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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 8:20:40 AM

RCdc

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Ah, thanks for setting me straight holly! I just misinterpreted the sucking thing.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 8:20:50 AM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

whoa...where did that come from? I could not care less if two homosexuals want to hold hands in public, any more that two heterosexuals.

She didn't quote you and didn't make any implication you were an example specifically of disfavor to public homosexual holding of hands.

She made a parallel of how the exact same argument can just as easily be used to support things which we much more easily think are obviously 'wrong'. A poignant point that should give reflective pause to all of us.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 8:21:53 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

As kids will do, they were horsing around, name calling with 4 letter words, though not in a mean spirited way. When we got behind them, one of the group said "Midget alert!" and the name calling stopped.

Interesting, you thought the "4 letter words" inappropriate for a young one to here but a negative term to reference a short person, "midget" was okay? Another difference between us, I'd rather my kids not hear or curse either, but I'd have a bigger issue with stereotyping. I would have used my standard comment; "My mother is a midget - got a problem with that?". In similar situations, my mother has been black, Muslim, polish, and many other representations when confronted by ignorant prejudice; but never silence or acceptance.

quote:

I fully expect that IF I do something that others will see as offensive in public, I am opening myself up to condemnation for it. Two sides of the coin. If I am within my legal rights and they are within their legal rights, both are acceptable. It is the foundation for our democratic society. Freedom of expression, whether we agree with that expression or not.

Again - Great!

However the hypocrisy I point to is not in judgment it is in using that judgment to rationalize laws that are Prima-Facie (on their face) racist and/or sexist; allowing them to continue.

It's very easy to fight for and support an activity you enjoy and/or participate in privately or public. Advocacy for anyones freedom of choice, even in those things you find abhorrent, requires a focus not on the banal act, but the spirit and example of a consensual individual's liberty and freedom that it represents.

Anyway...That's my rationalization for elephant dung represented as 'art' and beth walking around topless. One I enjoy, one I don't; both deserving of a view from individuals desiring to do so.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 8:34:07 AM

NihilusZero

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Much is made of the "protection" of children when it comes to public displays. And, while I agree that bolstering that innocence is a nice thing, it seems to me as an often employed VIP pass to speedline the credibility of an argument based on morality because it's presumably socially accepted that the act it's referencing is "naughty". Either something is or is not healthy for children.

If exposure to nudity, for instance, is truly unhealthy (aside from the parent's discomfort) then we would need to see if children from countries where nudity is more common show any lingering ill effects. Someone mentioned Burning Man earlier (Kia?) and the presence of children there. It's one thing if some public act of expression could be genuinely harmful to a child (um...public firebreathers?), but the parent projecting a phantom harm onto the child based on personal moral structures is a flawed argument. This isn't like people choosing not to vaccinate their children to measles and potentially endangering the lives of other children

Besides, aren't we big on personal responsibility here? When does the responsibility of the parent to accurately assess what could happen in a public setting that would (phantom) harm their child suddenly get preempted by the general public's supposed responsibility to know exactly what moral construct that specific parent is so as not to violate any ethical preferences/biases?

As I mentioned earlier, I thoroughly understand the part tact and general amiability plays in a social setting and people will inevitably huddle more around those with similar public 'ways', but I don't find any fundamentally sensible argument to propose the restriction of someone's non-harmful freedom of expression based on another's value system even if I would act in line with it by choice (most times) myself.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 7/14/2009 8:38:12 AM >

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 8:34:24 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

I am going to go on to say that I honestly believe people totally do not understand children or young teens at all. People really have no idea just how bright and clever they are. People underestimate children

oh boy...did you hit a nerve! It is so hard to see that they are maturing at a faster rate than we are prepared for...

I have thought about this before. I wonder if it has something to do with some peoples desire to live the childhood they miss - not in a negative way that they never had one - just that when you get older, you have memories for sure, but remembering all of childhood and that fun and freedom we as children had - well, that is something lots of people miss. So they try and make their children realise just how precious that is - because when you get older, those times are gone.
I'm really lucky, I get to act like a teenage much of the time. My family love me, my work isn't at risk, I have a groovy secure relationship and I don't have megapeer pressure as such. So I get to go to gigs and clubs and watch films and skim stones and dress down when I want or put on my heels if I like.

You are right, much of the time people just aren't ready when children mature. They particularly aren't cool about them getting their own brain and starting to think for themselves and have independance either. It's a loss for an adult - a loss that can have some people questioning their usefulness too.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 8:43:23 AM

LaTigresse

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Merc, I think we agree more than we disagree.

I am simply being contrary in saying that as much as I support people doing their thing, I also have to support the freedom to be critical of it. I am simply arguing for the other side.

To be honest, I really don't care what sort of spectacle a person wants to make of themself. That is on them. What I do, and allow, within my own personal space is an entirely different kettle of fish.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 7/14/2009 8:45:39 AM >

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 8:48:15 AM

LadyPact

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

We are all presumably perverts of some sort on this board and WE can't agree on what is and isn't appropriate. I know there are things I would do at Folsom that others might find objectionable and others might find routine.

Go into any fancy restaurant and you are going to find the same thing, sally over on table 12 is going to be appalled that table 13 is having a Gewurztraminer with lamb and everyone at table 13 is shocked that sally would wear that dress in public.

If I was more literate or had time to spend on google, I would find a reference to the same thing in Roman times.

It is a fine line between pushing social boundaries forward (alla Rosa Parks) and being an asshole, the line is always in the eyes of the neighbor, except in hindsight.

Lets just remember, most of us aren't being Rosa Parks but sometimes we are...

I swear as I was catching up reading the last entries, I was thinking this exact thing.

I admit that I'm probably more on the conservative side on this particular issue. It's not especially if I have a right to do a certain thing or not. I can be at dinner with friends and still chose to remove Myself from the area if I'm going to have an after dinner cigarette. I can chose not to have wine with dinner if I know I'm in the company of someone in recovery who isn't comfortable around people who drink. Heck, I even bet I could start a conversation on either of those two topics, and get people just as up in arms about them as this one.

So if we can't agree, those of us who actually enjoy doing these things, how are we supposed to think the public at large is going to? Like it or not, it's still their world, too.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 8:53:49 AM

Smartguyswin

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to be honest, i went through a brief phase where I thought i might be bi or even gay, (relationship problem definitley caused this feeling to get much stronger). i actually hooked up with a guy and had sex with him (first and last time for that), and when he walked me back to the subway station, we kissed. And i felt my face burn in embarrassment that a thousand new yorkers might have seen me kiss another guy on the lips. (tongue action too..)

i really honestly felt wrong. at first i thought it was because i did something unusual in public - although PERFECTLY normal on 8th ave and 23rd street, next to the gay adult store (ironic). i realize it only felt 'wrong' because i just wasn't gay/bi.

yet i feel no shame slapping my girlfriends ass walking down the street, or making out in a public park/beach/street. does that mean its right? who cares... if i can't get ticketed or arrested for it, there's a good chance i won't really care if its done or not.

as for public nudity, leave the laws as they are. half the 'rush' of being naked in public is knowing you can get into trouble for it.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 8:59:28 AM

MarcEsadrian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
How do you feel about the fact rated "G"/PG public play or 'pride' of your passion would most likely have you socially marginalized?

It all depends upon how you present it to the public. If the "play" is mind numbingly cliché and devoid of consideration for others who may not wish to be part of your "scene", you'll be viewed in a negative context. You could say that about many things, in fact. I've professionally filmed my Keeper walking men across intersections of New York like dogs. Couples, families and even the police were spellbound and full of questions on more than one occasion. It's all in the packaging and choice of location. There is a time and place for everything.

Oddly enough, it's the homogenized social reinvention of things I tend to feel estranged from. You will never catch me anywhere near a "leather pride" parade. Sometimes it's the attempt to organize and make things culturally "valid" that feels alienating to me.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 11:37:16 AM

sirsholly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

whoa...where did that come from? I could not care less if two homosexuals want to hold hands in public, any more that two heterosexuals.

She didn't quote you and didn't make any implication you were an example specifically of disfavor to public homosexual holding of hands.

She made a parallel of how the exact same argument can just as easily be used to support things which we much more easily think are obviously 'wrong'. A poignant point that should give reflective pause to all of us.

she? I responded to Merc.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 11:44:40 AM

sirsholly

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quote:

As kids will do, they were horsing around, name calling with 4 letter words, though not in a mean spirited way. When we got behind them, one of the group said "Midget alert!" and the name calling stopped.

quote:

Interesting, you thought the "4 letter words" inappropriate for a young one to here but a negative term to reference a short person, "midget" was okay? Another difference between us, I'd rather my kids not hear or curse either, but I'd have a bigger issue with stereotyping. I would have used my standard comment; "My mother is a midget - got a problem with that?". In similar situations, my mother has been black, Muslim, polish, and many other representations when confronted by ignorant prejudice; but never silence or acceptance.

are you being dense on purpose or did you really miss my point?

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 11:59:16 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

As kids will do, they were horsing around, name calling with 4 letter words, though not in a mean spirited way. When we got behind them, one of the group said "Midget alert!" and the name calling stopped.

quote:

Interesting, you thought the "4 letter words" inappropriate for a young one to here but a negative term to reference a short person, "midget" was okay? Another difference between us, I'd rather my kids not hear or curse either, but I'd have a bigger issue with stereotyping. I would have used my standard comment; "My mother is a midget - got a problem with that?". In similar situations, my mother has been black, Muslim, polish, and many other representations when confronted by ignorant prejudice; but never silence or acceptance.

are you being dense on purpose or did you really miss my point?

No, not at all. Did you miss mine?

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 12:17:07 PM

DemonKia

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FR, after continuing read thru

Huh, there's been a lot of talk about rights -- which talk got me thinking about the right to pursue happiness in the Declaration of Independence . . . . . (Yes, not an actual law of the land, but nonetheless a mission statement that gets dragged out regularly as justification for all kinds of social / political points . . . . .) Pursuing happiness is way more complicated than just 'I do what makes me happy', it's always counterbalanced by not infringing too terribly on what makes the other happy -- a, yes, frequently amorphous & uneasy balance . ... . & it's tough to pursue happiness from a situation of discomfort, so deliberately provoking discomfort in the other can legitimately be seen as infringing on their pursuit of happiness, to me . . . .

& I tend to agree with the idea that talking of 'rights' without equal emphasis on 'responsibilities' is problematic. With the right to provoke comes the responsibility to live with the consequences.

& again, for me, this discussion keeps circling back around the issue that I allow the possibility that the other may take offense at things I find innocuous. I'm willing to fight for the right to take offense, even when I find that offense trivial, irrelevant, or bass-ackwards in the progress of society. I've never found giving offense to be a powerful tool to effect social change; it's far more likely to lead to increasing the disrespect, in my experience . .. . .

& particularly when it comes to 'advancing public acceptance of kinksters', I'm having a serious issue around the notion I'm hearing here that goes something like this: we kinksters make much of the concept of consent in what it is that we do, amongst ourselves. & particularly in explaining to the non-BDSM persons the distinction between SM & abuse, we really rely on this concept of consent. I'm not understanding how abrogating consent in public displays of overtly BDSM behaviors helps 'the cause', or even helps to educate others on WIITWD . . . . . .

& bwahahahaha on all the 'hypocrisy' talk. I'm comfortable with the label 'hypocrite', I've discovered that absolute consistency is over-rated, not to mention a frequent rhetorical gambit to undermine the other side of a debate . . . . . .

&, hey, Merc, specific to you: might wanna change that sig line . .. . .

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 12:52:17 PM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia
& particularly when it comes to 'advancing public acceptance of kinksters', I'm having a serious issue around the notion I'm hearing here that goes something like this: we kinksters make much of the concept of consent in what it is that we do, amongst ourselves. & particularly in explaining to the non-BDSM persons the distinction between SM & abuse, we really rely on this concept of consent. I'm not understanding how abrogating consent in public displays of overtly BDSM behaviors helps 'the cause', or even helps to educate others on WIITWD . . . . . .

This isn't to Kia (the ohsoquotableone) it's just her comment here jumped out, arms waving at the girlie (me) who pretty much has constantly maintained that consent is pretty much a .buzz.buzz.buzz. - and doesn't actually exist.
The entire thread just confirms it.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 12:53:11 PM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

In other words would you being doing it in public if it didn't stir a reaction in others?

20 points. I think that's a quite poignant question in relevance to the "attention whore" vs. "genuine act" aspect.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

My "right" to do a, b and c in public is secondary to my inclination to remain considerate of other people.

While I would agree that this is a decent/friendly mindset to aspire to, it becomes the converse if we leave it to be anything more than a choice we each make (and, even in situations where I would get offended, I find myself scrutinizing whether I should be so). In the interest in furthering a civilization that embraces individuality and freedom, we cannot prioritize the victimization of be offended over personal freedom.

But frankly Nihilus...isn't part of the reason murder is illegal is not just because it is taking away another's right...to life...is because people find it morally offensive?

I go along with freedom too and anyone who has read any of my posts in the Politics section knows how I feel about nannyists. My feelings about freedom are still that I should be free to do what I wish to do while still being considerate of others and their wishes up to a reasonable point. That reasonable point? The point where most of society is comfortable. We are not a democracy, we are a constitutional republic with democratic ideals. Personally, I don't like people exploring their partner's tonsils amd genitals in front of me and my ums or, now that they are grown, in front of me and my grandum. If I notice other people around me who are just as uncomfortable by the display but afraid to speak up, I will do so. To me, it is not just a matter of manners but also a matter of circumspection...my professional life requires that I maintain a certain image in order to have and maintain a practice...and a matter of asking myself that question raised earlier...why am I really doing this in public? Because it is who I am? Because I forgot where I am and am now regretting it? Or because I LIKE to do things that I know shock others?

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 12:55:52 PM

sirsholly

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quote:

I go along with freedom too and anyone who has read any of my posts in the Politics section knows how I feel about nannyists. My feelings about freedom are still that I should be free to do what I wish to do while still being considerate of others and their wishes up to a reasonable point. That reasonable point? The point where most of society is comfortable. We are not a democracy, we are a constitutional republic with democratic ideals. Personally, I don't like people exploring their partner's tonsils amd genitals in front of me and my ums or, now that they are grown, in front of me and my grandum. If I notice other people around me who are just as uncomfortable by the display but afraid to speak up, I will do so. To me, it is not just a matter of manners but also a matter of circumspection...my professional life requires that I maintain a certain image in order to have and maintain a practice...and a matter of asking myself that question raised earlier...why am I really doing this in public? Because it is who I am? Because I forgot where I am and am now regretting it? Or because I LIKE to do things that I know shock others?

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 1:23:25 PM

RumpusParable

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FR

In simplest terms, I see nothing shameful in what I do. If I did, I simply wouldn't be doing it.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 1:29:11 PM

DemonKia

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Well, the.dark, I knew that the issue of consent was subject for several threads worth of debate within 'the BDSM community', but it certainly is a distinction that's regularly made in discussion with both non-BDSMers & n00bs to the 'lifestyle' . . . . . & it seemed pertinent to this particular discussion as I ruminated . . . . .

*chews cud thoughtfully*

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia
& particularly when it comes to 'advancing public acceptance of kinksters', I'm having a serious issue around the notion I'm hearing here that goes something like this: we kinksters make much of the concept of consent in what it is that we do, amongst ourselves. & particularly in explaining to the non-BDSM persons the distinction between SM & abuse, we really rely on this concept of consent. I'm not understanding how abrogating consent in public displays of overtly BDSM behaviors helps 'the cause', or even helps to educate others on WIITWD . . . . . .

This isn't to Kia (the ohsoquotableone) it's just her comment here jumped out, arms waving at the girlie (me) who pretty much has constantly maintained that consent is pretty much a .buzz.buzz.buzz. - and doesn't actually exist.
The entire thread just confirms it.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 1:41:50 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

I've discovered that absolute consistency is over-rated,

I guess you would have to, wouldn't you?

quote:

not to mention a frequent rhetorical gambit to undermine the other side of a debate . . . . . .

No, all it exposes is personal agenda, or on occasion, lack of fundamental knowledge of the subject matter. Both examples illustrated by people in this thread. Feeling "undermined" because rationalized contradicting positions are compared is appropriate.

quote:

&, hey, Merc, specific to you: might wanna change that sig line . .. . .

Why? beth is still "Mary Poppins Perfect". If the retirement is bothering you, consider me "semi" retired; sadistically enjoying the occasions to point out hypocrisy.

quote:

why am I really doing this in public? Because it is who I am? Because I forgot where I am and am now regretting it? Or because I LIKE to do things that I know shock others?

Exactly CD. Judge yourself and not the people you are observing. Similarly to not be pressed into going to an event; don't assume the people who do are doing anything other than what they LIKE doing. Assigning whatever your personal evaluation of the occurrence shouldn't be applied to those participating. Whether that is one day a year at Folsom or every day in your own backyard.

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/14/2009 2:28:03 PM

JonnieBoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian
Oddly enough, it's the homogenized social reinvention of things I tend to feel estranged from. You will never catch me anywhere near a "leather pride" parade. Sometimes it's the attempt to organize and make things culturally "valid" that feels alienating to me.

You're not alone.

FTR :
I think the word "parade" is far too "in yer face" that if "organisers" called a "party" instead and put the atmosphere before the $$££$$££ in spin off's then maybe the alienation (for some)would abate and strangers feel more welcome.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
We are all presumably perverts of some sort on this board

You presumed wrong. (Unless your definition of "perverts" is an unusual one) The use of such words in a debate such as this can only exacerbate intolerance too. Kinky is a mainstream word where I am, "perverted",however,has very negative and arguably sinister connotations. I therefore agree that there's not much chance of agreement here (except about us not being able to agree

)

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