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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 10:27:34 AM   
Venatrix


Posts: 2238
Joined: 11/28/2007
Status: offline 		All right, let's take this from my own experience.  Bear with me here, as I've a point to make.

In 1989, I lived in San Francisco and was here for the major earthquake.  I lived in Miami in 1992, and was there for Hurricane Andrew.  In 1996, I lived in Massachusetts and experienced the worst blizzard they'd had in 48 years.  My mother died at the end March this year.

I would argue that each of these experiences alone is far more traumatic than "Oh, I had a kinky evening and I'm questioning my identity."  Yet, throughout these experiences, I never used them as an excuse to treat people badly, nor to forget my manners.  I might have been a little less than patient with other people's bullshit (not that I'm particularly patient even on a good day), but by and large, I made the best effort I could to cope with adversity with good manners and a sense of humour, and not to take out my stress on other people.

Seriously, several posts on this thread seem to be implying that submissive men are all fucked up, and can't be expected to exhibit basic courtesy to others when they're questioning their orientation.  I've never wanted to be wrong about something so much, because if I'm not, I really do need to hang up my flogger permanently. 

Edited to add:  Never mind that dominants often do a lot of self-questioning when they acknowledge this side of themselves.  It wasn't any different for me, yet I don't recall behaving badly towards any of my subs when those "Are you completely mental?  What do you think you're doing?" thoughts went through my head.

< Message edited by Venatrix -- 7/11/2009 10:30:28 AM >

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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 10:47:09 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		In 1989, I lived in San Francisco and was here for the major earthquake.  I lived in Miami in 1992, and was there for Hurricane Andrew.  In 1996, I lived in Massachusetts and experienced the worst blizzard they'd had in 48 years.  My mother died at the end March this year.
 
I would argue that each of these experiences alone is far more traumatic than "Oh, I had a kinky evening and I'm questioning my identity.
 
In WW2 thousands had their houses bombed in London, but had their nice cups of tea and carried on anyway.  No counselling or therapy back then, as my grandparents were fond of saying.

I don't think it works that way, V.  There is no list of 'objectively more or less traumatic' incidents.  There's no way of asserting that event X will always and for all people be more traumatic than event Y.  But even if it were possible to assert that, the implication is still of no help.  That is, it's never helpful to say "What others went through is worse than what you're going through.  So forget your problems and feel and act normally."

Seriously, several posts on this thread seem to be implying that submissive men are all fucked up, and can't be expected to exhibit basic courtesy to others when they're questioning their orientation. 
 
If they are suggesting that, then I think that they're wrong.  Once again, boorish behaviour is boorish behaviour, and that's that.



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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 10:59:44 AM   
Venatrix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I don't think it works that way, V.   
 


No, perhaps it doesn't.  Regardless, the message that I'm taking away from this thread is that if a sub behaves badly, do not give him a second chance.  In fact, my experience has been that every time I *have* given someone a second chance, he's still turned out to be a major prick.  That, of course, does not include submissive men with whom I'm friends, as I find them to be quite a different kettle of French bread.  I am now going to wander off to see if I can do something about terminating the loud choruses of "I'm gonna wash that man right outta my hair" that are thumping through my head. 

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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 11:16:12 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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Status: offline 		Regardless, the message that I'm taking away from this thread is that if a sub behaves badly, do not give him a second chance. 

No argument from me. 

. . . That, of course, does not include submissive men with whom I'm friends, as I find them to be quite a different kettle of French bread. 
 
I feel likewise about certain of my femdom friends.  At times about as level-headed as enraged tigresses on overdoses of amphetamine, but I find myself feeling fond of them anyway. 

"I'm gonna wash that man right outta my hair"

Might be better than Gloria Gaynor's I Will Survive, as a certain friend suggested last night. 

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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 11:28:14 AM   
CdnExplorer


Posts: 227
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline 		Men aren't really raised to talk about their problems. I guess you could take that as a sign that men aren't worth the trouble, or you could use that understanding to expect a guy to react to situations differently than you might. Sure it sucks, but that's the society we live in and have to deal with. We can work towards reducing the amount of gender programming that goes on with our kids, but when it comes to the realm of relationships we're stuck with what's already out there.

A lot of people have the tendency to judge situations and people without really understanding what's going on. I've found that holding myself back from doing that, and not taking things personally, has served me very well when it comes to relating to other people. I don't always do that as well as I should of course, but I do try. If you don't write people off from the get go and give them a chance, then you just might find someone who becomes a really good friend, or significant other. If you already have more than enough people in your life don't bother, obviously, but I don't think most people are in that situation.

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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 11:48:21 AM   
Venatrix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CdnExplorer

A lot of people have the tendency to judge situations and people without really understanding what's going on.


That can be true in many situations, and no doubt people would react differently if they knew the full story.  Given the topic at hand, though, knowing that a guy is having problems with his orientation still isn't going to give me any incentive to put up with his bad behaviour.  It really comes down to how much of your precious time on this planet you want to spend giving people second, third, fourth, fifth chances, and expecting them to behave differently.  I believe it was Einstein who said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results.

I spent almost a year on someone doing this, feeling that fundamentally he was a good person.  I admitted to myself only earlier this week that he really was nothing more than an ill-mannered arsehole, and whatever good points he possessed in no way compensated for his bad ones.  If I could have invested my time on the stock market instead, I still would have got a better return.

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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 12:20:09 PM   
Lockit


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Status: offline 		OMG!  You cannot be suggesting that we or V should be more accepting of someone who may be playing games, using excuses for personal accountablity and devote whatever it takes to carry them through with understanding and not shut them down too soon... and that if she or we did, we might find a good friend or relationship!  No, you cannot be saying that!

Now dominant's are to be counsler's that devote themselves to the healing of another that has maybe not taken enough time to heal from the wounds of his gender and social expectations and training. ROFL!

Just how long does it take to get through this identity crisis?  Do tell me, how do we know a player who just wanted a kinky bootie call and is actually rude between one who is in the middle of an identity crisis?  I do believe there are men who are going through this, but give me a break... funny they don't have a crisis when it comes to play time and fantasy and they chase it down.  Sure the playtime could be some trigger... but to assume that all men are doing this when they play and run and act badly and allow it to be the treatment of dominant women is a crock of bs.

Women were not always taught to express their feelings.  Many were told to shut up and get in the kitchen and cook the he-men up some bacon and some beans.  Many were put down because they might cry or go too easy on the um's, spoiling them like lil women.  Need I go on?

This is about as big a crock as that thread on the submissive board suggesting that dominants should do time as submissive's to do away with abuse of power and a person.  Give me a friggin break!

quote:

ORIGINAL: CdnExplorer

Men aren't really raised to talk about their problems. I guess you could take that as a sign that men aren't worth the trouble, or you could use that understanding to expect a guy to react to situations differently than you might. Sure it sucks, but that's the society we live in and have to deal with. We can work towards reducing the amount of gender programming that goes on with our kids, but when it comes to the realm of relationships we're stuck with what's already out there.

A lot of people have the tendency to judge situations and people without really understanding what's going on. I've found that holding myself back from doing that, and not taking things personally, has served me very well when it comes to relating to other people. I don't always do that as well as I should of course, but I do try. If you don't write people off from the get go and give them a chance, then you just might find someone who becomes a really good friend, or significant other. If you already have more than enough people in your life don't bother, obviously, but I don't think most people are in that situation.



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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 12:21:02 PM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		I think that's just how it goes, V.  Some people you can tell once, twice, then three times that you really can't put up with the way that they behave, but that person just carries on doing the same.  I've had that experience.  It doesn't matter what they're going through - even after they've worked it out, they're not going to be well-mannered because they don't even register that they're being ill-mannered in the first place.

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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 12:47:22 PM   
RedMagic1


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Status: offline 		Well, I've decided not enough people hate me around here yet, so I'll post this little winner.

Everything Lockit and Venatrix are saying about the problems with submissive men, are things I could say equally well about many of the submissive women I've encountered in online dating.  A big part of my decision to pursue femdoms was because I was sick to death of dealing with passive-aggressive fantasy-suffocated women who thought they were all that and a bag of chips because they would call me Sir and allow me to mark them.  (The women I have met in real, by and large, have been awesome, regardless of their orientation.  But omg it took a lot of sorting to find them.)

By contrast, the femdoms I have spoken with, and met, tend to be reality-based, not fantasy-based... though often somewhat bitter and jaded, as we can see on this very thread.

My #1 filter at this point is: "Is she able to express herself clearly and directly?  Does she know who she is, and who she wants to become?"  I see this as the primary way to sidestep drama of the sort that has been discussed in this thread.


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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 12:48:41 PM   
CdnExplorer


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quote:

You cannot be suggesting that we or V should be more accepting of someone who may be playing games


How do you know when someone is playing games? A span of less than a day without talking is hardly a good indicator of "game playing".

quote:

Just how long does it take to get through this identity crisis?  Do tell me, how do we know a player who just wanted a kinky bootie call and is actually rude between one who is in the middle of an identity crisis?


It takes more than a day, which is how much time had passed before all and sundry wrote the poor bastard off. My entire point is that some people are absolutely fantastic at figuring out what's bothering them and communicating that to the people who matter. Other people take more time, because they don't have that same skill at self analysis. That's no excuse, it's a fact. If someone truly is compatible then things like this can be worked through, but if you always write someone off at the first sign of relationship troubles then you can expect to be alone for a long time. I've seen people here espouse that idea on a regular basis, and it just doesn't work. Relationships take work. If a relationship doesn't pan out because of incompatibilities with communication I don't take it personally and blame the other person.

I really can't fathom why some people prefer to assume that others have the worst of intentions.

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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 1:07:18 PM   
Venatrix


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Status: offline 		But you still haven't offered a convincing explanation why confusion should excuse a man from exhibiting good manners.  When someone extends basic hospitality to you, you send your thanks, never mind about when a woman has taken the time to play with you.  I notice that the OP's sub was perfectly capable of lashing out at her, but not perfectly capable of sending his thanks to her for spending time with him, and indicating either that he didn't see a future with her or that he needed time to think.  Obviously, he wasn't too confused about his orientation to be an arsehole, but he was too confused about his orientation to be a gentleman.  Please, give me a break.

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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 1:14:27 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
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Status: offline 		Human beings... regardless of gender will often be in denial, will often excuse their poor behavior and will often allow life wounds to fester without taking the proper treatment for those wounds.  I could go on with that one for a while too.  It is wonderful when someone can be patient and loving and understanding and support those who really wish to heal from life and come into their own and many of us have done this, tried this and were proven that more would rather remain a victim and in denial and wounded than those willing to do the emotional homework it takes to heal and move on, to live true to themselves.  (As a matter of fact, I am giving this attention, grace and love, to someone currently.)

Because someone confronts poor behavior that may be a result of some life wound and a process of healing or not, and decides not to deal with the drama or enable them with too much understanding or expects them to address their issues, does not mean they are jaded, embittered, heartless or lacking in compassion and understanding.  To base a relationship with someone in crisis is not a good idea no matter how wonderful a person is.  To want someone healthy to be with is not unreasonable.  To think that someone ought to give chances to someone who can emotionally hurt them with their reactions to a crisis and deem it a way to not be alone and preferable to being alone is laughable and unfair to expect and falls right in that enabling of all sorts of mental health issues.  No thank you... alone is not that bad.  I sleep much, much better at night! lol

While it is nice to be understanding when someone is in crisis... just how understanding should one be when that one in crisis lies and then runs?  Is the one they lied to and ran from superhuman or expected to suffer the brunt of someone elses dysfunction?  How about a lil understanding for those who are subject to those lies all excused by human truama that every fucking person in life has had to deal with in some form or another?

I enjoy my relationships and have had many, some good, some bad because of mental health issues or crisis.  I have had my own crisis.  I cannot expect that every person would know how to handle mine, for which I was handling, do handle and still come out happy, opinionated, but hardly overly jaded, embittered or dysfunctional.  To know me personally, most are amazed at my heart and joy in life despite it all.  When I am not able to joyfully and with a fair amount of trust given until it is foolhardy to give, I take myself out of the game and don't expect another to handle my life wound burdens.  But if I am straight forward, no bs talkin and have some expectations that people handle their issues with some dignity and without doing harm... is a bad thing... then I will be bad, gladly.

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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 1:21:42 PM   
Venatrix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Well, I've decided not enough people hate me around here yet, so I'll post this little winner.

A big part of my decision to pursue femdoms was because I was sick to death of dealing with passive-aggressive fantasy-suffocated women . . .

By contrast, the femdoms I have spoken with, and met, tend to be reality-based, not fantasy-based... though often somewhat bitter and jaded, as we can see on this very thread.



If you want to be hated around here, Red, you'll have to try *much* harder than that.  Men on these boards have been pissing us off since AD 312.  Yes, at least with dominant women all you get is the aggression, and we like to think being bitter and jaded adds to our charm.  I try to throw in a touch of ennui just to make myself that much more appealing. 

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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 4:29:20 PM   
MsMillgrove


Posts: 260
Joined: 5/27/2008
Status: offline 		I fight a tremendous internal battle to avoid sounding bitter or feeling jaded. It's close to impossible not to reactive negatively when you hear the same refrains sung over and over again. Both subs and dommes go through incredible stresses in the CM search. A few are lucky early on.. connect.. and can bow out of the fray. The rest had the same set of experiences repeatedly. Both subs and dommes. Unhappy, frustrating and difficult passages.

Aubs and dommes have a set of expectations for one another. The subs expect understanding/compassion and acceptance of their conflicts/confusions/uncertainties, the dommes expect consideration, a show of interest in their needs, and common courtesy. Both are frequently disappointed.

On the second chance issue: I am won't do it anymore. The last round blew me out the window.. and I decided that if I only learned one thing from that trip was Don't do it ever again.

On the upside, I found two wonderful people through CM to sub to me. All the discussion in the world won't change this fact: a numbers game. If you do your best, keep trying, stay in the game, you'll finally win the prize you want. It takes forever, you suffer, you scream and cry.. you go home to bandage the wounds and start over again.

A vanilla friend of mine was at retirement age, he'd been married 3 times and he sounded like shit on paper.. but ...he's been one of my dearest friends for 40 years. I know firsthand that he is a great "catch". He went on matchcom with the determination to find a partner. it took 60 trips for coffee dates at Starbucks to find that one wonderful woman who was his "match". Everytime I get discouraged, I think about his determination and belief that someone was out there for him, that if he just keep going, he'd find her. I asked him, "How could you do that.. over and over again. Sixty times??" and he said, "Math-odds: sooner or later your number comes up."
They're celebrating four years together next month.

All the speculation here about what went wrong for the two individuals...won't change the fact that the sub doesn't want to be with this lovely mistress. His loss. She'll find someone who appreciates her. She made no mistakes in her handling of the situation. I plan to think positive thoughts for her everyday and look forward to hearing she's found her "match".



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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 6:26:10 PM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		But you still haven't offered a convincing explanation why confusion should excuse a man from exhibiting good manners. 

V, I think Cdn Explorer has stated now, a few times, that he's not excusing anyone from anything.  As he says, "My entire point is that some people are absolutely fantastic at figuring out what's bothering them and communicating that to the people who matter. Other people take more time, because they don't have that same skill at self analysis."

It doesn't help the OP, in my opinion, to take the line that 'to understand a person is at the same time to excuse that person'.  This point of view seems to be pumped over and over again.  I'm wondering - why?  

Do we think that this line will help the OP in some great way?  Do we think that she'll be made to feel better if only she can accept that the man she met, and believed in enough to want a partnership, is in fact a total arsehole with no motives that make any sense?  I doubt it.  That would imply that her judgment about men is entirely wrong and can't, ever, be trusted.  I doubt that she'd take that as good news.  She wouldn't have got together with this man at all unless she thought he seemed like a good guy.  Is she now required to hate her own sense of judgment as well as what ever else she (wrongly) might be hating about herself right now?

The truth is, as far as I can see, a) that he is something of an arsehole - that is, weak, ill-mannered, boorish - because he didn't communicate with the OP and for sundry other reasons and b) pretty much, as far as I can work out, someone who was quite thrown by his experience and needs to sort it out - perhaps in just the way CdnExplorer says.  That is, to break contact and go off into himself.  (Ironic that someone should say 'oh, are we femdoms required to be counsellors too?'  I'd say: If only.  This man went off on his own, like nearly all do.  It might have been great if he could have said to the OP "This is really troubling me.  Can you help me?" )

I'm sorry, but this easy "Oh yes, aren't submales awful?" line is, ultimately, useless.  Never mind about 'being charitable to submales'.  That's irrelevant.  Femdoms are still going to want to get together with submales, no matter how 'awful' they are. 
Femdoms therefore need to know 'their enemy'.  And of course, it makes no difference that there are 38 billion submales to each femdom, because most of the 'eagerly waiting to take his place' submales could be just as bad as the first - as all femdoms know only too well. 

In short, it's perfectly possible both to understand and to condemn.  We can all do whichever combination of those we feel to be the most helpful.   

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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 6:46:54 PM   
TheLadyIsADomme


Posts: 89
Joined: 4/10/2009
From: Florida
Status: offline 		I get the "retreat into my cave" mentality.  And I don't particularly condone or condemn it.  I think what got me more upset here was twofold:  One:  the lack of respect/contact which was expected, and two: the actual reply which, in my opinion, is not truthful (and possibly intended to be hurtful).
 
But, all that being said, I learned many things from the experience itself, and the aftermath (gee, that makes it sound so awful, doesn't it?  LOL).
 
I have been able over the course of this week to put the whole thing into perspective, and move past it.  And certainly, I will behave/react/expect differently the next time.  Does this make me not want to seek out another boy?  Absolutely not.  Does this make me question my "dom-hood", my womanliness or even my judgment?  Not a bit.  With this guy, in this situation, it did not work.  That is not indicative of what will happen the next time around.
 
Thanks all. 
 
Warmly,
LD

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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 7:03:06 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		LD, I get the same way from time to time.  With Me, the first thing I do is stop using voice on the phone.  (Don't care for it much really to begin with.)  People in My life already pretty much know this about Me.  They'll call.  If I'm not in the mood for talking, they'll see Me pop up on IM or send an email.  At minimum, I'll do a text message. 

As for the rest of the discussion, I get what both camps (for lack of a better word) are saying here.  The points about processing are valid, but so are those that Dommes aren't mind readers.  There probably has to be a little willingness on each side to see the other's position.

A while back, there was a wonderful post written by undergroundsea about processing after some play he experienced and how he handled the emotions afterward.  While I don't think it's related to the original of your post, it might be an interesting read.


ETA   I did a quick search, but I can't find the one I'm thinking of.  Should I stumble onto it, I'll let you know.


< Message edited by LadyPact -- 7/11/2009 7:10:56 PM >

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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 7:33:57 PM   
Venatrix


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Status: offline 		You, along with some other men posting, seem to be missing my point.  As I've said before, my point is that it's one thing to need time to process the situation, and another thing simply to be courteous and send an email that says thanks, but I need time to think.  If a man is incapable of doing that small thing, then by rights he should be so overwhelmed by his submission that he's sitting curled up in a ball in a corner of the room with the lights out, incapable of taking a shower, feeding himself, dressing himself, or going to work.  Is that actually the case?  I doubt it.

If you re-read my posts, I think you'll see that I did say that whilst it might be understandable that someone is confused, there was still no incentive for most women to put up with it, particularly when accompanied by bad behaviour.

You said it didn't help the OP "to take that line."  Do you know the OP personally?  No?  Then how do you know what will or will not be helpful to her?  She seems, from her profile, like a thoroughly well grounded person, and she has shown though numerous posts that she is perfectly capable of sifting through our responses to find out what is useful to her without any help from us.  I find it presumptuous and patronising to suggest that our remarks would cause LD to question her judgement of men.  Perhaps you think your remarks have that kind of influence over people, but I wouldn't even remotely be so conceited.  And it doesn't sound at all to me like LD is hating herself right now, quite the opposite, in fact.  It's utterly preposterous that anyone would say such a thing.

Some femdoms might still want to get together with sub males no matter how awful they are, but I can guarantee you that the femdoms I know are a bit more discerning than that.  But thank you for your comments, Mr. Kissinger.  Your diplomacy skills are impressive.

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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 7:53:00 PM   
SueACydell


Posts: 9
Joined: 8/1/2008
Status: offline 		It's not just submissive men, belieeeeeeve me!

I've had this experience a LOT with people online, and it's the main reason I am no longer open to meeting anyone using this medium--had my heart abused too many times like this.

Men of all stripes whom I've met online simply disappear if they're no longer interested--even if we've spent lots of time getting to know each other, and sometimes even after we've met in person.  If he doesn't want a relationship with you, it's too easy for him to take the coward's way out and simply never contact you again, rather than having a potentially difficult conversation about why.  My theory: People you meet online usually have nothing to lose as no one in their daily life (coworkers, friends, neighbors) will know that they've behaved so cowardly and disrespectfully.  The prospect of social disapproval keeps men in line slightly better if you have acquaintances in common, live in the same neighborhood, etc. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

I'm sorry to hear that, LD.  It's happened to all of us in one form or another, so it's no reflection on you, and this sort of behaviour is one of the reasons why I'm so lukewarm about submissive men at the moment.  There are some notable exceptions, but my experience of the past few years has been that submissive men, as a group, have absolutely appalling manners.  I'd also be willing to bet my not inconsiderable collection of art books that he'll be back in touch at some point, begging for forgiveness, some lame excuse attached to his sorry arse.  Please, please don't fall for it.  Leopards don't change their stripes, and all that.

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RE: What went wrong? - 7/11/2009 7:59:36 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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Status: offline 		If you re-read my posts, I think you'll see that I did say that whilst it might be understandable that someone is confused, there was still no incentive for most women to put up with it, particularly when accompanied by bad behaviour.
 
Actually, there is an incentive for women to put up with it because they'd know that the next submale they meet might be even worse.  Given this, it's worth understanding what is going wrong and why, in hopes that a nearly-good man might be made wholly good.  

I find it presumptuous and patronising to suggest that our remarks would cause LD to question her judgement of men. 
 
I think you probably realise that I didn't mean it in that way.  People just do start thinking 'what's wrong with me that this person should treat me this way?'  They shouldn't, of course, but they do.  I certainly have done in such situations - that is, when women have been rude, childish or otherwise nasty to me.  It always helps to understand why they're being this way in order to stop that 'what's wrong with me' question arising unnecessarily.

But thank you for your comments, Mr. Kissinger.  Your diplomacy skills are impressive.
 
Yeah, whatever.  I was trying to be realistic. 





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(in reply to Venatrix)
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