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RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 8:59:46 PM   
olena


Posts: 97
Joined: 12/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LdyWintershade

Look, I know that this subject has many people 'worked up', but I just wanted to get some feedback, which I've gotten...and thanks for it.  It has been interesting and direct..lol
As for the group, it's not like they are forcing every person in the area to comply NOR are they the only 'game in town'.  People are aware of the rules before signing on and choose to do so because they agree.
It is NOT any sort of cure for the abuse of power, however in the years since the rule was instituted, there have been less incidents within the group....whether that is the result of the people, the rule or the just dumb luck is anyone's guess. 
Those who created the rule made it their first task to undergo the process themselves to avoid hypocrisy and deferred to one another to accomplish it.
It is also not the ONLY method of weeding out potentially dangerous nut cases.  I won't go into any more of the groups' protocols as it is clear that the majority here would only take exception to it.
Lastly, it may very well be misconception or blatant manipulation; if the former....I give credit for the intention and the attempt because at least they are trying.  If the latter, than kudos to them for being devious and deliciously wicked.
 - I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death, your right to say it.




Publicly stated group intentions, publicly stated private intentions and motivations can all be different things. A mission statement and what actually is communicated within the group and the promotion of a group can be many different things.

Most people have good intentions but theirs is not on top of a slippery slope but have already sliding down the slope. I would not bet a penny that group does not go way too far in thinking what they do makes them a better group and better dominants then others and that seeps out of many of them. You could never convince me that many in such a group use this process to feed their egos and use it as “I am superior and safer because” and those are as big of red flags then anything.

The words can be spun anyway you may want them to be but the message is really our group has safer and better dominants. It is jokingly unfair to other groups and individuals and I personally would not think much of these people if they truly bought what you originally posted and think what you last posted makes it a better and safer system.

If they want to promote their group way as just our way we like to do it is one thing, but to think it is a better way or eliminates risk therefore the other ways must be riskier is ego and strictly self serving.

(in reply to LdyWintershade)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 9:05:57 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daintydimples
I agree wholeheartedly. However, I have been quite surprised at the response not to the mandate, but to the IDEA of a dominant learning through being trained as a submissive. This is not a new concept.



I don't believe that was what was most considered the issue.  Some folks have been trained as submissives first and said it benefited them.  Others have known it wasn't their path.  It doesn't give more value to one rather than the other.  It just means we got wherever we are by the way we chose to go.

You are absolutely right that it's not a new concept.  A lot of leather clubs used to mandate the same thing.  That's changed.  Part of the reason for that is that it's no more right to require someone to serve, and dedicate that time to not being who they really are, than it is to spend a time attempting vanilla rather than kinky.  I can promise you that it isn't a requirement to serve to be a Master/Mistress. 

I've listened to many people relate how they felt that doing it that way was the best way for them.  I would never attempt to take away from their experiences, the knowledge, or the skills they gained.  That doesn't necessarily make it the right way for everyone.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to daintydimples)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 10:00:04 PM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Not a sub. I'm answering anyway.

The day, the hour, the minute any community decides they can dictate to Me who I am, how I run this household, or any other thing, I will happily remove Myself from said community, and darken that door no longer.


I agree with this totally and want to add, I cannot possibly "submit" because I do not have a submissive personality/mindset. If someone tried to force me to submit it would lead to a nasty physical confrontation.

If other D types find this appealing then jolly good for them, but for me it would never fly. No one tells me what to do, why? I am Dominant and frankly I do not care what other people in the "community" think about me.

~Lashra


_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/11/2009 11:04:47 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		In my view this lacks logic.  Ok.. let's say you want the dominant to learn how things feel, how a sub may react, ect. One, if he is dominant I can almost predict the reaction is not the same.  lol personally I have found dominants don't really care to be played hard.  So, if he learns to be soft and gentle .. YUCK YUCK YUCK YUCK.
Now.. let's take the sub.  I have seen some pretty impatient subs here.  I know it takes work to dominate, to organise to make things run smoothly, to keep your bottom at a peak of .. excuse me I digress..  But following the logic of this group wouldn't it also serve the relationship to have each sub spend time topping or dominating so they know how hard this stuff can be?
The premise is invalid unless you demand this from both sides.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: LdyWintershade

Look, I know that this subject has many people 'worked up', but I just wanted to get some feedback, which I've gotten...and thanks for it.  It has been interesting and direct..lol
As for the group, it's not like they are forcing every person in the area to comply NOR are they the only 'game in town'.  People are aware of the rules before signing on and choose to do so because they agree.
It is NOT any sort of cure for the abuse of power, however in the years since the rule was instituted, there have been less incidents within the group....whether that is the result of the people, the rule or the just dumb luck is anyone's guess. 
Those who created the rule made it their first task to undergo the process themselves to avoid hypocrisy and deferred to one another to accomplish it.
It is also not the ONLY method of weeding out potentially dangerous nut cases.  I won't go into any more of the groups' protocols as it is clear that the majority here would only take exception to it.
Lastly, it may very well be misconception or blatant manipulation; if the former....I give credit for the intention and the attempt because at least they are trying.  If the latter, than kudos to them for being devious and deliciously wicked.


- I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death, your right to say it.


(in reply to LdyWintershade)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/12/2009 2:06:58 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Doing it because you have to, while loathing the experience, won't teach you what it is like for someone who enjoys it. Suffering pain while having no enjoyment from the experience won't teach you to enjoy pain.

Hell, by this sort of thinking why not demand subs become dominants for a while also? Won't teach you to enjoy service if you prefer to give it, won't teach you to enjoy giving pain if doing so makes you ill.

Want to run educational classes so newbies don't get the idea that they can duplicate stuff seen in porn without bad consequences? I'm all for it. But if you hate being flogged, then what you'll learn is not to use it even on a sub who finds it a great relaxation tool.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/12/2009 6:36:25 AM   
daddysliloneds


Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

As a sub/slave, do you find it to be a weakness or a benefit for a Dom/me to have served as a sub/slave in the past?


neither; but i couldn't submit to a submissive; bottom to them perhaps, but not submit.

(in reply to LdyWintershade)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/12/2009 9:41:22 AM   
MMagic


Posts: 183
Joined: 2/9/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Cool.. just Doms and not people.  Must be nice to keep one in the closet for use whenever a need must be met.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: MMagic
is that we'd prefer Doms who were just Doms. 




LOL I LOVE how people take a piece of a post and try to present an arguement with it..really? Come on now people.


_____________________________

Between two evils, I always pick the one I never tried before. -Mae West



(in reply to Missokyst)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/12/2009 10:40:28 AM   
vasha


Posts: 99
Joined: 2/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

I see any man, who would submit to a room full of strangers, simply because they said he must...as being WEAK.


dont know if youre aware, but that's takeing the OP... waaaay out of context.  a lot of poeples seem to me to be doing the same. 
the original questoin wasnt "if a group wants to attempt to make a/the  Dom/Me submit, would you let it happen or how would you feel?" reason not withstanding.
my answer to That would be... no one should even attempt to dictate such a thing to/for a/the Dominant.  find the door.  quickly.


not ment to anyone specific at all buuut:  i know this is a touchie subject for many, but please.. can keep it more civil/polite? 

~vasha

< Message edited by vasha -- 7/12/2009 10:47:41 AM >

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/12/2009 1:29:24 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

can keep it more civil/polite?

ahhh, you are so new here that it's obvious....but....I AM BEING CIVIL AND POLITE....

ask anyone



_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


(in reply to vasha)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/12/2009 3:24:22 PM   
vasha


Posts: 99
Joined: 2/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

can keep it more civil/polite?

ahhh, you are so new here that it's obvious....but....I AM BEING CIVIL AND POLITE....

ask anyone



quote:

  not ment to anyone specific at all buuut:  i know this is a touchie subject for many, but please.. can keep it more civil/polite? 

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/12/2009 5:01:17 PM   
AlchemicMelody


Posts: 35
Joined: 6/21/2009
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		I could honestly care less. This is reminding me of the whole 'twue' submissive/dom thing. If a dom was a sub for a bit, great. But I just suppose that it could go either way.


_____________________________

"Don't be ashamed of who you love." - Kaya: Japanese singer

(in reply to vasha)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/13/2009 8:47:01 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		I'm a switch, and don't think it's weak at all for someone to choose to serve someone else. I think it's smart for anyone who is brand-new to BDSM to try both sides, at least a little. However, specifically *submission* isn't something that can be conjured on demand, and I think that requiring service, especially in private with someone who isn't well-known is a bad idea.

Personally, I started out as a Domme for 5 years, did a little switching/bottoming within my next relationship, had a couple more as top, bottom, or switch, for a total of 6 years, and didn't submit until my last relationship, which lasted for 3 years. I'm a slave in my current relationship - we've been dating for 3 months, and in a committed relationship for about a month. If someone had expected me to submit immediately, I would have refused. I didn't get involved in the public scene until I'd done BDSM of various sorts for 8 years.

(in reply to LdyWintershade)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/14/2009 6:37:36 PM   
TimrehIX


Posts: 75
Joined: 6/29/2009
Status: offline 		A sub is in a much more vulnerable position than a Dom. So the theory that a Dom should experience the submissive role first makes much more sense than a sub trying out the Dom side.
 
I would say that I would be more comfortable with a Dom who had briefly been a sub, than a Dom who had never been on the other side of the whip. I want someone who understands the anticipation of the next strike and felt the tingle over their skin as the blood rushed to the surface. I want someone who knows that just because I submit doesn’t mean I have no worth. I want to know that my Dom understands what it’s like to be completely at the will of someone else that could if they chose, ignore your limits.
 
Not all Dom’s need to spend time as a sub to get these things. But there are Doms who are so wrapped up in their “I’m a bad ass Dom” mentality that they don’t consider the sub they are using.
 
I would say no experience is going to lessen the quality of a good Dom. But a few bad Doms could learn from being a sub.
 I wouldn’t force any one in to any role they were uncomfortable with though. Some people just don’t have the strength and/or desire to surrender.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/14/2009 7:31:35 PM   
DearJessicaD


Posts: 55
Joined: 10/26/2008
From: East Coast
Status: offline 		I don't think one thing works for everyone. None of the three men I've been with were ever subs. Two were great, one was horrific and he'd never have joined any club that required him to submit.

(in reply to LdyWintershade)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/14/2009 8:06:21 PM   
petmonkey


Posts: 1053
Joined: 7/7/2009
Status: offline 		Beneficial but not necessary for all; to at least having bottomed once, to improve their understanding and ability to control, say, how a device is used, how a scene might play-out or a general impression of a subs experience.  i'm sure that some individuals have the emotional intelligence and maturity to not need it.
i do not see a Dom as weak for wondering, "What does this feel like?" and answering that question. Knowledge and fearlessness are powerful and sexy. That They had been willing to try stepping outside Their comfort zone to understand me would impress me rather than repulse me.  That they were capable of stretching their own boundaries that far would make me more relaxed about Them stretching mine.


(in reply to LdyWintershade)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/15/2009 4:37:43 AM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		When I first started out with BDSM I had read the suggestion that if someone thought they had it in them to be a Dom/me that they should start with a year as a submissive and that always made perfect sense to me.  It would not work for everyone, but having been both Domme and slave myself I know that there are emotions that I felt as a slave that I never would have guessed at.

I once helped to train a Dom who admitted to me that he had a fear of pain.  He wanted me to train him in wax play, bought the candles, then gave them to me.  We talked it out and he told me how afraid he was to trust anyone.  I told him that I wanted him to concentrate very hard on that feeling, and he almost started shaking.  I said, "This is exactly how some of your subs will feel.  They will ask for something thinking that they truly want it, then will get scared.  I want you to remember this feeling because someday someone you are training will feel exactly the same thing."  He was astonished.  He assumed that if someone was a sub/slave that they would never hesitate at a command or feel any fear.  If he hadn't felt that fear himself he simply wasn't capable of imagining someone else going through it.  Granted, he was less imaginative and empathetic than many Doms, but that was probably the single most important lesson he learned about being a Dom because he was in the position to submission - even though it was only long enough to learn a technique.  (By the way, he did end up going through with it and found that he enjoyed it very much.  I praised him highly, and then used that as an object lesson to help him to remember that subs also need that after overcoming their fears.)

Not everyone would, or could, allow themselves to submit - not even for a week.  I think that those who do show no weakness at all, nor any wish to later be a switch, but show a courage to look at the other side right from within that person's shoes.  I applaud it wholeheartedly.


_____________________________



(in reply to petmonkey)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Weakness or Benefit???? - 7/15/2009 6:23:44 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I might see this in terms of using implements of torment.  As a masochist submissive I enjoy a lot.  As a sadist I like hurting people, it makes me laugh.  lol but I am not a dominant type and cannot get into the power. 
Once again it becomes a matter of what are you trying to teach them?  I am a sub.  One would think after all these years I would have learned to become a wonderful dominant if experiencing things from a subs POV was the criteria for making me understand.  But it wil never make me understand why anyone would choose to be in that role over my role.
I would rather play with a man who has never done this before and had the sense to watch my reactions, than one who did 1 yr as a sub and treats me as if I were going to react like he did when bottoming.
I have played with those first timers and never felt vulnerable.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: TimrehIX

A sub is in a much more vulnerable position than a Dom. So the theory that a Dom should experience the submissive role first makes much more sense than a sub trying out the Dom side. 
  

(in reply to TimrehIX)
Profile   Post #: 97
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