gets hyperbole.  More likely, he's being deliberately obtuse because it's an easy way to accuse someone else of being either a liar or stupid, and still claim to be "right".

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

...as a matter of fact I woke up and sent Treasure an apology for the lousy tone I took with her.


Edited because I was flat out wrong.  I do apologize, Mike... it would appear your message went into my bulk mail and as I have no filters set up, I never check there.  Thank you for your kind words and I will publicly apologize here to you, as well, for my sharp tone.  




blacksword404 -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/9/2009 7:12:25 AM)

Government has a nice little racket going on. They are given a job to do. They fuck the job up. Then come to the people and tell them that they could do a real super job if only they had more money. And so we give it to them. And no they do an even more fucked up job. And we in turn give them a much bigger sum of money. Now repeat.

I watched Bush do this very thing. And it seems Obama is following.

They obviously work the opposite from reality. So all we need to do is cut the shit out of their funding. Now after this they will cry and roll around on the ground until they understand we mean business. Then you tell them that if they don't do the job right we will cut your funding again. And if you still can't do the job we will cut it again. This will properly motivate them.




Marc2b -> RE: Bidden: We 'Misread the Economy' (7/9/2009 11:56:41 AM)

quote:

You could be wrong, but you're not.

And I agree... I don't think Mike gets hyperbole. More likely, he's being deliberately obtuse because it's an easy way to accuse someone else of being either a liar or stupid, and still claim to be "right".


I think you hit the nail on the head.

(translation for slvemike4u: that doesn't mean I think she's actually hit a nail with a hammer; it means I think she has made an accurate assesment)




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