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Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 4:10:00 AM

housesub4you

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Joined: 4/2/2008
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I think this will end up in court as once again people over react. I love the line in the article "it's OK to protest, but just protest in a different way"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090710/ap_on_re_us/us_upside_down_flag

I could not find a way to blame Bush, but then I have not had much time

Post #: 1

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 4:33:54 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
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Okay this may be a stupid question but before you spend 200K to create a restaurant, don't you think its wise to make sure you can GET all the licenses you will need to run your business successfully? Obviously he somehow didn't do his due diligence or is refusing to do whatever he needs to do to get the licence, so because of his own lack of planning and due diligence or follow the necessary rules, he is protesting what exactly? Is it an issue for the police? It really doesn't give enough information.

Taking this to court to me would be plain silly and overly ridiculous.

angel

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to housesub4you)

Post #: 2

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 7:29:29 AM

slaveboyforyou

Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline

quote:

Okay this may be a stupid question but before you spend 200K to create a restaurant, don't you think its wise to make sure you can GET all the licenses you will need to run your business successfully? Obviously he somehow didn't do his due diligence or is refusing to do whatever he needs to do to get the licence, so because of his own lack of planning and due diligence or follow the necessary rules, he is protesting what exactly? Is it an issue for the police? It really doesn't give enough information.

Taking this to court to me would be plain silly and overly ridiculous.

angel

How exactly was he supposed to find out if he could get a liquor license at a business he didn't even own yet? Liquor licenses are funny things, and it's different in every state. I don't know about Wisconsin, but the Liquor board here will refuse liquor licenses many times just because some church nearby protests. Sometimes the city board will protest it, or the local police department will. You can't possibly find information like that out before you buy a place. All sorts of factors come into play when someone applies for a license. He bought the business, and he applied. I don't know why they denied him the license, but he has every right to protest the decision in the manner he chose. The police department had absolutely no right to do what they did. For fuck's sake, they didn't even have a court order giving them permission to do that.

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 3

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 8:04:14 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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      Flying a flag upside down is a very provocative sort of expression. The article notes that it is a sign of distress, but I think that is often taken far to casually. It is a great disrespect to the flag to fly it like that. There is a "come now, bring guns" sort of urgency to that call for help.

    As I read the article, the local authorities know damn well that the jackass has a right to his free speech. They gave the flag back after the 4th. Public safety? Could this meet the yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater sort of standard?

     I'm reminded of some viral video that went around a year or so back. Some bar decided it would be cute to fly the Mexican flag above the US flag, and the local news station sent a crew down. Sure enough, along comes a Vietnam Vet with a big knife, and cameras rolling, the Mexican flag winds up on the sidewalk as he claims the US flag. The Mexicans (I assume) had the sense to stay the fuck back while this happened. Would our sniveling bitch who can't get his liquor license be so wise?

    This might have been exactly the right course of action.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 7/11/2009 8:06:23 AM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 9:10:01 AM

Arpig

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I simply cannot understand the bizzare attitude of most Americans to their flag. Its a friggin piece of cloth!! How can one disrespect a piece of cloth? Its a symbol you say? Fine its a symbol, nothing more or less, just a symbol, no different really than the Nike swoop.

quote:

It is a great disrespect to the flag to fly it like that.

Why and how is it at all disrespectful? Its an accepted international distress signal to fly a flag upside down. No disrespect at all.

quote:

There is a "come now, bring guns" sort of urgency to that call for help.

I agree with you here, the "distress" he is suffering is hardly the sort of emergency implied by flying a flag upside down. He is exagerating his situation, but then again if it was me facing bankruptcy I may feel differently.

quote:

As I read the article, the local authorities know damn well that the jackass has a right to his free speech. They gave the flag back after the 4th.

If they know damn well that he has the right to do what he did under the free speech clause of the Constitution, then why the fuck did they decide to deny him the opportunity to excercise those rights. And giving him back the flag in no way diminishes what they did. He had every right to do what he did, and they had no right to do what they did.

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Post #: 5

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 9:27:50 AM

TheHeretic

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I think you missed the meat of my post, Arpig. The "fire" in a crowded theater exception may have applied here. Just because you don't "get" the disrespect to the flag doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Some people don't get why the word "nigger" is a problem, either.

If that display was going to create a public safety hazard on the 4th of July, the local authorities may have had every right to do what they did. If the courts rule otherwise, maybe he'll get his money back.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 6

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 9:56:57 AM

slaveboyforyou

Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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I'm not defending this guy's character. He's obviously a jackass; there are better ways to go about getting his liquor license, hiring an attorney comes to mind. But I think he had a right to do what he did, no matter how fucking stupid it is. I don't see why the police had any business doing what they did without a court order. If they had a 'cease and desist' order from a judge, I wouldn't have a problem. He could appeal it. But they didn't have that.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 7

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 10:30:44 AM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I simply cannot understand the bizzare attitude of most Americans to their flag. Its a friggin piece of cloth!! How can one disrespect a piece of cloth? Its a symbol you say? Fine its a symbol, nothing more or less, just a symbol, no different really than the Nike swoop.

ORLY. Do you respect collars as a symbol? I know many Doms who would come to blows over someone disrespecting someones collar. Methinks the flag is a bit more important than a collar.

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 8

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 10:37:17 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

quote:

How exactly was he supposed to find out if he could get a liquor license at a business he didn't even own yet? Liquor licenses are funny things, and it's different in every state. I don't know about Wisconsin, but the Liquor board here will refuse liquor licenses many times just because some church nearby protests. Sometimes the city board will protest it, or the local police department will. You can't possibly find information like that out before you buy a place. All sorts of factors come into play when someone applies for a license. He bought the business, and he applied. I don't know why they denied him the license, but he has every right to protest the decision in the manner he chose. The police department had absolutely no right to do what they did. For fuck's sake, they didn't even have a court order giving them permission to do that.

Your initial question and subsequent explanation really make no sense to me. Damn straight you can find that information out before hand, people who expends hundreds of thousands on a venue, don't irresponsibly on a guess build a restuarant and then HOPE they will be issued all the licenses they need to run the establishment as they wish. On some personal knowledge, when a tavern was closing in a neighborhood in Chicago, there was knowledge that they would NO LONGER issue liquor licenses to that specific plot building, place, plot -- i can't remember which. grins, which was ironic because it was two doors down from a liquor store and had been for 20+ years. I am sorry but there are ways to find out if you would be able to get a liquor license PRIOR to expending money on a restaurant. Again, I can't believe people spend money on a gamble they will be allowed to GET a liquor license if that is what they want for their restauarant. What you are saying is the guy on a whim decided to build a restaurant without doing his due diligence if he could GET all the licenses he would need to RUN his establishment. Grant it i don't know the specifics, but i can't believe people build restuarants on whims and then cross their fingers that they will be able to get it correctly licensed AFTER expending the money. Sorry but people expending $200 grand on building something for a specific purpose are not going to do it on a whim HOPING they can get the licenses. They damn straight will do their due diligence on whether they will be able to get everything approved and licensed which means they dot al the i's and cross the t's before investing the money.

angel

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

Post #: 9

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 10:47:20 AM

slaveboyforyou

Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

Your initial question and subsequent explanation really make no sense to me. Damn straight you can find that information out before hand, people who expends hundreds of thousands on a venue, don't irresponsibly on a guess build a restuarant and then HOPE they will be issued all the licenses they need to run the establishment as they wish. On some personal knowledge, when a tavern was closing in a neighborhood in Chicago, there was knowledge that they would NO LONGER issue liquor licenses to that specific plot building, place, plot -- i can't remember which. grins, which was ironic because it was two doors down from a liquor store and had been for 20+ years. I am sorry but there are ways to find out if you would be able to get a liquor license PRIOR to expending money on a restaurant. Again, I can't believe people spend money on a gamble they will be allowed to GET a liquor license if that is what they want for their restauarant. What you are saying is the guy on a whim decided to build a restaurant without doing his due diligence if he could GET all the licenses he would need to RUN his establishment. Grant it i don't know the specifics, but i can't believe people build restuarants on whims and then cross their fingers that they will be able to get it correctly licensed AFTER expending the money. Sorry but people expending $200 grand on building something for a specific purpose are not going to do it on a whim HOPING they can get the licenses. They damn straight will do their due diligence on whether they will be able to get everything approved and licensed which means they dot al the i's and cross the t's before investing the money.

Angel no offense, seriously. But it would be a lot easier to read your posts if you divided them into paragraphs. I almost didn't read this; it strains my eyes. Now, you're experiences in Chicago don't apply to a small town in Wisconsin. You really don't know what this guy did prior to buying his place, neither do I. We're both guessing. For all you know, he might have been promised by the powers that be that he would get it. After he bought the place, that promise might not have been kept. So all you're doing is speculating. A broken promise or crooked politics may very well be why this guy is pissed off.

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 10

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 10:55:48 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

Chuckles, my paragraphs are fine. At least the way i write are fine for judges and attorneys etc, and i don't change my writing style based upon venue. In college my writing tended to receive A's. So you will excuse me if some nickname on a message board wants to make my writing style an issue, and i see it as silliness. I have it on pretty good authority my writing style is fine. Your attempt here is why i lose respect for you in discussions. So i didn't read your response past your first 2 sentences because its not worth my time.

Next time try addressing the topic instead of making silly statements.

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/11/2009 10:56:27 AM >

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

Post #: 11

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 11:00:53 AM

slaveboyforyou

Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline

quote:

Chuckles, my paragraphs are fine. At least the way i write are fine for judges and attorneys etc, and i don't change my writing style based upon venue. In college my writing tended to receive A's. So you will excuse me if some nickname on a message board wants to make my writing style an issue, and i see it as silliness. I have it on pretty good authority my writing style is fine. Your attempt here is why i lose respect for you in discussions. So i didn't read your response past your first 2 sentences because its not worth my time.

Next time try addressing the topic instead of making silly statements.

I did address the topic. You obviously are unable to take criticism. You're paragraphs are not fine, because they were non-existant. It was one long string of words. My writing in college received A's as well, and I worked in the writing lab helping others with their papers. You obviously read that one sentence, and it irritated you to the point where you didn't read the rest of the post. Chill out, it wasn't meant to offend.

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 12

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 11:05:21 AM

downkitty

Posts: 224
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Flying a flag upside down is a very provocative sort of expression. The article notes that it is a sign of distress, but I think that is often taken far to casually. It is a great disrespect to the flag to fly it like that. There is a "come now, bring guns" sort of urgency to that call for help.

<snipped for brevity>

Flying the flag upside down is an urgent call for armed assistance. As a veteran, that man knew full well how some people would respond. I realize that there is a large percentage of the population who are not aware of the urgency of the distress signal, but he damned well knew any veteran or emergency assistance personnel would know. The proper response to seeing the flag flown upside down (for an officer) is to get his ass over there, guns drawn, backup called for. Upon arriving on scene to find no real distress, the flag would be taken down so other personnel didn't waste their time responding the same way. This would also ensure that citizens would not grab their rifles and head out to the property to assist. You'd be surprised at how many people do actually know what flying the flag upside down means.

An interesting movie quote from "In the Valley of Elah" (Hank Deerfield is played by Tommy Lee Jones)

Hank Deerfield: Do you know what it means when a flag flies upside down?
School Janitor: No...?
Hank Deerfield: Its an international distress signal...
School Janitor: No shit?
Hank Deerfield: No Shit! It means we're in a whole lot of trouble so come save our asses 'cause we ain't got a prayer in hell of saving it ourselves.
School Janitor: It says alot...
Hank Deerfield: Yes, it does...

_____________________________

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(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 13

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 11:07:08 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Your initial question and subsequent explanation really make no sense to me. Damn straight you can find that information out before hand, people who expends hundreds of thousands on a venue, don't irresponsibly on a guess build a restuarant and then HOPE they will be issued all the licenses they need to run the establishment as they wish.

It happens all the time, Angel. Your mileage may vary, of course, but this kind of thing is pretty common. This isn't just about his rights as a business owner, but also the rights of those who live nearby. The liquor license process, the conditional use permits, the zoning boards, these all create a venue for protest and opposition. His rights do not exist in a vacuum. How do the neighbors feel about having a "supper club" around the corner? How late will the drunks come wandering out into the streets? His liberty doesn't automatically trump their pursuit of happiness.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 14

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 12:42:34 PM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
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I do understand that but what i am saing especially with regard to liquor licenses, there is a concept of due diliegence people perform PRIOR to building, and expending 200K without a damn firm belief that they will be able to obtain all what they need. If they don't -- they need a better lawyer, investment advisor etc. Due diligence is not just walking into the licensing place saying can i get a license some idiot says sure why not and that's that. Its making sure ALL is investigated prior, which means you check it all out, unless you are really that much of a gambler and if you are - then when you lose why protest something you took a gamble on? Due diligence is due diligence. Sorry i don't buy that people expend that amount of money without doing due diligence to make sure they 1) either KNOW the obstacles they have to overcome, or 2) have a reasonable belief based on investigation and due diligence that they have covered all basis that they need to run the restaurant the way they want which means obtaining any and all licenses. Maybe this guy did and something didn't pan out or something changed or he isn't doing something he wants to do. If people choose to gamble, then they shouldn't be upset when things work out where they lose.

angel

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 15

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 1:49:33 PM

Arpig

Posts: 9930
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From: Increasingly further from reality
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quote:

If that display was going to create a public safety hazard on the 4th of July,

I fail to see how it could have created a public safety hazard, unless the sight of the flag upside down would have driven the crowd into some sort of frenzy of misguided patriotism. Face it, the local authorities knew damn well they couldn't get a court order to stop him from flying the flag upside down so they decided to just take matters into their own hands and illegally removed the flag. If I were the guy, I would get the officers involved charged with trespassing and theft under $5000 at the very least.

Sure the flag being flown upside down would have pissed off some people, but that isn't a reason to remove it. To be honest I find it annoying to see any flags flown at private residences (don't know why, it just annoys the hell out of me), is that a good reason to remove every flag in the area, just to assuage my delicate sensibilities? Of course not, and neither is the potential upset to some people that this flag posed. People need to grow up and be reasonable.

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 16

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 1:59:00 PM

Arpig

Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
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quote:

ORLY. Do you respect collars as a symbol? I know many Doms who would come to blows over someone disrespecting someones collar. Methinks the flag is a bit more important than a collar.

Actually no, I do not particularly respect a collar as a symbol of anything. I do not respect a wedding band either. I will respect what the collar and/or wedding ring represent, but not the things themselves. Throw the collar into the trash and the relationship it is a symbol of is still as valid as it was before. Its the same thing with the flag. Toss the Stars and Stripes (or Maple Leaf or Union Jack) into a dumpster and the country it is a symbol of is unaffected. The symbol is not the thing it symbolises. One cannot disrespect an inaimate object, that goes for rings, collars, flags and crucifixes. They are merely symbols and as such are not worthy of any particular respect. Uncle Sam is also a symbol of the US, yet I doubt anybody would object to a picture of Uncle Sam being dropped on the ground and walked on by passersby. Why is one symbol somehow deserving of more respect than another. Simple, they aren't, they are all equally undeserving of respect. They are mere things, with no intrinsic value in and of themselves, and as such simply cannot be disrespected.

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 17

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 2:28:12 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

ORLY. Do you respect collars as a symbol? I know many Doms who would come to blows over someone disrespecting someones collar. Methinks the flag is a bit more important than a collar.

Actually no, I do not particularly respect a collar as a symbol of anything. I do not respect a wedding band either. I will respect what the collar and/or wedding ring represent, but not the things themselves.

What part of "as a symbol" dont you understand? We are talking about what the flag represents, and the intentional disrespect of the symbol is obviously meant as disrespect for what it represents. Objects can't be disrespected, only their meaning can.

So continue to play semantic games if you like, but your position is inherently inconsistent.

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 18

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 2:41:38 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

People need to grow up and be reasonable.

<sings> And I think to myself
What a wonderful world...

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 19

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 3:05:33 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I think you missed the meat of my post, Arpig. The "fire" in a crowded theater exception may have applied here. Just because you don't "get" the disrespect to the flag doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Some people don't get why the word "nigger" is a problem, either.

If that display was going to create a public safety hazard on the 4th of July, the local authorities may have had every right to do what they did.

That's completely absurd. The reason it's illegal to yell "fire" in a crowded theater is because a reasonable person should expect that doing so would cause a public safety hazard by frightening large groups of people into rushing toward the exit. The key clause in that sentence is "reasonable person." There is no conceivable way any reasonable person could expect that flying a flag upside down for several weeks would suddenly, on the 4th of July, cause people to panic and react in ways that could be hazardous. The very fact that they returned the flag on the 5th of July plainly shows the local Barney Fifes didn't really consider it a hazard, or they would have been derelict in their duties by returning it, wouldn't they? I hope he does sue the fuckers, and cleans out the town's treasury.

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 7/11/2009 3:07:05 PM >

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Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

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Post #: 20

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