RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it?

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ranja -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 9:15:23 AM)
bit of kink on the streets Like a young couple eating eachothers face of, hands under shirts? Homosexuals strutting about with leather caps on and their buttocks hanging out of their pants? Bundles of keys on show? Street hookers in fishnets on stillettos? Veiled women? A bald man in leather and a slutty woman on high heels heading of into the woods... I love it all Then again sometimes it annoys me...

NihilusZero -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 9:15:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW Much of the discussion about "when will it be ok to..... in public" will be relatively irrelevant in small towns. In places with small, insular populations, unless there is a large, familiar, local population of fetish individuals, it will -never- be commonplace, and is likely to -always- raise eyebrows. Heck, even now there are places where it is difficult to be gay, or transgendered, or anything that isn't Caucasian, with 2.5 kids, a dog, and a white picket fence, and I don't see that changing no matter -how- open the 'mainstream' becomes to alternative expressions of sex, gender, religion, etc. There will always be that shock of the unusual in places where the unusual is just that... unusual. Hopefully, we'll stop feeling that it's ok to KILL people for being unusual, but even then, I suspect that there will always be people who think they have that right to judge someone else's choices and destroy or end the life of the unusual person, and no matter how 'commonplace' something becomes, those kinds of people are probably not going to go away. 50 points + a saddened sigh in reaction to the realism of the point.

LaTigresse -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 9:16:11 AM)
You are entitled to your opinions, regardless of how wrong or rediculous I think they are. What they are, isn't going to change mine. The difference is, they are your opinions. Something that matters not at all to me. Seriously, whatever you think of my opinions, or of me, just doesn't matter. Which is why I said, "I don't care." The only people that matter to me, what they think of me, are the people actually IN my life. The people that know me personally. Those people are in my life because of a mutual agreement. That agreement, usually unspoken, involves similar morals and standards of behaviour. It is how we create our societies both macro and micro. Here, where I live, my manners and standards of behaviour are quite common. We don't have to sit around talking about what is acceptable and what isn't. The few are the exception to the rule.

NihilusZero -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 9:18:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 Bear in mind, everyone, that the website publicdisgrace.com exists because there are countries in which it is totally legal to have "forced" sex in public, complete with all the BDSM regalia you would ever want. So this isn't a theoretical discussion. There are places in the world -- "civilized" places -- where far more is permitted than the bullet points mentioned in the OP. pulls out 'Vacation Locations' notebook Yes? [sm=cool.gif]

NihilusZero -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 9:20:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse You are entitled to your opinions, regardless of how wrong or rediculous I think they are. What they are, isn't going to change mine. The difference is, they are your opinions. Something that matters not at all to me. Then actually making points and substantiating them with evidence, logic and facts doesn't matter to you either? This is precisely the problem. People historically who couldn't be bothered to change their moralities. And, while I certainly would not think that you would use yours or accept yours to the point of where they would actually harm someone else, plenty of people historically have...and it has been one of the biggest disservices to the ethical advancement of our civilizations.

Missokyst -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 9:22:57 AM)
Seems pretty obvious to me. Each community, decade, location, ect. has a set of values that people find acceptable. Things ebb and flow, move and change as the community grows. One of my favorite scenes in a movie showed this clearly, Debra Winger had never eaten lobster, Nick Nolte had. She watched him, she took the time to observe what he did, she looked at the standard he presented and she mimicked him. That is usually what happens within a community. Over the last several decades I have watched as sex before marriage became the norm, divorce was accepted, kissing in public was not even looked at twice, it is no longer suprising to see couples playfully hit each others behind in public, or to see kids in goth wear. Change does happen, that is definite. It is not offensive in general but in the context of the environment you are in at the time. I still blush, HUGE. I still move 2 or 10 steps away when I am embarrassed. I am a tanned woman and my blush is dark deep maroon.. I do not want to be glowing like a beet lamp simply because someone wants to show kink in a place where kink is not warranted. Kyst quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Obviously. I have no problem with this. I'm only choosing to dissect the reasons why any of us would even view something as "offensive" in the first place.

LaTigresse -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 9:27:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse You are entitled to your opinions, regardless of how wrong or rediculous I think they are. What they are, isn't going to change mine. The difference is, they are your opinions. Something that matters not at all to me. Then actually making points and substantiating them with evidence, logic and facts doesn't matter to you either? This is precisely the problem. People historically who couldn't be bothered to change their moralities. And, while I certainly would not think that you would use yours or accept yours to the point of where they would actually harm someone else, plenty of people historically have...and it has been one of the biggest disservices to the ethical advancement of our civilizations. One of us is having a disconnect here. In this thread I've seen very few evidence or facts. I've been talking about MY feelings, MY personal morality, MY standards of behaviour and what I allow in MY personal space. I could give a flying fuck what the neighbours do in their home but do care what they do in MY house. I have a choice whether or not to go to their house and witness their shit, I also have a choice whether or not they will do their shit in my house. Outside of their house and my house, if they decide they want to tear their clothes off and fuck like bunnies in Walmart, I will raise an eyebrow and avoid that aisle because I don't want to watch. I'm not going to deny them making the effort. I just won't watch the trainwreck. In addition, the experience would probably cause me to decline an invitation to their house and never extend them one to mine. I will not tell them the why's or preach to them the error of their ways. That is, to me, the difference.

NihilusZero -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 9:27:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst I do not want to be glowing like a beet lamp simply because someone wants to show kink in a place where kink is not warranted. If we all followed lock-step with this mentality, we'd probably be getting locked up in mental facilities for our mere existence on this site (and what that surely must mean) because no progression in the realm of public ethics and tolerance/understanding would have ever happened.

NihilusZero -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 9:29:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I could give a flying fuck what the neighbours do in their home but do care what they do in MY house. We're not talking about their house or yours. Public venues. quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Outside of their house and my house, if they decide they want to tear their clothes off and fuck like bunnies in Walmart, I will raise an eyebrow and avoid that aisle because I don't want to watch. I'm not going to deny them making the effort. I just won't watch the trainwreck. Then it seems we're not in disagreement.

Bella1965 -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 9:57:59 AM)
G'afternoon all: quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah I stopped caring a long time ago. If you are an adult you should know to look away when you see something that bothers you. If you aren't then the adult responsible for you needs to be Responsible for you. Here is my point. I have to watch bratty, bitchy, shitnosed, douche bag children talk back to their parents why they try to REASON with them. I have to watch while a Husband ignores his Wife who is struggling with said children. I have to watch Two Men Kiss, because it's their RIGHT to be them. I have to watch Two Women Kiss, because it's their RIGHT to be them. I have to watch a Woman Breast Feed her child anywhere she feels like. I have to watch our Politicians Rape America, and know I can't do anything to change it until it's too late. I have to watch MANY THINGS I DON'T WANT TO SEE. So Fuck Em, I could give a shit less if something I do Offends you and if I get arrested then so be it. But I'm tired of the idea that my rights to be who I am are somehow less important than anyone else's and that I am somehow supposed to be more responsible than them because of the nature of the lifestyle I engage in. Or the worst of all, that I am SUPPOSED to make sure everyone in the world who could ever possible be affected my by actions CONSENTS to me doing it. No Offense I will NEVER call my Wifes Gynecologist before I stick something in her pussy, nor do I think ANYONE should feel they have to. Steel Zomfgosh, I think I just fell in love... quote: ORIGINAL: justme1980 Well how one chooses to live their life is up them My paperwork says I am a natural born citizen of this country and thus am accorded certain privileges some being life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and freedom of expression my lifestyle choices are my pursuit of happiness as well as my acts of expression I do not hide my lifestyle from anyone, I do not justify it to anyone, nor will I shield it from anyone. For people that are uncomfortable with it, well if you don't like it, move I tolerate vanilla people and their quirks and I demand the same from them BINGO. Someone else "gets" it. On a side note. If I find behavior offensive, I distance myself from it or look elsewhere. That is also a right. However, if I'm in a restaurant or some other public venue where I'm paying for a service or product, I do not tolerate screaming brats or public nudity, even for breast feeding. If a pointed look is insufficient, I will politely ask said individuals to cease and desist. No one needs to be subjected to rudeness when they are shelling out funds for satisfaction. Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella

kiwisub12 -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 10:02:55 AM)
I wear a collar in public, as i have in the past worn a wedding ring My Sir smacks me on the butt in public, in one instance, to the evident delight of the man walking behind us. These things were fun and to my mind inoffensive, especially the smack since it was obviously fun in intent. Would i want to be punished in public - no, nor would i have wanted to have a serious arguement with my husband in public. My private life is definitely my PRIVATE life, and i have no desire to change that. I have no desire to see anyone else go futher into the grey areas of public acceptable behaviour that i am comfortable with, but then, i have no desire to be a trail blazer for more public freedoms for the bdsm practisioners. I don't see any good reason for me to push my sexuality on anyone else. I also think that the media makes more strides for public acceptance of bdsm than any single individual can, as they push out past homosexuality to find the next new shocking thing to put into tv shows and movies. The public finds the idea of "the new shocking thing" interesting, intreaging , and ultimately, ho-hum boring and whats the next new interesting idea. So if you want to make bdsm really accepted, find a hollywood writer, corrupt him/her to the bdsm one true way, have them write bdsm inspired characters into their shows, and wait about 10 years. Then you can be free to leash, collar, shackle, chain, rope, whip or cane in public anyone you want. And no-one will raise an eyebrow. And what have you gained? Very little i think. Is it really such a big deal to be able to trot your sub on a leash and not have someone look away? . Instead of treating the symptom - the distain or misunderstanding the reasons behind the leash, perhaps people should look to disseminating correct information about power exchanges to the public, so the actions have a grounding of knowledge of the life style. I would rather be able to tell friends that i am in a power exchange relationship than describe the behaviours. OK, i'm rambling, but as a last thought - i think more acceptance of homosexuality came when science declared that there was a scientific basis for it than from all the leather bound men and short haired women kissing in public ever gained. People like to think that they are tolerant of behaviours that have a "reason", than those that appear to be purely random. If they have the knowledge or "science" behind our behaviours, then they can feel smug in their acceptance of our lifes.

SteelofUtah -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 10:06:02 AM)
My Confussion, Define Kink. Sure having my wife wear a strap-on while I throw Little Pickles at her and call her a "Monkey Whore" is intended to express an extreme desire that is most obviously shared in a private place that we share. HOWEVER, Spanking my wife in Passing would be considered Kinky because of the nature of our relationship, but spanking is second nature and something that I always do even to NON-Kinky People. Andi likes wearing her collar in public and is offten asked about it, and depending on who is asking she will explain in honesty. Some people aren't asking it's meaning but rather why she is wearing such a thing. I know Gothic people who walk around with Collars and Leashes ALL THE TIME. I also know that Fashion Magazines show Corsettes and Shackles and in a few magazines I have been Ball Gags and Posture Collars used as High Fashion. So where exactly is the line drawn? IN this day and age we are confronted with images ALL THE TIME that are disturbing and non consentual. However I wish to discuss the non-consentual part because I believe it is only non-consentual if the individual is unable to look away. If I am FORCING them to look at me. If they look and choose not to look away tell me how they have not consented to watch such a thing? So where is the line and who draws it? Steel

Esinn -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 10:09:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly quote: Still a long way off in most towns but I think society is pushing closer to the point where it is acceptable to see F/F or M/M couples show affection for each other compared to the distant past. * Partner on leash * Playful but firm spanking * Gagged * Partner following behind in an obvious submissive posture * Putting a well written and tasteful flyer next to another in a store window * Pro Dom leaving a business card with others * ... * .... i have no desire to be exposed to anyones kink in public. I do not care :P Really though Holly you /we / us are exposed to all sorts of things in public. Possibly we desire some of them or possibly we do not. I feel ya though.

LadyPact -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 10:32:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact My personal expression comes secondary to harming or confusing someone. The fact that you choose to make exceptions for family is sensible to a certain degree. I don't really see a problem with it. But there is no way to logically back up the idea that offending someone's morality by being able to be free to act as we wish is "harm" at all. Harm does not magically manifest just when someone says they are harmed. And, if they are, the harming agent is internal (restrictive morality imposed upon and expected from others) not external. But, of course there are reasons in practice that we should curb our expressive enthusiasm of who we are and, below, you go into a rather important one: quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact However, unless I'm mistaken, at this time, you do not have a sub who that, by doing so, would risk losing just a couple years short of a two decade long military career. That is not only his current employment, but his retirement compensation and medical care as well. In addition, it's loss would rob him of his fulfillment of serving his country in the manner that means so much to him. And a serviceman or servicewoman could be just as much in peril if they were to disclose their homosexuality. I'm not saying that sometimes, it can be best for the individuals to play along with stone age moralities because the rest of the planet hasn't caught up yet in the ethics department, but in theory I think we should all be able to agree that those restrictions themselves are the thing that is inherently "bad mannered". I don't know if I'd even call them bad mannered. I'd say they are what they are at present but I also know they won't always be that way. Yes, just as much, if not more peril, to disclose homosexuality. Unless I'm mistaken, it wasn't originally designed to cover S/m. To date, it still doesn't cover poly. Now, that word of disclose that you use is very important, because it's the crux of the difference between public and private. It may lend to the discussion. The don't ask part doesn't just mean verbalization. It also means don't seek it out. In other words, clip's presence at a local munch or a BDSM related event doesn't violate this rule because someone without a specific intent of doing so, would not necessarily see him. Even at kinky venues, the activities aren't seen as public, because it's not in the general public. It's only those of us who wish to be there to witness whatever it is that he's doing. The same works in reverse for the don't tell portion. If he would be doing the very same thing, but change the location, where it would not be necessary for a third party to view it because they sought it out, and instead would stumble across it, that is non verbalized disclosure. The person who would see said act didn't go looking for it, but it was something they viewed, just the same. I do happen to enjoy having My boy leashed at certain venues. In fact, he's wearing his leash on one of My profile pictures on another site. I do see it as something other than just a thing I do for the shock factor of others. Yet, I know there are those who do not agree with My thoughts on the matter. Even those who identify as kinky themselves.

LadyPact -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 11:01:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah My Confussion, Define Kink. Sure having my wife wear a strap-on while I throw Little Pickles at her and call her a "Monkey Whore" is intended to express an extreme desire that is most obviously shared in a private place that we share. HOWEVER, Spanking my wife in Passing would be considered Kinky because of the nature of our relationship, but spanking is second nature and something that I always do even to NON-Kinky People. Andi likes wearing her collar in public and is offten asked about it, and depending on who is asking she will explain in honesty. Some people aren't asking it's meaning but rather why she is wearing such a thing. I know Gothic people who walk around with Collars and Leashes ALL THE TIME. I also know that Fashion Magazines show Corsettes and Shackles and in a few magazines I have been Ball Gags and Posture Collars used as High Fashion. So where exactly is the line drawn? IN this day and age we are confronted with images ALL THE TIME that are disturbing and non consentual. However I wish to discuss the non-consentual part because I believe it is only non-consentual if the individual is unable to look away. If I am FORCING them to look at me. If they look and choose not to look away tell me how they have not consented to watch such a thing? So where is the line and who draws it? Steel I have to admit, clip is the same as your andi. (My regards to her, btw.) The joke that I tend to make is the only times clip doesn't wear his leather collar is the shower, work, and when we go to our local meet and greet. (Vanilla location, no fetish items.) Between what you wrote here and My prior response, it made Me think of something that I may be seeing more clearly. It might be the very part of people asking him when he wears his collar in public what it is that contributes to the fact of why he loves it so much. What I mean is, I know he loves the collar and what it represents in it's own right. Still when he's out and about and vanilla folks ask him about it, that's one of the few times that he is allowed to tell anyone new.

DreamyLadySnow -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 11:01:39 AM)
If I see people doing things that offend me, yes I can look away. But to do as they do, makes me like them. That's a choice. I choose not to. Exposing anyone's kids to sexual behavior is inappropriate, imho. As for the comments about breast feeding, that's what breasts are for. We sexualize them, but they were created to nourish babies. I am baffled that people think women breast feed anytime they 'feel' like it. They do it when the baby is hungry..omg..

DoreanGrey -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 11:28:56 AM)
I don't post in the forums often, and admittedly I've not completely followed this thread, but a comment here caught my eye so I simply felt compelled to say: Everything that we do every day exposes people and children to various forms of sexuality. From the clothes we wear, the advertisements on TV and Billboards, Movies, TV, and music we enjoy, and so forth. It's nature, it's instinctive. Someone wearing a collar in public is no different than someone wearing a wedding band - it's a symbolic gesture, it's just the collar is taken into a deeper context by those of us in the know. If someone is staying within the same boundaries as anyone else on the street as far as appearance, does it matter if their attire and actions reflect that of someone who is involved in BDSM or someone who is "Vanilla"? I think not, and if you feel that someone reflecting their BDSM Lifestyle in a public fashion is crossing the line then you're self discriminating; do you think that the attractive girl wearing the high business heels, mid-length skirt, and fitted blouse is wearing them for any other reason than it's appropriate AND they reflect her sexuality by making her appear more attractive? It's not like this conversation is about chaining someone spread eagle to the school's jungle gym and flogging them while calling them names! It seems to be more of a question of what's appropriate to wear publicly and symbolicly - and that, I never once thought, needed any discussion (barring someone running around wearing nothing but a leather strap harness!) LoL [sm=duck.gif]

LotusSong -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 11:29:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst BINGO! Why the heck does anyone think we want to see their crap? Because, if we are honest with ourselves about the tolerance that WIITWD is supposed to engender, we realize it's only "crap" to me or you. The more "common" a thing is... the more 'VANILLA" (gasp!) it becomes.

SteelofUtah -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 11:32:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DreamyLadySnow As for the comments about breast feeding, that's what breasts are for. We sexualize them, but they were created to nourish babies. I am baffled that people think women breast feed anytime they 'feel' like it. They do it when the baby is hungry..omg.. See and I agree with you on this subject I see that is what Breasts are for. The Point is that NOT EVERYONE sees it this way. So If we are going to argue the fact that not everyone is okay with kink and thus we should not force them to be subjected to it. It should work in reverse as well. If not EVERYONE is okay with breast feeding then it is wrong to do it in public. My Point is to bring up the Hypocricy of the situation. If it is okay for a Baby to feed on her mothers Breasts why then should it be wrong for a Dom to have a Lactating slave put breast milk in his coffee? Is the same purpose not being met? In this day and age it is certainly possible for a Mother express her breast milk before going out in public, just as it is possible for a D/s Couple to keep thier Kink Inside, However if we are not going to hold one thing that has become a social stigma to the same level of contemp that we hold another all we do is prove to be Hypocrits. I have no problem with women breastfeeding, but I also have no problem with a couple expressing themselves in whatever way makes most sence to them. It should be noted however that I am also about being responsible for EDUCATING the youth on what they see, not just preying they never see it. quote: ORIGINAL: DreamyLadySnow If I see people doing things that offend me, yes I can look away. But to do as they do, makes me like them. That's a choice. I choose not to. Exposing anyone's kids to sexual behavior is inappropriate, imho. So you are saying you don't think children should watch anything but "G" rated Cartoons and the news is certainly OFF LIMITS. Think about all the things that other peoples kids are subjected to every day. Have you never driven by two dogs going at it or a horse peeing? I was always aware of what things were and what was going on, I was also aware that this knowledge made my parents VERY uncomfortable, which I always thought was strange because nothing about it made me uncomfortable. Steel

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/12/2009 11:39:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Esinn How do you feel about the fact rated "G"/PG public play or 'pride' of your passion would most likely have you socially marginalized? I wouldn't do anything in front of others or their children that I wouldn't do in front of my parents or my children. I don't feel "marginalized" at all. quote: Partner on leash Playful but firm spanking Gagged Putting a well written and tasteful flyer next to another in a store window Pro Dom leaving a business card with others I would not do any of these at the mall or walking down the street. To inflict my kink on an unconsenting public is discourteous and, frankly, appalling. I expect the same public courtesy from others. quote: Partner following behind in an obvious submissive posture Define "obvious submissive posture." Are we talking about following a pace or two behind carrying bags or following on hands and knees? The first can, and often is, construed as gentlemanly conduct. For a female s-type, it can, and often is, construed as a conservative but traditional relationship if the D-type is male. With F/f couple, I doubt anyone would notice. However, the second (hands & knees) can't ever be seen as anything but strange if it's done amid the general public. I'd expect others to display common courtesy by refraining from inflicting their kink on me, just as I would do for them. quote: Parents discipline children publicly. Obviously people dress themselves to attract attention or call attention to this or that. Tasteful breast feeding is allowed. Go to any college town 'slutty' attire is always accepted. I do not spank my children in public and parents who have done so have been reported to the authorities. Women are not allowed to go topless. No one is allowed to appear in attire that exposes genital areas. Even breastfeeding mothers are required to keep nipples covered in many places and some have been asked to cover up or leave the public area and adjourn to a more private area that has been provided by the establishment in question. There are such things as public decency laws. Fetish attire at the mall or the market is out of place and inappropriate. Again, save it for the fetish ball. I do not consent for others to inflict their kinks on me or my family. I'm certainly not going to inflict mine on them. That's just tacky. Edited for typos.

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